Swimming-FINA votes to restrict transgender participation in elite women's competition

PoS · Jun 19, 2022

Swimming-FINA votes to restrict transgender participation in elite women's competition

Swimming's world governing body FINA on Sunday voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's competitions and create a working group to establish an "open" category for them in some events as part of its new policy. The debate intensified after University of...

www.yahoo.com

Ive said this before and I'll say it again: trans should have their own sports categories. Its the only way to ensure fairness.

Lycanthrope · Jun 19, 2022

From the article:

The new eligibility policy for FINA competitions states that male-to-female transgender athletes are eligible to compete only if "they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 (of puberty) or before age 12, whichever is later".

I had to look up the Tanner stages - stage 2 is when physical development begins. This is clearly an ongoing process in terms of how best to navigate the situation.

Mr Person · Jun 19, 2022

PoS said:
Swimming-FINA votes to restrict transgender participation in elite women's competition

Swimming's world governing body FINA on Sunday voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's competitions and create a working group to establish an "open" category for them in some events as part of its new policy. The debate intensified after University of...

www.yahoo.com

Ive said this before and I'll say it again: trans should have their own sports categories. Its the only way to ensure fairness.

It's also a way to ensure that they don't have any sport categories given the massive stigma some persons aim at them and the tiny percentage of the population they occupy. Nevermind that at best the anti-trans people have at best a few cases where trans folk did better. Meanwhile in plenty of other cases, say the Olympic Heavy Weightlifter righties raged about here did things like...... bombing out of the Olympics.

That's what makes the resolution of the problem so hard. Which is why you went with the "I don't give a shit, but not what they want" answer.

It's not an easy yes/no situation, at least not for those who don't find it eminently convenient to shitcan a minority.

Lycanthrope said:
From the article:

The new eligibility policy for FINA competitions states that male-to-female transgender athletes are eligible to compete only if "they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 (of puberty) or before age 12, whichever is later".

I had to look up the Tanner stages - stage 2 is when physical development begins. This is clearly an ongoing process in terms of how best to navigate the situation.

I don't think we can expect him to read past the headline.

I see another viewing the thread who will do the same in 3....2.....1...

Lovebug · Jun 19, 2022

The policy was passed with a roughly 71% majority after it was put to the members of 152 national federations with voting rights who had gathered for the congress at the Puskas Arena.

That is a substantial number.

Roadvirus · Jun 19, 2022

PoS said:
Swimming-FINA votes to restrict transgender participation in elite women's competition

Swimming's world governing body FINA on Sunday voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's competitions and create a working group to establish an "open" category for them in some events as part of its new policy. The debate intensified after University of...

www.yahoo.com

Ive said this before and I'll say it again: trans should have their own sports categories. Its the only way to ensure fairness.

A step in the right direction.

JMB802 · Jun 19, 2022

PoS said:
Swimming-FINA votes to restrict transgender participation in elite women's competition

Swimming's world governing body FINA on Sunday voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's competitions and create a working group to establish an "open" category for them in some events as part of its new policy. The debate intensified after University of...

www.yahoo.com

Ive said this before and I'll say it again: trans should have their own sports categories. Its the only way to ensure fairness.

Would you think it fair that instead of concentrating on defining sex, we determine biological parameters for participants in men's and women's sports and eliminate all the outliers?

Lycanthrope · Jun 19, 2022

JMB802 said:
Would you think it fair that instead of concentrating on defining sex, we determine biological parameters for participants in men's and women's sports and eliminate all the outliers?

Seems like that's what FINA is trying to work with, e.g. going by whether an M to F athlete had reached a certain stage in puberty before beginning the transition process.

JMB802 · Jun 19, 2022

Lycanthrope said:
Seems like that's what FINA is trying to work with, e.g. going by whether an M to F athlete had reached a certain stage in puberty before beginning the transition process.

IMO, I think FINA is still getting bogged down by defining sex. What I am saying is that if women participants can't exceed certain biological parameters because it theoretically gives them an unfair advantage then the same should apply to participants in men's sports. That way trans people aren't being singled out and the purpose would be to weed out all athletes with distinct biological/hormonal advantages.

Lycanthrope · Jun 19, 2022

JMB802 said:
IMO, I think FINA is still getting bogged down by defining sex. What I am saying is that if women participants can't exceed certain biological parameters because it theoretically gives them an unfair advantage then the same should apply to participants in men's sports. That way trans people aren't being singled out and the purpose would be to weed out all athletes with distinct biological/hormonal advantages.

My intention is not to nitpick with you, but in my estimation that is what FINA is attempting to do; largely avoiding the minefield of defining sex, and going by biological parameters (puberty).

Rexedgar · Jun 19, 2022

Has there ever been a female to male transgender that excelled in a male sport?

Mr Person · Jun 19, 2022

Rexedgar said:
Has there ever been a female to male transgender that excelled in a male sport?

I would imagine that's one of the comparisons ongoing research looks at. There really isn't much of a data set, so it's down to a cost/benefit: tell them they're just locked out, or make allowances. Thus far, some succeed (those are trumpeted in media), while many others fail.

And we don't - this isn't as facetious as it might sound - we don't tell someone they can't play basketball because their genes made them 7"2. Why not facetious? It all comes down to the basics of the argument; namely, that people born males who feel (and convert to) female have built-in advantages through puberty that do not disappear with the testosterone. You postulate the other direction.

I think this situation and its resolution is as far from clear and rational as one could get. Either way, you are arguably screwing some people. Who, how much, and why?

Aristaeus · Jun 19, 2022

Mr Person said:
It's also a way to ensure that they don't have any sport categories given the massive stigma some persons aim at them and the tiny percentage of the population they occupy. Nevermind that at best the anti-trans people have at best a few cases where trans folk did better. Meanwhile in plenty of other cases, say the Olympic Heavy Weightlifter righties raged about here did things like...... bombing out of the Olympics.

That's what makes the resolution of the problem so hard. Which is why you went with the "I don't give a shit, but not what they want" answer.

It's not an easy yes/no situation, at least not for those who don't find it eminently convenient to shitcan a minority.

I don't think we can expect him to read past the headline.

I see another viewing the thread who will do the same in 3....2.....1...

The decision was based on scientific research on the advantages transwomen who went through male puberty have over women.

Rexedgar · Jun 19, 2022

Mr Person said:
I would imagine that's one of the comparisons ongoing research looks at. There really isn't much of a data set, so it's down to a cost/benefit: tell them they're just locked out, or make allowances that allow mixed success on their part.

The point that I am trying to make is that it seems to be only male to female where there is controversy. Runners, swimmers and weigh-lifters are the ones that I have heard about. The latest flap was the UVA swimmer, Thomas, IIRC. What I found interesting was that her time in the collegiate 500m was more than 8sec off of Katie Ledecky’s record time.

In the Thomas case, the photo of the award podium ceremony did nothing to soothe the emotions.

Mr Person · Jun 19, 2022

Mr Person said:
I would imagine that's one of the comparisons ongoing research looks at. There really isn't much of a data set, so it's down to a cost/benefit: tell them they're just locked out, or make allowances. Thus far, some succeed (those are trumpeted in media), while many others fail.

And we don't - this isn't as facetious as it might sound - we don't tell someone they can't play basketball because their genes made them 7"2. Why not facetious? It all comes down to the basics of the argument; namely, that people born males who feel (and convert to) female have built-in advantages through puberty that do not disappear with the testosterone. You postulate the other direction.

I think this situation and its resolution is as far from clear and rational as one could get. Either way, you are arguably screwing some people. Who, how much, and why?

Rexedgar said:
The point that I am trying to make is that it seems to be only male to female where there is controversy. Runners, swimmers and weigh-lifters are the ones that I have heard about. The latest flap was the UVA swimmer, Thomas, IIRC. What I found interesting was that her time in the collegiate 500m was more than 8sec off of Katie Ledecky’s record time.

In the Thomas case, the photo of the award podium ceremony did nothing to soothe the emotions.

I don't think we're in much if any disagreement. I was mostly bouncing off your post. There is little controversy about F-->M, despite having to take some mixture test and est agonists (or whatever the mix is). That's true.

I mentioned M-->F, then noted you were talking about the other thing.

noonereal · Jun 19, 2022

PoS said:
Swimming-FINA votes to restrict transgender participation in elite women's competition

Swimming's world governing body FINA on Sunday voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's competitions and create a working group to establish an "open" category for them in some events as part of its new policy. The debate intensified after University of...

www.yahoo.com

Ive said this before and I'll say it again: trans should have their own sports categories. Its the only way to ensure fairness.

I can live with this decision.

noonereal · Jun 19, 2022

Mr Person said:
It's also a way to ensure that they don't have any sport categories given the massive stigma some persons aim at them and the tiny percentage of the population they occupy. Nevermind that at best the anti-trans people have at best a few cases where trans folk did better. Meanwhile in plenty of other cases, say the Olympic Heavy Weightlifter righties raged about here did things like...... bombing out of the Olympics.

That's what makes the resolution of the problem so hard. Which is why you went with the "I don't give a shit, but not what they want" answer.

It's not an easy yes/no situation, at least not for those who don't find it eminently convenient to shitcan a minority.

This post is bullshit.

Mr Person · Jun 19, 2022

noonereal said:
This post is bullshit.

Announced by someone with a rather trans-phobic posting history, no less. K.

Captain Adverse · Jun 19, 2022

PoS said:
Swimming-FINA votes to restrict transgender participation in elite women's competition

Swimming's world governing body FINA on Sunday voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's competitions and create a working group to establish an "open" category for them in some events as part of its new policy. The debate intensified after University of...

www.yahoo.com

Ive said this before and I'll say it again: trans should have their own sports categories. Its the only way to ensure fairness.

This ruling does prevent people like Lia Thompson from competing.

However, I have a concern about this portion of the rules:

"The new eligibility policy for FINA competitions states that male-to-female transgender athletes are eligible to compete only if "they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 (of puberty) or before age 12, whichever is later"...

Swimmers who have had "male puberty suppressed beginning at Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later, and they have since continuously maintained their testosterone levels in serum (or plasma) below 2.5 nmol/L." are also allowed to compete in women's races." https://www.yahoo.com/news/swimming-fina-votes-restrict-transgender-151028626.html

This suggests that the organization accepts pre-pubescent transition "therapies" qualifying a youth as "female." This also gives parents, and those in the transition "business model" of therapists, counselors, endocrinologists, and surgeons, not to mention pharmaceutical companies a profit motive to encourage this "transitioning.

The problem I have always had with this viewpoint is that we don't trust children under 16 to make any "life-changing decisions" because we consider them too immature and thus incapable of such choices. Hell, we even have many who would argue for this also arguing that 18 year old's are not mature enough to own a gun, suggesting a delay until at least 21, and for some preferably later. Yet they argue a child "knows" if he/she was not born the "right sex?"

So who is really protecting the children?

The delusional parents who seek social praise in what I consider another "Munchausen's by proxy" harming of children? Therapists who argue this nonsense? The Endocrinologists and Surgeons opening up a new source of practice profits? The Pharmaceutical industry?

Those of us who oppose this crap at least until the person is a legal adult?

CLAX1911 · Jun 19, 2022

Roadvirus said:
A step in the right direction.

I wonder how many people will go with the old adage that the organization gets to set its own rules.

noonereal · Jun 19, 2022

Mr Person said:
Announced by someone with a rather trans-phobic posting history, no less. K.

As a matter of fact, I do not have a transphobic posting history.
I support the trans community.

I am simply against overreach in all communities. Black groups, women groups, trans etc.

noonereal · Jun 19, 2022

Captain Adverse said:
This ruling does prevent people like Lia Thompson from competing.

However, I have a concern about this portion of the rules:

"The new eligibility policy for FINA competitions states that male-to-female transgender athletes are eligible to compete only if "they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 (of puberty) or before age 12, whichever is later"...

Swimmers who have had "male puberty suppressed beginning at Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later, and they have since continuously maintained their testosterone levels in serum (or plasma) below 2.5 nmol/L." are also allowed to compete in women's races." https://www.yahoo.com/news/swimming-fina-votes-restrict-transgender-151028626.html

This suggests that the organization accepts pre-pubescent transition "therapies" qualifying a youth as "female." This also gives parents, and those in the transition "business model" of therapists, counselors, endocrinologists, and surgeons, not to mention pharmaceutical companies a profit motive to encourage this "transitioning.

The problem I have always had with this viewpoint is that we don't trust children under 16 to make any "life-changing decisions" because we consider them too immature and thus incapable of such choices. Hell, we even have many who would argue for this also arguing that 18 year old's are not mature enough to own a gun, suggesting a delay until at least 21, and for some preferably later. Yet they argue a child "knows" if he/she was not born the "right sex?"

So who is really protecting the children?

The delusional parents who seek social praise in what I consider another "Munchausen's by proxy" harming of children? Therapists who argue this nonsense? The Endocrinologists and Surgeons opening up a new source of practice profits? The Pharmaceutical industry?

Those of us who oppose this crap at least until the person is a legal adult?

This post is as ignorant as those who want the trans allowed in women sport.

Why can't anyone be reasoned and rational about this? (Or any subject)

Gaius46 · Jun 19, 2022

Mr Person said:
I would imagine that's one of the comparisons ongoing research looks at. There really isn't much of a data set, so it's down to a cost/benefit: tell them they're just locked out, or make allowances. Thus far, some succeed (those are trumpeted in media), while many others fail.

And we don't - this isn't as facetious as it might sound - we don't tell someone they can't play basketball because their genes made them 7"2. Why not facetious? It all comes down to the basics of the argument; namely, that people born males who feel (and convert to) female have built-in advantages through puberty that do not disappear with the testosterone. You postulate the other direction.

I think this situation and its resolution is as far from clear and rational as one could get. Either way, you are arguably screwing some people. Who, how much, and why?

Some people will get screwed. It’s just a matter of who.

And yes many male to female trans athletes fail but that doesn’t necessarily argue against barring trans females from competing because success is more than just biology. However assuming equal training, desire, mental preparedness the person with with better genetics will win.

And the basketball player analogy really doesn’t work. 7’2” is a rare height for men but it isn’t unheard of. Women with testosterone levels and fast/slow twitch muscle fiber ratios of even average men are exceedingly rare.

Captain Adverse · Jun 19, 2022

noonereal said:
This post is as ignorant as those who want the trans allowed in women sport.

Why can't anyone be reasoned and rational about this? (Or any subject)

Did you just respond too soon, or did you intentionally omit everything after that part of my post?

To be fair, I will presume your responding too soon and repeat in this reply all after the part you cited.

"...This suggests that the organization accepts pre-pubescent transition "therapies" qualifying a youth as "female." This also gives parents, and those in the transition "business model" of therapists, counselors, endocrinologists, and surgeons, not to mention pharmaceutical companies a profit motive to encourage this "transitioning."

The problem I have always had with this viewpoint is that we don't trust children under 16 to make any "life-changing decisions" because we consider them too immature and thus incapable of such choices. Hell, we even have many who would argue for this also arguing that 18 year old's are not mature enough to own a gun, suggesting a delay until at least 21, and for some preferably later. Yet they argue a child "knows" if he/she was not born the "right sex?"

So who is really protecting the children?

The delusional parents who seek social praise in what I consider another "Munchausen's by proxy" harming of children? Therapists who argue this nonsense? The Endocrinologists and Surgeons opening up a new source of practice profits? The Pharmaceutical industry?

Those of us who oppose this crap at least until the person is a legal adult?"