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Taking down statues

watsup

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Yes, I think that the practice of tearing down statues has gone too far. Christopher Columbus? Thomas Jefferson? Really?

We are all victims of the culture of the times in which we are live, and that applies to the two listed above. It was expected to enslave and mistreat those natives that "civilized" people came across in the days of "discovering the world", and the ownership of slaves on the estates of the South was quite accepted among a large part of the populace in the late 18th century. That does not make it right, of course, but neither does it downgrade the accomplishments of sailing across an ocean to find a different continent, or being a prime mover in the development and inception of a new nation based on democratic principles. That is why the statues are there, and that is why they should be honored. Which is not to say that those actions that were wrong should not be pointed out. They should.

But what about the statues dedicated to the Confederacy. Were they not also victims of a "nation" and a culture dedicated to the maintenance and extension of the scourge of slavery. Indeed they were. Both the soldiers and the generals were fighting for "the honor of the nation". The difference, of course, is that those particular statues were erected specifically in order to honor the "nation" that went to war to preserve slavery, and that is quite different from finding a continent of which the European peoples of the time were unaware, or of starting a new democratic nation.

So each statue would have to be judged on its merits. Many want to take down statues because the person uttered some racist statements, but this was in an era when the n-word was quite accepted, even in polite society. It was during the apartheid era of the nation when blacks were simply treated as unimportant to the fabric of the nation. Those utterances were often made by people who did not even realize what they were saying and who were, indeed, victims of a CULTURE of racism in which the very great majority of the nation participated.

Again, this does not mean that we should not learn from the mistakes of the past and make every effort to change them for the positive, but I simply don't think that the people who lived in those times should have to shoulder all the blame for them.

Is being a victim of culture still a problem? Of course it is. We still have a culture of racism in which a great many, if not most, right-wingers and Republicans participate while seeing themselves as free of racism because that is what their FOX/Rush culture tells them. And we have a culture of Trumpism in which the "president" can do virtually anything he wants in the way of anti-democratic and personal corruption without the slightest bit of outrage from right-winger Republicans, and again the FOX/Rush/fundie culture tells them that's perfectly acceptable and even "patriotic".
 

Exquisitor

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Yes, I think that the practice of tearing down statues has gone too far. Christopher Columbus? Thomas Jefferson? Really?

We are all victims of the culture of the times in which we are live, and that applies to the two listed above. It was expected to enslave and mistreat those natives that "civilized" people came across in the days of "discovering the world", and the ownership of slaves on the estates of the South was quite accepted among a large part of the populace in the late 18th century. That does not make it right, of course, but neither does it downgrade the accomplishments of sailing across an ocean to find a different continent, or being a prime mover in the development and inception of a new nation based on democratic principles. That is why the statues are there, and that is why they should be honored. Which is not to say that those actions that were wrong should not be pointed out. They should.

But what about the statues dedicated to the Confederacy. Were they not also victims of a "nation" and a culture dedicated to the maintenance and extension of the scourge of slavery. Indeed they were. Both the soldiers and the generals were fighting for "the honor of the nation". The difference, of course, is that those particular statues were erected specifically in order to honor the "nation" that went to war to preserve slavery, and that is quite different from finding a continent of which the European peoples of the time were unaware, or of starting a new democratic nation.

So each statue would have to be judged on its merits. Many want to take down statues because the person uttered some racist statements, but this was in an era when the n-word was quite accepted, even in polite society. It was during the apartheid era of the nation when blacks were simply treated as unimportant to the fabric of the nation. Those utterances were often made by people who did not even realize what they were saying and who were, indeed, victims of a CULTURE of racism in which the very great majority of the nation participated.

Again, this does not mean that we should not learn from the mistakes of the past and make every effort to change them for the positive, but I simply don't think that the people who lived in those times should have to shoulder all the blame for them.

Is being a victim of culture still a problem? Of course it is. We still have a culture of racism in which a great many, if not most, right-wingers and Republicans participate while seeing themselves as free of racism because that is what their FOX/Rush culture tells them. And we have a culture of Trumpism in which the "president" can do virtually anything he wants in the way of anti-democratic and personal corruption without the slightest bit of outrage from right-winger Republicans, and again the FOX/Rush/fundie culture tells them that's perfectly acceptable and even "patriotic".

They're pleasing Muslims.

We shouldn't have these idols in our landscapes, just think what they do to Allah.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Most of the statues were constructed waaaay after the Civil War, most even 100 years after and they were usually constructed during times of racial unrest.

There's nothing holy about these statues, they're decoration. We as a society get to decide who we choose to glorify, just as the Germans ripped down all the Hitler statues. It has nothing to do with preserving history and everything to do with glorifying people who don't deserve it.

Cry me a ****ing river.
 

Deuce

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Literally claiming slavers were the victims instead of, you know, the slaves. :lamo

Who else should I decide not to judge? Vikings were expected to kill and rape and pillage! Totally fine! Products of their time!

You know, the Spanish Inquisition was really just victims of their culture. All those people they tortured to death are just as bad as their killers if you think about it.
 

Deuce

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Yes, Thomas Jefferson, really. He repeatedly raped a slave and then enslaved his own children. If I can't judge that just what the **** can I judge, ever?
 

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Yes, Thomas Jefferson, really. He repeatedly raped a slave and then enslaved his own children. If I can't judge that just what the **** can I judge, ever?

Just one?
 

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Care to elaborate?

Not really.

I can't think of anything to say.

No, the False Prophet really screwed up like every body else except Benjamin Franklin, maybe he wasn't so unlucky to own slaves.

The Law is though that which you manifest.

After doing that, you are nothing but to be shooed into the Kingdom, what's going to keep you in some ignorant embodiment from being a whore or child molester and end up in prison?

Think what it does to your commands.

So fitting though as Isaiah 41 of the Bible calls him an abomination.
 

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Yes, Thomas Jefferson, really. He repeatedly raped a slave and then enslaved his own children. If I can't judge that just what the **** can I judge, ever?

Wrong.
It wasn't illegal to have sex with your slaves.
 

Bodi

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Yes, I think that the practice of tearing down statues has gone too far. Christopher Columbus? Thomas Jefferson? Really?

We are all victims of the culture of the times in which we are live, and that applies to the two listed above. It was expected to enslave and mistreat those natives that "civilized" people came across in the days of "discovering the world", and the ownership of slaves on the estates of the South was quite accepted among a large part of the populace in the late 18th century. That does not make it right, of course, but neither does it downgrade the accomplishments of sailing across an ocean to find a different continent, or being a prime mover in the development and inception of a new nation based on democratic principles. That is why the statues are there, and that is why they should be honored. Which is not to say that those actions that were wrong should not be pointed out. They should.

But what about the statues dedicated to the Confederacy. Were they not also victims of a "nation" and a culture dedicated to the maintenance and extension of the scourge of slavery. Indeed they were. Both the soldiers and the generals were fighting for "the honor of the nation". The difference, of course, is that those particular statues were erected specifically in order to honor the "nation" that went to war to preserve slavery, and that is quite different from finding a continent of which the European peoples of the time were unaware, or of starting a new democratic nation.

So each statue would have to be judged on its merits. Many want to take down statues because the person uttered some racist statements, but this was in an era when the n-word was quite accepted, even in polite society. It was during the apartheid era of the nation when blacks were simply treated as unimportant to the fabric of the nation. Those utterances were often made by people who did not even realize what they were saying and who were, indeed, victims of a CULTURE of racism in which the very great majority of the nation participated.

Again, this does not mean that we should not learn from the mistakes of the past and make every effort to change them for the positive, but I simply don't think that the people who lived in those times should have to shoulder all the blame for them.

Is being a victim of culture still a problem? Of course it is. We still have a culture of racism in which a great many, if not most, right-wingers and Republicans participate while seeing themselves as free of racism because that is what their FOX/Rush culture tells them. And we have a culture of Trumpism in which the "president" can do virtually anything he wants in the way of anti-democratic and personal corruption without the slightest bit of outrage from right-winger Republicans, and again the FOX/Rush/fundie culture tells them that's perfectly acceptable and even "patriotic".

Christopher Columbus was a racist xenophobic slave running piece of ****... Jefferson? That might be going to far though...
 

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Wrong.
It wasn't illegal to have sex with your slaves.

So what was it really?

Did he seduce the slaves?

Did they seduce him?

God surely did.

Did he say, "Honey, I'm going to take you?"

Did she surrender? Was it Love? It was some love.

Did she have another husband?

Did she like being a slave concubine?

Think of how he's responsible for sex trafficking and his economic model of selling tobacco to finance the Revolution?
 

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Illegality has nothing to do with it. It was a product of the scourge of slavery and that made it wrong.

Wrong. I twas not rape.
 

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Illegality has nothing to do with it. It was a product of the scourge of slavery and that made it wrong.

Wrong, nothing is wrong, but everything has consequences.

As a consequence, you're known for this and the great and shining land has this stain on it forever.
 

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So what was it really?

Did he seduce the slaves?

Did they seduce him?

God surely did.

Did he say, "Honey, I'm going to take you?"

Did she surrender? Was it Love? It was some love.

Did she have another husband?

Did she like being a slave concubine?

Think of how he's responsible for sex trafficking and his economic model of selling tobacco to finance the Revolution?
Apparently you are letting yuremotions drive yoru position.
It literally was not illegal.
As it was not illegal it was not rape.
You could not rape your property.
Your slaves were literally there to do with as you please.

Facts do not care about your feelings.
 

watsup

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Apparently you are letting yuremotions drive yoru position.
It literally was not illegal.
As it was not illegal it was not rape.
You could not rape your property.
Your slaves were literally there to do with as you please.

Facts do not care about your feelings.


Yes, “not illegal” is the canard that you right-wing racists are hiding behind in order to somehow justify what meets the definition of rape, whether it was supposedly “legal” or not. Shame on you, if you had any.
 

Crovax

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They're pleasing Muslims.

We shouldn't have these idols in our landscapes, just think what they do to Allah.

atwsFuZN4KMfPyosTWh59UtMgp7zlcKMQZ1JpDc6gHqtRxCsEFSBy0UJ0h4RrvuXyaqTG1KOWjLMjDkqePU8XIjjWhVYIJJo6JlfFiCLLoISxjtDb52DtFI8MtstwQddpSCGghoS3lblYKkUNeQll9pRHglE64SyOVA
 

watsup

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Christopher Columbus was a racist xenophobic slave running piece of ****... Jefferson? That might be going to far though...


Yes, he was a victim of his culture. Basically, all of us are. He still has the courage to venture into the unknown and he should be honored for that part of his life.
 

Excon

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So tell me, what was it?

Did they run off in the hay-barn a the hot of each-other and make passionate love?
I can tell you what it wasn't.
And I already told you that your slaves were literally there to do with as you please.
Anythign else is as irrelevant as the slave was.
 

Crovax

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Yes, “not illegal” is the canard that you right-wing racists are hiding behind in order to somehow justify what meets the definition of rape, whether it was supposedly “legal” or not. Shame on you, if you had any.

He’s not justifying it he’s simply pointing out the issue with your terminology. Rape connotates an illegal act, similar to the difference between killing and murder.
 

watsup

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Apparently you are letting yuremotions drive yoru position.
It literally was not illegal.
As it was not illegal it was not rape.
You could not rape your property.
Your slaves were literally there to do with as you please.

Facts do not care about your feelings.


Actually the FACT is that rape is a DEFINITION of one person having sex with another person when some sort of force or undue coercion is involved. In this case, as you say, it was done because the male OWNED the female, and she thus did not have the real ability to turn him down. It thus meets the DEFINITION of rape, whether it was “legal” or not.
 

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Yes, “not illegal” is the canard that you right-wing racists are hiding behind in order to somehow justify what meets the definition of rape, whether it was supposedly “legal” or not. Shame on you, if you had any.

iLOL
Wrong.
I spoke to facts.
Facts do not care about your feelings.

Things were different then. Period, The standards then, are not the standards of now.

You might want to try and see things as they were then and not through the lenses of the future.
 

watsup

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He’s not justifying it he’s simply pointing out the issue with your terminology. Rape connotates an illegal act, similar to the difference between killing and murder.


Problem is both he and you are wrong. Rape connotes one person having sex with another through force or undue coercion, whether “illegal” or not. I have seen this excuse before. It had been spread around as a meme by the right-wing Republican racist community.
 

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Problem is both he and you are wrong. Rape connotes one person having sex with another through force or undue coercion, whether “illegal” or not. I have seen this excuse before. It had been spread around as a meme by the right-wing Republican racist community.

Have you seen a dictionary though?

“unlawful sexual activity”

Rape | Definition of Rape by Merriam-Webster
 
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