Systemic Racism does NOT exist.

[bubbabgone]

Let me bring you up to speed. This is what aociswundumho said:


I addressed this faulty reasoning with an example of how systemic disadvantages can persist without coming from 'white racists living today.' Are you taking up the argument that they cannot? Or are we going to agree that systemic disadvantages can persist independent of racist individuals and move on to other points?

Thanks.
I believe aoc was essentially suggesting that your perception that a particular system is racist was really the result of your confusion that the person(s) running it was the system.
The system itself isn't racist.

A good way to examine this is if you provide an example of a system that is inherently racist.
That was, after all, the definition that you provided.

 

[justabubba]

Tell us. What conclusion do YOU come to when you use Occams razor?

It appears the OP used occam’s razor to commit virtual Hara Kiri to depart this this forum

 

[Threegoofs]

It appears the OP used occam’s razor to commit virtual Hara Kiri to depart this this forum

True, but he’s not the one who brought up Occam’s razor. The ones who did wont respond to my simple question, although one of them has probably been slapped around too much by me and has me on ignore.

 

[diz]

Didn't read the whole thread so apologize if this has already been linked:

CAN WE PLEASE DITCH THE TERM "SYSTEMIC RACISM"?

I know we can't, but systemic racial inequities can almost never be undone by "getting rid of the racism."

johnmcwhorter.substack.com

 

[RaleBulgarian]

And what was my tone like that necessitated And funny you should mention "content" (of my posts). Are you implying that if you disagree with what I say, that means you get to respond in a very nasty manner?

Your post was willfully ignorant and negatively biased garbage.

Your sensitivity to direct criticism is your problem, not mine.

When you post willfully ignorant and negatively biased fiction, you should expect to be called on it.

Not sure what you are trying to say, but, I am not white.

Your color has no bearing on my comment.

Either way, quote me.

I did. Pay better attention.

And so what that my posts are partisan? Does that justify you being rude to me?

partisan is fine. You’re entitled to your wrong opinions. Partisan fiction isn’t acceptable.

... you should still keep a civil tongue in your head.

Tell ya what, you stop posting willfully ignorant and biased garbage, and I’ll respond more civilly.

Not saying that I am spastic, but when you see a true, literal spastic person in real life, do you laugh at them or call them stupid? I am sure you would not. So why would you do it to me?

If you have a social impediment, it is your responsibility to let others know so that we can give proper consideration to your posts.

I’m the same in “real life” as I am here. I am courteous until/unless someone gives me reason to respond otherwise.

And funny you should say, "you have no business ____". Are you saying that you are the arbiter who gets to decide whether other people "have any business" saying certain things?

You are misquoting me.

You could have asked me to clarify my position. ... other responses that did not involve insulting me.

Your comments were clear enough that there was no reason to ask you to elaborate.

I didn’t insult you. I made a factual statement. Your tender feelings aren’t my concern.

Do you feel that if someone is being supposedly ignorant, that means you get to be as rude as possible to them?

Your willfully ignorant and biased trash talk was rude and intellectually insulting and dishonest.

Asserting that all African Americans are descendants of slaves and are fortunate, regardless of how their ancestors were brought to the United States, to be here is unacceptably ignorant. Is that what you were taught in school?

Do I need to remind you of your defensive behavior in that thread in the gun forum, where Glitch schooled your Bulgarian ass? You literally said, "why are you compelled to publicize your ignorance?" Yeah, you were totally not lashing out like a child. And no, you never say anything antagonistic, either.

Please, feel free to cite any thread wherein you think my “Bulgarian ass” was “schooled”. I always enjoy a good laugh!

FYI, I’m not Bulgarian.

 

[Tiny]

Your post was willfully ignorant and negatively biased garbage.

Prove that my post was 1. ignorant; 2. willfully so, 3. biased; and 4. garbage.

If you can't, then maybe you should just admit it's all your opinion.

By the way, assuming that you can prove that my post is all of those things, (which you can't), do you mean that you can react to me in a nasty manner?

Your sensitivity to direct criticism is your problem, not mine.

How is it "sensitivity" though? Prove that I am being sensitive or that my post is fueled by sensitivity.

Btw, I'd argue that what you did was more than criticism. I'd say it constitutes some type of attack on a personal level. If not that, then at least a display of impolite behavior.

When you post willfully ignorant and negatively biased fiction, you should expect to be called on it.

Again, prove that my post was 1. ignorant, 2. willfully so, 3. biased, and 4. fiction.

And no, just because I said something that offended your fragile little mind, it does not mean I am writing "fiction".

By the way, you are doing more than just "calling me out on it". You are pretty much attacking me. You just don't realize it because you are so used to being rude to people.

Your color has no bearing on my comment.

I did. Pay better attention.

You only provided one quote. I need to see more to be satisfied that I have been doing that habitually, which is what you are suggesting.

Again, I maintain that I am usually very polite. If you really believe I am habitually antagonistic to other posters, quote me.

partisan is fine. You’re entitled to your wrong opinions. Partisan fiction isn’t acceptable.

Prove that my posts are "partisan fiction".

By the way, are you telling me that if you think someone's posts are "partisan fiction", it justifies you saying nasty things to them? Is this what you are telling me?

 

[Tiny]

Tell ya what, you stop posting willfully ignorant and biased garbage, and I’ll respond more civilly.

So what you are essentially saying is that, if you think people are posting willfully ignorant and biased garbage, you get to act in an uncivil manner to them?

By the way, are you implying that you are the sole arbiter of what passes as "willfully ignorant and biased garbage"? What if I disagree with your assessment that I am posting "willfully ignorant and biased garbage"?

If you have a social impediment, it is your responsibility to let others know so that we can give proper consideration to your posts.

I don't have a social impediment, but thanks for your concern. I know that you care about me deeply. I mean you would not want me to make a complete ass of myself. That's love.

I’m the same in “real life” as I am here. I am courteous until/unless someone gives me reason to respond otherwise.

And what is this reason that I have given you? That I am posting what you think is willfully ignorant and biased garbage?

You are misquoting me.

How so?

Your comments were clear enough that there was no reason to ask you to elaborate.

Then maybe you thought wrong. Apparently my comments were not meant that way. You really could have asked. If fact, you should have. But you chose to not ask me to clarify and you just jumped on me with your fangs on my jugular vein.

I didn’t insult you. I made a factual statement.

Lol. I don't think you know the difference between fact and opinion.

Your tender feelings aren’t my concern.

But I thought you cared about me! I mean you wouldn't want me to make a complete ass of myself. That's love, man.

Your willfully ignorant and biased trash talk was rude and intellectually insulting and dishonest.

More opinions from you, which you mistake to be facts. Lol.

Asserting that all African Americans are descendants of slaves and are fortunate, regardless of how their ancestors were brought to the United States, to be here is unacceptably ignorant.

So now we get to the crux of the matter. You were just incredibly offended by what I said about the African Americans. Dude, relax. I am entitled to my own opinion. Doesn't matter how racist you think it is. And by the way, my comment was not meant to be racist. I was just pointing out that being able to live in America is a fortunate thing, regardless of how this came about.

I will give you an example to show you what I mean. Imagine that we take out life insurance on my mother. She dies, and insurance company pays us big. We use the money to buy a big fancy house. Are we fortunate to be living in a big fancy house, even though the money was obtained in a tragic/bad way? Yes, we are. Regardless of how we got money that paid for the house, the fact that living in a big fancy house is fortunate stays true.

Is that what you were taught in school?

No. It's what I came up with myself. Pretty ingenious, isn't it?

Please, feel free to cite any thread wherein you think my “Bulgarian ass” was “schooled”. I always enjoy a good laugh!

I dont need to do that. I have already quoted you lashing out at him: "why are you compelled to publicize your ignorance"? I think this is, or should be, humiliating enough for you.

FYI, I’m not Bulgarian.

Interesting. So what are you? Some kind of minority, I bet. That's why you got your panties in a wad over that statement I made. I guess it must have touched a nerve.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

No and I wasn't accusing you in particular of ad hominems. It's a general tendency that is observed and perceived. What tends to happen when this worldview is disputed/argued against/challenged?

My fellow white people: if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem | Katherine Craig

Munroe Bergdorf’s assertion that all white people are racist has upset many, but society is skewed in our favour and it is right to acknowledge that, writes lawyer and social change consultant Katherine Craig

www.theguardian.com

I don't think personal attacks or accusations that someone is trying to protect their privilege are worthwhile arguments.

Ad hominems are hardly unique to the subject of race though. You will unfortunately find them on every side of every debate on every topic.

 

[code1211]

A wholly insignificant category of employment with next to zero impact on the economic well being of people of color. Those benefiting the most are the white owners.

In sports, it is clear who the best performers are and whom thereby should be best compensated. In the vast majority of employment categories, black employees who perform as well and have the same qualifications as white employees are not advanced as often or paid as much. Those are well established, historical facts that have been often publicized.

What you say is irrelevant and not of any significance.

What this shows is the best rise to the top.

It happens everywhere in everything.

NBA Owners are not the only business owners that want to be successful.

The first "Black Player" in the NBA was there before I was born and was playing in 1950. There actually was discrimination and a color barrier to deconstruct at that point. It is no longer there.

The same is true of most areas of our national culture. The fight you are taking up is a noble one and was fought and won decades ago.

The folks that want to have the best teams as they try to find success in any pursuit also try to gather the best team MEMBERS to help find that success.

As the NBA demonstrates so completely, IF the owners want to win, THEN they will gather the best team members.

Obviously, if the best were not "Black", the rosters would reflect that.

Tracking percentages to show how aggrieved the "Black" Population might be is really getting to be a tiresome exercise. The stupidities regarding our prison populations is one such tracking exercise.

"Blacks" are said to comprise 40% of the prison population and this is said to show how aggrieved they are.

Also, though, is this little nugget: 93% of our prison population is Male. Are men, then, also considered to be aggrieved as a group and oppressed by those who are NOT men?

58.7% of the US Prison population is is white. This extends out to about 54% of the prison population being "White" Males. "White" Males comprise about 35% of the US population.

This is a wildly overweighted share of the population represented in our prisons.

We may assume that there is some sort of preference demonstrated by these numbers or a simple SELF-SELECTION based in INDIVIDUAL behaviors.

The conclusion I prefer is that individual behaviors are what is demonstrated by individual behaviors.

 

[bluesmoke]

The problem is the outcome isn't consistent among blacks in the US:

View attachment 67332449

List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nigerians, Ghanaian, Guyanese, and West Indian blacks all typically have very dark skin. Why isn't racism in the US holding them back?

As I've pointed out with such as attempting to point out that most NBA players are black and they make way more than the white players, their numbers are insignificant. Ghana and Nigeria are African, but what % of African-American claim such ancestry? You can't show evidence of any significant number. If you could, then the mean hshld income of African-Americans would be much higher than it is now.

 

[Neomalthusian]

I don't think personal attacks or accusations that someone is trying to protect their privilege are worthwhile arguments.

Ad hominems are hardly unique to the subject of race though. You will unfortunately find them on every side of every debate on every topic.

Of course, but the nature of this particular issue is such that a sort of ad hominem is practically woven into the fabric of the debate itself.

 

[cpwill]

What assumption can you posit with more significant evidence of support?

I would argue there is no "The" thing, but, if you had to point to the largest, "culture" would cover most of the major drivers.

 

[cpwill]

Culture comes to mind as a much more powerful factor. African immigrants who come here tend to do pretty well, as do non-white immigrants from south Asia, east Asia, etc. If racial animus was the leading cause of disparity in results, we would have a hard time explaining how out culture learned to discriminate against whites in favor of Koreans and Nigerians.

And what, as I asked, is your significant evidence of support for the claim you now make? Maybe a link to some citation. A study of some kind. Data/stats.

A fair question

Nigerian-Americans have more post-graduate degrees than any other racial or ethnic group

By many measures, African immigrants are as far ahead of American whites in the educational achievement as whites are ahead of African-Americans. That education translates into higher household income.

 

[aociswundumho]

Ghana and Nigeria are African, but what % of African-American claim such ancestry? You can't show evidence of any significant number. If you could, then the mean hshld income of African-Americans would be much higher than it is now.

Wait, are you saying there's a genetic component? It seems to me you're implying that certain blacks are genetically superior to others.

The central claim is that racism is holding blacks back. That simply isn't true, because if it were, then it would hold all blacks back.

 

[bluesmoke]

"Disinegenuously".

Sigh. Can people on the site even handle it when others disagree with them? What is wrong with just saying, "as you so imply"? And you aren't the only one. Seems like a lot of people think they have been attacked on a personal level and they must "fight back", anytime someone so much as to quote them.

A bit thin-skinned of you inferring something is meant only personal when you're not the one implicated as the example in your own critique. Listen to your sidekick Sancho and not tilt at the next windmill.

 

[bluesmoke]

I'm certainly willing to look it up and bring it in here, but first: if it turns out to be true that people from the same ethnic (or equally non-white), but different cultural, backgrounds have sharply divergent results, what would that mean in terms of which factor was more dominant in shaping results?

In statistics, numbers over time are indicative of significance. That black basketball players make so much more money than white players is not significant in comparison to the whole of the experience of black employment, etc, as is indicated by the stats of disparate impact of considerable significance. Eventually, the Korean will experience such as "China virus" discrimination and the Nigerian will get stopped because he's black, no matter how much money they make. Same with the round-ball player.

 

[bluesmoke]

Unreasonable request.
You've identified, via citation, summary statistics which indicate there's a disparity of outcomes. Fine. Fair enough. Worthy of further investigation to determine why those disparity of outcomes exist.

Calling out those summary statistics doesn't prove or disprove the proposed hypothesis that those disparity of outcomes have a racial root cause.

You first made assertion that these disparity of outcomes are caused by 'systemic racism'. Please show your homework that proves your case that they are caused by racism.
This being just as unreasonable request as the one you posed in your post.

You're getting circular. I gave you the facts that support what I say in post #4. All I'm asking is for you to either provide countervailing statistics to refute what I say, or what else you think is the more likely reason for those outcomes and what evidence you have to support such. To say "Correlation does not equal causation" is an inane statement. Extremely few decisions of any significance are made and acted upon that are based on scientific proof of causation. Nor are people's beliefs. You can't show anything near the equivalency of significant fact as have I to refute my claim. In debate, it's the significance of support for a claim that makes the point. You can't come up with any of that. Not even a posit, let alone evidence. See you on another thread.

 

[calamity]

So what is the horrible impact of this so called racism? I don't see Black people leaving the country, or preventing millions of foreign Blacks from wanting to move here.

This gets old. Blacks treat other Blacks far worse. You should be talking about all the Black on Black crime and murders, high number of abortions, and absent fathers. That is where the real problems lie.

lol...i guess there will be no more debating you, "Bro."

 

[eohrnberger]

You're getting circular. I gave you the facts that support what I say in post #4.

Not at all. The 'facts' you provided are only statistics. Your assertion is that since there is a disparity of outcomes systemic racism is present.
Correlation does not equal causation.
There may be other facts at play which contribute to the disparity of outcomes. Make your case that it is 'systemic racism', if you can.

All I'm asking is for you to either provide countervailing statistics to refute what I say, or what else you think is the more likely reason for those outcomes and what evidence you have to support such. To say "Correlation does not equal causation" is an inane statement. Extremely few decisions of any significance are made and acted upon that are based on scientific proof of causation. Nor are people's beliefs. You can't show anything near the equivalency of significant fact as have I to refute my claim. In debate, it's the significance of support for a claim that makes the point. You can't come up with any of that. Not even a posit, let alone evidence. See you on another thread.

So it is only a 'belief' of yours (and others) that 'Systemic Racism' is the only possible cause? A near religious ideological driven belief in my view.

 

[bluesmoke]

lol...i guess there will be no more debating you, "Bro."

Fun to have had around. If you like to pull one wing off a fly and watch.

 

[bluesmoke]

What this shows is the best rise to the top.

It happens everywhere in everything.

NBA Owners are not the only business owners that want to be successful.

The first "Black Player" in the NBA was there before I was born and was playing in 1950. There actually was discrimination and a color barrier to deconstruct at that point. It is no longer there.

The same is true of most areas of our national culture. The fight you are taking up is a noble one and was fought and won decades ago.

The folks that want to have the best teams as they try to find success in any pursuit also try to gather the best team MEMBERS to help find that success.

As the NBA demonstrates so completely, IF the owners want to win, THEN they will gather the best team members.

Obviously, if the best were not "Black", the rosters would reflect that.

Tracking percentages to show how aggrieved the "Black" Population might be is really getting to be a tiresome exercise. The stupidities regarding our prison populations is one such tracking exercise.

"Blacks" are said to comprise 40% of the prison population and this is said to show how aggrieved they are.

Also, though, is this little nugget: 93% of our prison population is Male. Are men, then, also considered to be aggrieved as a group and oppressed by those who are NOT men?

58.7% of the US Prison population is is white. This extends out to about 54% of the prison population being "White" Males. "White" Males comprise about 35% of the US population.

This is a wildly overweighted share of the population represented in our prisons.

We may assume that there is some sort of preference demonstrated by these numbers or a simple SELF-SELECTION based in INDIVIDUAL behaviors.

The conclusion I prefer is that individual behaviors are what is demonstrated by individual behaviors.

Your deflection and misdirection, not refuting anything I claimed nor countered of your prior post, is duly noted.

 

[bluesmoke]

I would argue there is no "The" thing, but, if you had to point to the largest, "culture" would cover most of the major drivers.

Whose culture and what about it?

 

[bluesmoke]

A fair question

Nigerian-Americans have more post-graduate degrees than any other racial or ethnic group

By many measures, African immigrants are as far ahead of American whites in the educational achievement as whites are ahead of African-Americans. That education translates into higher household income.

Anecdotal does not constitute "significant" nor, as I asked, a link to data/stats/study, again of some significance. You didn't respond to the request of "significance" before, and now you don't respond to my specificity of "significance" explained in my last post. You can't show numbers of any significance. At best, you can only show a handful of people. See you on another thread.

 

[bluesmoke]

Wait, are you saying there's a genetic component? It seems to me you're implying that certain blacks are genetically superior to others.

The central claim is that racism is holding blacks back. That simply isn't true, because if it were, then it would hold all blacks back.

No, I’m not implying what you falsely infer from what I say. You are the one introducing that implication out of thin air, with which I disagree.

Eventually, racism against people with black skin will affect them in one way or another. Black people who do well in business or whatever, and as with those successful in basketball, experience racism via such as traffic/pedestrian stops and many other situation. Just because there is an exception in a given category for a moment in time that applies to a tiny percentage of a population does not negate the whole of the fact of systemic racism. You, like so many conservatives, don’t understand/grasp/accept equivalency.

 

[cpwill]

Anecdotal does not constitute "significant" nor, as I asked, a link to data/stats/study, again of some significance. You didn't respond to the request of "significance" before, and now you don't respond to my specificity of "significance" explained in my last post. You can't show numbers of any significance. At best, you can only show a handful of people. See you on another thread.

Those were literally the stats. I'm guessing you didn't fully read the sources? Happens to the best of us, sometimes .