Take the Debt Ceiling Off the Table [W:70]

[washunut]

Even if we don't default, we could lose our credit rating even if it looks like we might default. We're the global reserve currency; we absolutely cannot do this.

We won't lose our credit rating due to political nonsense. It was lowered because our debt levels rose.

 

[Helix]

We won't lose our credit rating due to political nonsense. It was lowered because our debt levels rose.

if a default looks imminent, we might be downgraded. if we actually default, we will be downgraded. this would at least cause the interest on the debt to increase, creating the largest effective tax increase in modern history. at worst, it would additionally result in the world looking at other currencies as potential global reserve.

we can't default, and the possibility of default must be taken off of the table entirely.

 

[Vern]

We won't lose our credit rating due to political nonsense. It was lowered because our debt levels rose.

sorry wash, a simple review of the actual facts disproves your 'narrative'. Our debt level rises every year and the worst of the Bush Deficits was behind us. But one party (and you know which one) played games with the debt ceiling. And that was a major reason for the down grade

"The company, one of three major agencies that offer advice to investors in debt securities, said it was cutting its rating of long-term federal debt to AA+, one notch below the top grade of AAA. It described the decision as a judgment about the nation’s leaders, writing that “the gulf between the political parties” had reduced its confidence in the government’s ability to manage its finances. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/business/us-debt-downgraded-by-sp.html?_r=0

so as long as people like you continue to make excuses for the republican antics they have no incentive to act responsibly.

 

[washunut]

if a default looks imminent, we might be downgraded. if we actually default, we will be downgraded. this would at least cause the interest on the debt to increase, creating the largest effective tax increase in modern history. at worst, it would additionally result in the world looking at other currencies as potential global reserve.

we can't default, and the possibility of default must be taken off of the table entirely.

We won't default and we won't lose our credit rating. Rating agencies would be toast if they downgrade us.

 

[washunut]

sorry wash, a simple review of the actual facts disproves your 'narrative'. Our debt level rises every year and the worst of the Bush Deficits was behind us. But one party (and you know which one) played games with the debt ceiling. And that was a major reason for the down grade

"The company, one of three major agencies that offer advice to investors in debt securities, said it was cutting its rating of long-term federal debt to AA+, one notch below the top grade of AAA. It described the decision as a judgment about the nation’s leaders, writing that “the gulf between the political parties” had reduced its confidence in the government’s ability to manage its finances. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/business/us-debt-downgraded-by-sp.html?_r=0

so as long as people like you continue to make excuses for the republican antics they have no incentive to act responsibly.

I am very tired of your silly taunts. We were downgraded by one of three rating agencies with the deficits as a % of GDP very high with no expectation of getting it to sustainable levels ( approximating the growth of GDP). Unless we do away with sequestor we should not be downgraded.

 

[Helix]

We won't default and we won't lose our credit rating. Rating agencies would be toast if they downgrade us.

i think you might not be fully taking into consideration how the rest of the world looks at us. people vote with their money, as does the globe. if the banker is routinely drunk in the streets exposing himself, the town begins to look at other banks. also, much of the rest of the world (including our largest foreign creditor) has a cultural value of saving face and keeping up appearances. we aren't doing that. we've chosen instead to air our grievances on the Maury Povitch show. we look ridiculous, and that might matter.

 

[washunut]

i think you might not be fully taking into consideration how the rest of the world looks at us. people vote with their money, as does the globe. if the banker is routinely drunk in the streets exposing himself, the town begins to look at other banks. also, much of the rest of the world (including our largest foreign creditor) has a cultural value of saving face and keeping up appearances. we aren't doing that. we've chosen instead to air our grievances on the Maury Povitch show. we look ridiculous, and that might matter.

Look I am as unhappy as everyone else by the embarrassment that is our current government. That being said, the EU is not in great shape, Japan is an economic mess, China does not have an open currency, Russian economy is mostly based on commodities. So let's be real about what can take the place of the dollar as a reserve currency, or what our rating should be based on where the rest of the developed world is.

 

[Helix]

Look I am as unhappy as everyone else by the embarrassment that is our current government. That being said, the EU is not in great shape, Japan is an economic mess, China does not have an open currency, Russian economy is mostly based on commodities. So let's be real about what can take the place of the dollar as a reserve currency, or what our rating should be based on where the rest of the developed world is.

just because everyone is falling off of the cliff doesn't mean that there isn't a ground below.

 

[Vern]

I am very tired of your silly taunts. We were downgraded by one of three rating agencies with the deficits as a % of GDP very high with no expectation of getting it to sustainable levels ( approximating the growth of GDP). Unless we do away with sequestor we should not be downgraded.

I'm sorry you think me posting facts is taunting but its just the facts. Your brain creates silly 'narratives' to shave the rough edges off the facts and thus has to create even more silly 'narratives' as more facts are posted. And the fact remains that S&P clearly stated its lack of confidence in the parties working together as a factor. And thats a result of republicans playing games. all the whining in the world cant change that.

 

[cpwill]

I know of no budget proposal, including the Ryan budget that gets to balance this fiscal year. So we can debate what a new limit should be, but we need an increase.

Certainly. And in the context of that increase, we need to bend the growth of our debt downwards. So sure, if Democrats want to pass the Ryan budget, I'm fine with using that to take the debt limit off the table.

 

[head of joaquin]

I am very tired of your silly taunts. We were downgraded by one of three rating agencies with the deficits as a % of GDP very high with no expectation of getting it to sustainable levels ( approximating the growth of GDP). Unless we do away with sequestor we should not be downgraded.

I see you're still propagating this tea party lie. Standard & Poors explained why it downgraded the US rating. It blamed the political uncertainty caused by elements in Congress -- i.e., the tea party.

http://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245316529563

But that won't stop you from repeating this lie, hoping nobody will notice.

 

[cpwill]

Look I am as unhappy as everyone else by the embarrassment that is our current government. That being said, the EU is not in great shape, Japan is an economic mess, China does not have an open currency, Russian economy is mostly based on commodities. So let's be real about what can take the place of the dollar as a reserve currency, or what our rating should be based on where the rest of the developed world is.

The Renmimbi is actually looking to make itself a "regional" reserve currency, methinks. China pushes it's trade partners to divest from the dollar for that reason, and when you look at what they intend to do with their new free trade zone idea in Shanghai, it makes sense. Interesting times, to be sure.

There doesn't have to be "a" global reserve currency. We in the post-Bretton-Woods era just have happened to have had one.

 

[VanceMack]

Why bother with a debt ceiling when they are going to break it every 6 months. Why not just do what many folks want to do and just say **** it...print money, spend like crack addicts, and drive the country over a cliff. So what if it will take 10 years or so...thats 10 years. Who cares?

 

[Paschendale]

There is definitely a subsection of this country that is so simplistic in their thinking and so paranoid and fearful that their whole political ideology is just "guberment bad!" That's the people who forced this shutdown, and who think that it's a good thing. They are also the "keep your government hands off my medicare" types.

 

[jonny5]

Putting aside the noise from both sides, it would seem that we should put aside the risk of not raising the debt ceiling. Everyone understands not raising the debt ceiling for more than a couple of days would lead to a huge economic mess. There has been no budget proposal I have seen that would balance the budget for the next year.

We can talk about the fact that the then senator Obama voted against raising the budget in 2007, but so what. He was irresponsible then, that does not mean others should take that stance now. People can look back and say there have been other times when there were strings attached to raising the debt ceiling, but again who cares, we are in the mess we are now based on who we put in office now.

I would not couple the government "shutdown" with the debt ceiling. The debt ceiling is like dropping a nuclear bomb on ourselves, the shutdown is a skirmish.

Keep the government shutdown until a real budget is agreed upon rather than these inane CRs. Lift the uncertainty over the debt limit which is an option that can not be used effectively.

Thoughts?

I disagree. We need debt ceiling, and it needs to be far lower than it currently is. So we sure as heck dont want to RAISE it. The time has just maybe finally come to bring the issue of deficits to a head. By not raising the ceiling it forces the country to balance the budget.

 

[jonny5]

i think you might not be fully taking into consideration how the rest of the world looks at us. people vote with their money, as does the globe. if the banker is routinely drunk in the streets exposing himself, the town begins to look at other banks. also, much of the rest of the world (including our largest foreign creditor) has a cultural value of saving face and keeping up appearances. we aren't doing that. we've chosen instead to air our grievances on the Maury Povitch show. we look ridiculous, and that might matter.

And coming out of it stronger matters more. The recession was caused by excessive borrowing. I fail to see how borrowing more is going to improve things.

 

[Helix]

And coming out of it stronger matters more. The recession was caused by excessive borrowing. I fail to see how borrowing more is going to improve things.

honestly, neither do i, but it's infinitely better than default. i would vastly prefer that we re-prioritize programs and our national mission, and then set tax policy to make sure that we at least break even.

 

[iguanaman]

I know of no budget proposal, including the Ryan budget that gets to balance this fiscal year. So we can debate what a new limit should be, but we need an increase. If either side wants no increase they should show us their path to balance this fiscal year. Otherwise we are wasting a bunch of time and credibility on something that can't happen.

Funny you should mention the Ryan budget because those numbers are the spending levels that are contained in the CR that Boner won't put to a vote. This has nothing to do with money, everything the T's are threatening will COST us billions more. This is about bringing down the President and the nation I'm afraid.

 

[washunut]

I disagree. We need debt ceiling, and it needs to be far lower than it currently is. So we sure as heck dont want to RAISE it. The time has just maybe finally come to bring the issue of deficits to a head. By not raising the ceiling it forces the country to balance the budget.

While I would also like a lower debt level we need a bridge to get from here to there. There is no budget proposal that I know of that gets us to balance next year. So unless someone wants to propose huge tax increases to pay for what is already law I see no realistic way to NOT raise the debt limit.

 

[washunut]

Funny you should mention the Ryan budget because those numbers are the spending levels that are contained in the CR that Boner won't put to a vote. This has nothing to do with money, everything the T's are threatening will COST us billions more. This is about bringing down the President and the nation I'm afraid.

I am concentrating on raising the debt limit. We have not yet reached the date when the politicians have to vote on this.

Seems to me like the partial shutdown is a sideshow. The workers will probably be paid, so unless you have a vacation scheduled next week to visit a national park, not many are effected.

 

[Fletch]

There is definitely a subsection of this country that is so simplistic in their thinking and so paranoid and fearful that their whole political ideology is just "guberment bad!" That's the people who forced this shutdown, and who think that it's a good thing. They are also the "keep your government hands off my medicare" types.

I have an idea. Since you are posting here, why don't you actually address what people here are saying rather than make some lame attempt to slime them through insults directed at others. If anyone is 'simplistic in their thinking' it is those who believe government can continue to expand and roll up debt and there be no consequence to that behavior.

 

[jonny5]

honestly, neither do i, but it's infinitely better than default. i would vastly prefer that we re-prioritize programs and our national mission, and then set tax policy to make sure that we at least break even.

Those arent the only two options, borrow more or default. Which is the whole problem with this debate.

 

[jonny5]

Funny you should mention the Ryan budget because those numbers are the spending levels that are contained in the CR that Boner won't put to a vote. This has nothing to do with money, everything the T's are threatening will COST us billions more. This is about bringing down the President and the nation I'm afraid.

Irrelevant. Ryans budget was a BUDGET, setting spending levels for the next decade, and many different policies. This CR would only authorize spending for 3 months, at blanket levels with no priorities. Apples and oranges.

 

[jonny5]

While I would also like a lower debt level we need a bridge to get from here to there. There is no budget proposal that I know of that gets us to balance next year. So unless someone wants to propose huge tax increases to pay for what is already law I see no realistic way to NOT raise the debt limit.

Huge spending cuts.

 

[washunut]

Huge spending cuts.

Again, while I would like the spending level to come down as you suggest my sense is that it should ramp down, lest the economy not be able to absorb the reduction in spending.