• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mangos

KidRocks

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
1,337
Reaction score
16
Location
right here
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
It's a sweetheart deal for India indeed, they get coveted nuclear technology, high tech arms such as Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F-18 highly sophisticated and combat-ready jet fighters. All India has to do open up about 14 of its nuclear reactor sites for inspection and pledge to be good!

And get this, India does not have to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

What's more, fast-breeder reactors, research reactors, reprocessing facilities and spent fuel stockpiles and many more facilities are to be exempt and excluded from safeguards.

Inspections would be at India's discretion. Does Iraq ring a bell?

Of course, keeping with the Bush policy, some details of the agreement are going to be kept secret from Congress, me and you.

Talk about selling out just to ensure a successful summit!

We do get mangos though!






http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060302...WJqP0AC;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. critics accused President George W. Bush on Thursday of selling out weapons non-proliferation goals in order to close a landmark nuclear deal with New Delhi, hardening battle lines as the U.S. Congress prepares to debate its fate.

Congress and the 44-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group must both approve the agreement, which would allow India, after three decades of pariah status, access to billions of dollars in U.S. and other foreign atomic technology and fuel to meet its soaring energy needs.

Although many U.S. lawmakers favor closer ties with the world's largest democracy, non-proliferation advocates said details that had so far emerged suggest Bush gave away too much in the nuclear agreement in an effort to ensure a successful summit with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in New Delhi.

Democratic Rep. Edward Markey (news, bio, voting record) of Massachusetts said the accord "undermines the security not only of the United States, but of the rest of the world."

"With one simple move the president has blown a hole in the nuclear rules that the entire world has been playing by and broken his own word to assure that we will not ship nuclear technology to India without the proper safeguards," said Markey, co-chair of the bi-partisan task force on non-proliferation.

Daryl Kimball of the Arms Control Association faulted the White House for a "rush to meet artificial deadlines (that) sold out core non-proliferation values" in favor of a deal that would "implicitly endorse, if not indirectly assist, the further growth of India's nuclear arsenal."

Until Thursday's deal, Washington and New Delhi were divided on how India will separate its military and civilian nuclear plants, opening the latter to international inspections as a hedge against weapons proliferation.

Officials said India agreed to list 14 of its 22 reactors as civilian and open them to international inspection...
 

Gibberish

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
6,339
Reaction score
1,269
Location
San Diego, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

Let's arm and train them in combat so they can attack us in 20 years like everyone else American has helped militarily.

I'm happy though because I get more Sobe's Mango Madness drinks!
 

KidRocks

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
1,337
Reaction score
16
Location
right here
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

Gibberish said:
Let's arm and train them in combat so they can attack us in 20 years like everyone else American has helped militarily.

I'm happy though because I get more Sobe's Mango Madness drinks!

That's right, and they will, believe me they will!
 

Korimyr the Rat

Baby Eating Monster
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
19,553
Reaction score
15,756
Location
Cheyenne, WY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

India's a parliamentary democracy and a long-time ally of the United States. They are also subject to the same terroristic threats that we are-- and often more so, because of territories disputed with Pakistan.

I don't like the idea of nuclear proliferation, but the genie's out of the bottle; if sweetheart deals help to keep nuclear powers firmly allied with the United States, then I am all for them.
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Everyone is over looking an important fact, India is a huge country, and they use as much oil as we do, they desperately need nuclear energy. I trust India to do the right thing, the people there are very decent, honorable, and I don't fear them using this technology for anything but energy, they already have WMD's, so this is a non-issue IMO.

And the Mango thing, that's just stupid racist talk, I don't appreciate it at all.:roll:
 

Captain America

Jedi Master
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
22,445
Reaction score
12,700
Location
Wisconsin
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
He said I ate the last mango in Paris
Took the last plane out of Saigon
Took the first fast boat to China
And Jimmy there's still so much to be done
****************J. Buffett

All the people jumping on Bush about this has to remember that Clinton is also blamed for selling technology to China. People in houses should not throw rocks.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
24,830
Reaction score
9,974
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

Gibberish said:
Let's arm and train them in combat so they can attack us in 20 years like everyone else American has helped militarily.

I'm happy though because I get more Sobe's Mango Madness drinks!
More gibberish. C'mon people, at least know the country, before blurting out this type of sophomoric nonesense.

Despite India's Hindu majority, more than 15 percent of its billion people are Muslims, outnumbering the Islamic population of Pakistan. In 2002, Militants tolerated (if no longer actively sponsored) by Pakistan staged yet another cross-border massacre in Indian-ruled Kashmir. New Delhi pondered retaliation, despite US anxieties over the effects another Indo-Pakistani conflict (perhaps with a nuclear exchange) would have had on our war against terror. Recently, we saw another gruesome flare-up of interfaith violence within India, as aggressive Hindu fundamentalists got an unpleasant surprise in the northwestern Indian state of Gujarat when Muslims responded to their hooliganism by burning them alive in a railway passenger car. The Hindu response was to massacre hundreds of Muslims across the state. So we are left with the impression, intensified by the media’s interest only in blood, disaster, and suffering on the subcontinent, that India remains locked in a hopeless struggle between Hindus and Muslims, both within and beyond its borders. The overarching reality is more complex, and far more encouraging.

Recurring violence between Hindus and Muslims within India is undeniably a serious problem. Widespread programs a decade ago killed Muslims by the thousands, as well as hundreds of Hindus. The founding of India and Pakistan was anointed with the blood of at least half a million Muslims and Hindus. But to gain an objective picture of the situation, we first need to consider the broad, enduring trends within multi-confessional India, and not merely the anomalies within those trends: In fact, the frequency and intensity of interfaith violence has decreased impressively over the past half century—despite the resurgence of virulent Hindu fundamentalism among a small minority of India’s citizens. Then we need to consider the numbers. With Muslims composing almost a fifth of its billion people, and given the poverty that still afflicts as much as four-fifths of India’s population, India looks more like a success story than a failure when it comes to tolerance. We may deplore the intermittent violence and death when it occurs, but today’s India is, to a far greater degree, the story of the dog that didn’t bark, of the hundreds of millions of Hindus and Muslims (as well as those of other faiths) who do not kill each other and who, despite seductive prejudices, work together as Indians first, whether in the government, in the military, or in business.

Overwhelmingly, India’s Muslims have accepted an Indian identity. Islamic extremism has not made nearly the inroads it has across the border in Pakistan or even next door in Bangladesh. Indian Muslims realize, for the most part, that their faith cannot express itself in acts of aggression without paying a high price, and that reasonable accommodation is much to their advantage. For all its merciless corruption, India is a rule-of-law state, displaying surprising religious diversity within its government and armed forces. All this seems to have encouraged a more flexible, markedly more tolerant form of Islam. One should not paint the picture in pious, stained-glass hues—and some would argue that Muslim docility is the result of repression—but there is something to be said for a country where a Muslim can enjoy a beer in public, where the murder of a compromised woman by her relatives is not accepted as business as usual, and where local programs shock citizens throughout the country.

In a way, the situation of Muslims in India resembles that of Muslims in the United States: Under competitive pressures, the religion adapts and evolves, no matter how fiercely an older generation digs in its heels or how appealing the radical pitch may be to the disoriented young. Despite the nagging violence that reappears like outbreaks of plague, the competitive aspects of Hinduism may, inadvertently, be doing more to keep Islam healthy than all the mosques between the Atlas and the Hindu Kush. States in which a single, repressive confession reigns are ill-equipped for change, while multi-confessional states, if governed by law, enjoy the dynamism sparked by competitive pressures. Where there is more than one religious option, no religion can afford to underperform.

India matters to the United States for a host of reasons, from the inevitability of a strategic compact between our two raucously democratic states—despite the inane bickering of the past, for which both sides bear their share of blame—to the long-term economic and human potential of the subcontinent. But the unremarked importance of a developing state in which Muslims live productively and equitably alongside citizens of other confessions may prove of the first importance. Above all, the Islamic world needs success stories to compete with its myths of persecution at the hands of others. But a deeper socioeconomic harmonization of Islam with other faiths in India would provide a beacon for all the lands lapped by the Indian Ocean and adjacent waters where Islam has come ashore.
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

GySgt said:
More gibberish. C'mon people, at least know the country, before blurting out this type of sophomoric nonesense.

Despite India's Hindu majority, more than 15 percent of its billion people are Muslims, outnumbering the Islamic population of Pakistan. In 2002, Militants tolerated (if no longer actively sponsored) by Pakistan staged yet another cross-border massacre in Indian-ruled Kashmir. New Delhi pondered retaliation, despite US anxieties over the effects another Indo-Pakistani conflict (perhaps with a nuclear exchange) would have had on our war against terror. Recently, we saw another gruesome flare-up of interfaith violence within India, as aggressive Hindu fundamentalists got an unpleasant surprise in the northwestern Indian state of Gujarat when Muslims responded to their hooliganism by burning them alive in a railway passenger car. The Hindu response was to massacre hundreds of Muslims across the state. So we are left with the impression, intensified by the media’s interest only in blood, disaster, and suffering on the subcontinent, that India remains locked in a hopeless struggle between Hindus and Muslims, both within and beyond its borders. The overarching reality is more complex, and far more encouraging.

Recurring violence between Hindus and Muslims within India is undeniably a serious problem. Widespread programs a decade ago killed Muslims by the thousands, as well as hundreds of Hindus. The founding of India and Pakistan was anointed with the blood of at least half a million Muslims and Hindus. But to gain an objective picture of the situation, we first need to consider the broad, enduring trends within multi-confessional India, and not merely the anomalies within those trends: In fact, the frequency and intensity of interfaith violence has decreased impressively over the past half century—despite the resurgence of virulent Hindu fundamentalism among a small minority of India’s citizens. Then we need to consider the numbers. With Muslims composing almost a fifth of its billion people, and given the poverty that still afflicts as much as four-fifths of India’s population, India looks more like a success story than a failure when it comes to tolerance. We may deplore the intermittent violence and death when it occurs, but today’s India is, to a far greater degree, the story of the dog that didn’t bark, of the hundreds of millions of Hindus and Muslims (as well as those of other faiths) who do not kill each other and who, despite seductive prejudices, work together as Indians first, whether in the government, in the military, or in business.

Overwhelmingly, India’s Muslims have accepted an Indian identity. Islamic extremism has not made nearly the inroads it has across the border in Pakistan or even next door in Bangladesh. Indian Muslims realize, for the most part, that their faith cannot express itself in acts of aggression without paying a high price, and that reasonable accommodation is much to their advantage. For all its merciless corruption, India is a rule-of-law state, displaying surprising religious diversity within its government and armed forces. All this seems to have encouraged a more flexible, markedly more tolerant form of Islam. One should not paint the picture in pious, stained-glass hues—and some would argue that Muslim docility is the result of repression—but there is something to be said for a country where a Muslim can enjoy a beer in public, where the murder of a compromised woman by her relatives is not accepted as business as usual, and where local programs shock citizens throughout the country.

In a way, the situation of Muslims in India resembles that of Muslims in the United States: Under competitive pressures, the religion adapts and evolves, no matter how fiercely an older generation digs in its heels or how appealing the radical pitch may be to the disoriented young. Despite the nagging violence that reappears like outbreaks of plague, the competitive aspects of Hinduism may, inadvertently, be doing more to keep Islam healthy than all the mosques between the Atlas and the Hindu Kush. States in which a single, repressive confession reigns are ill-equipped for change, while multi-confessional states, if governed by law, enjoy the dynamism sparked by competitive pressures. Where there is more than one religious option, no religion can afford to underperform.

India matters to the United States for a host of reasons, from the inevitability of a strategic compact between our two raucously democratic states—despite the inane bickering of the past, for which both sides bear their share of blame—to the long-term economic and human potential of the subcontinent. But the unremarked importance of a developing state in which Muslims live productively and equitably alongside citizens of other confessions may prove of the first importance. Above all, the Islamic world needs success stories to compete with its myths of persecution at the hands of others. But a deeper socioeconomic harmonization of Islam with other faiths in India would provide a beacon for all the lands lapped by the Indian Ocean and adjacent waters where Islam has come ashore.
Thank you Gunny, that was very interesting, and informative, you just successfully saved a doomed thread, good work soldier.;)
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
24,830
Reaction score
9,974
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

Deegan said:
Thank you Gunny, that was very interesting, and informative, you just successfully saved a doomed thread, good work soldier.;)

"Marine":cool:
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

GySgt said:
Oh, I apologize sir, what was I thinking?:doh

Semper Fi

 

Captain America

Jedi Master
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
22,445
Reaction score
12,700
Location
Wisconsin
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
I am concerned, however, how Pakistan is going to take the news of our new, cozy, nuclear relationship with India. Pakistan being our new friend and all....
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Captain America said:
I am concerned, however, how Pakistan is going to take the news of our new, cozy, nuclear relationship with India. Pakistan being our new friend and all....
That's a very good question, but I fear we don't have the relationship with Paki. that we have with India, I just thank God for Gandhi, and pray that Pakistan finds a leader as powerful and inviting as this man was.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
24,830
Reaction score
9,974
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Captain America said:
I am concerned, however, how Pakistan is going to take the news of our new, cozy, nuclear relationship with India. Pakistan being our new friend and all....
No doubt, it will be interesting. Pakistan is a whole different ball game. This is the problem with foreign diplomacy. It is near impossible to shake hands with a nation while not "snubbing" that nation's enemy. There is a lot of friction in dipomacy. Isolationalism doesn't work and diplomacy is a headache.

Though not completely lost, Pakistan is endangered. Pakistan has been the greatest disappointment among the major states that tried democracy. Pakistan is an artificial country (like Iraq), cobbled together from ethnically different parts and flooded early on with Muslim refugees from India — who still form a distinct social and political bloc. Instead of seeking unity, Pakistan's political parties exploited internal divisions for short-term advantage. Well-educated political families, such as the Bhuttos, took a page from the Chinese nationalists, telling Westerners exactly what we wanted to hear. Preaching democracy and the rule of law abroad, they looted shamelessly at home. And they blamed the colonial powers, then America, for the destruction of a once-promising society. No matter their political allegiance, Pakistan's party bosses stole everything in sight, reducing the country to stinging poverty and stunning violence. It wasn't just the remote frontiers that became lawless, but even Karachi, Pakistan's largest city.

The Pakistani military government attempting to rescue Pakistan is the country's last hope. The alternatives are chaos and terror. At present, Musharraf's government is a useful ally in combatting terror, but its greater contribution lies in preventing the country from collapsing into chaos. We all should hope that the day will come when Pakistan's military government becomes obsolete. But for now we must do two things: resist the cynical pleas of the displaced politicians who devastated their own homeland, and learn what we can from democracy's failure on the banks of the Indus. The two essential lessons are pertinent to Iraq.

- First, democracy faces an uphill struggle in tribal cultures where blood ties trump national interests.
- Second, democracy has no worse enemy than corruption.

The world doesn't need another Pakistan, where only bayonets hold the state together. If anyone dooms democracy in Iraq, it won't be the foreign terrorists, but a corrupt political elite. The politicians pave the way for the generals.


I got a little off topic here, but I thought it might be helpful to paint a broad stroke of the differences in environment between Pakistan and India.
 
Last edited:

jfuh

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
16,631
Reaction score
1,227
Location
Pacific Rim
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

I think this is just all bullshit. Yes, a non-signer of the nuclear proliferation treaty and we're going to send them nukes? WTF? Is there no one else on here that sees the major problem with this? Here we are preaching to the world about how bad nuclear proliferation is and then go right over to India and say here you go, here're some nukes.
Bush Inc. continuously goes around to discredit the US all around. Sure unilateral action is sometimes neccesary but giving them nukes?
Mind you we were once in bed with OBL, and in bed with Saddam. Trained OBL to fight against the soviets and look what happened? Wrote blank checks to Saddam to fight against Iran/Soviets and look what happened? Is the US now planning to invade India?
Seriously, some one needs to get thier head out of the bank vault and into reality. Weapons proliferation is only going to turn around and bite you in the *** sooner or later.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
24,830
Reaction score
9,974
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

jfuh said:
I think this is just all bullshit. Yes, a non-signer of the nuclear proliferation treaty and we're going to send them nukes? WTF? Is there no one else on here that sees the major problem with this? Here we are preaching to the world about how bad nuclear proliferation is and then go right over to India and say here you go, here're some nukes.
Bush Inc. continuously goes around to discredit the US all around. Sure unilateral action is sometimes neccesary but giving them nukes?
Mind you we were once in bed with OBL, and in bed with Saddam. Trained OBL to fight against the soviets and look what happened? Wrote blank checks to Saddam to fight against Iran/Soviets and look what happened? Is the US now planning to invade India?
Seriously, some one needs to get thier head out of the bank vault and into reality. Weapons proliferation is only going to turn around and bite you in the *** sooner or later.

We were and are friends with plenty of countries that have never turned on us. How many countries or individuals have turned on us? Grade us by our successes, not our failures. Is it your point that America should develop perfect foresight and ESP with every diplomatic move?

We have every reason to believe that India will not be a problem and no indicators that they will turn on us. There is however, plenty of indicators that Pakistan will grow into a problem. We want India to have nukes. It is tactically sound.
 

jfuh

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
16,631
Reaction score
1,227
Location
Pacific Rim
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

GySgt said:
We were and are friends with plenty of countries that have never turned on us. How many countries or individuals have turned on us?
This I can not argue with.

GySgt said:
Grade us by our successes, not our failures. Is it your point that America should develop perfect foresight and ESP with every diplomatic move?
No however we are talking about Nukes here, not your typical armament.

GYSgt said:
We have every reason to believe that India will not be a problem and no indicators that they will turn on us. There is however, plenty of indicators that Pakistan will grow into a problem. We want India to have nukes. It is tactically sound.
THat's not the point, it's the very nature of the hypocracy of it all. A complete blind eye to the NPT all together.
Also, there's no tact at all in having India to possess nukes.
 
Last edited:

python416

Active member
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Messages
484
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

GySgt said:
We were and are friends with plenty of countries that have never turned on us. How many countries or individuals have turned on us? Grade us by our successes, not our failures. Is it your point that America should develop perfect foresight and ESP with every diplomatic move?

We have every reason to believe that India will not be a problem and no indicators that they will turn on us. There is however, plenty of indicators that Pakistan will grow into a problem. We want India to have nukes. It is tactically sound.
Hey GySgt, that was a good PowerPoint doc - very informative and I can buy into the content. Thanks for sending it.

On this issue, I am somewhat confused though. I don't see the rationale behind allowing India to circumvent the NPT in this one case, unless US policy is to just ignore the treaty all together.

It is your position that the NPT should just be ignored?

What does the US gain here that it would not gain with stronger restrictions on India's nuclear programmes? I can't imagine India would have scaled back it allience with the US if this deal hadn't come through.

What does this deal do for regional stability in your opinion? Is it not concerning to have two non-NPT nuclear states side-by-side arguing over land?

Doesn't this deal technically allow India to develop nuclear weapons completely unchecked, something that (legally) the US isn't even allowed to do.

I remember you saying in another thread that Iran's rights under the NPT are trumped by the security concerns. I think this deal just makes it more difficult to define exactly what the US policy is on non-proliferation - especially if the US is willing to ignore the NPT.
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
There are some basic facts that some people are missing here.

India is a parliamentary democracy. They have a government responsible to its people, a people that by in large are not radical, even if they have a tendency to be mildly leftist.

India is threatened by two neighbors, one of whom was already a nuclear power, the other was being assisted by the one that was already a nuclear power to achieve their own bomb. Neither one of them are democracies with governments responsive to the own people.

India has been invaded by both of those countries and both of them hold territory that legitimately belongs to India.

If any country has a moral right to have nuclear weapons in the region, it is India. It DOES serve the purpose of stability because it provides a check on the expansionist designs of China who essentially have India surrounded with their occupation of Tibet and their allies in Pakistan and Burma.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
24,830
Reaction score
9,974
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

python416 said:
Hey GySgt, that was a good PowerPoint doc - very informative and I can buy into the content. Thanks for sending it.
No problem.
python416 said:
On this issue, I am somewhat confused though. I don't see the rationale behind allowing India to circumvent the NPT in this one case, unless US policy is to just ignore the treaty all together.

It is your position that the NPT should just be ignored?
Diplomacy is an ugly business. We live in a world full of enemies, "allies", and true Allies. We cannot allow rules and regulations keep us from helping those nations that have chosen to ally themselves with us as their (and ours) enemies get stronger.

US policy is very grey and it reflects a very grey world.


python416 said:
What does the US gain here that it would not gain with stronger restrictions on India's nuclear programmes? I can't imagine India would have scaled back it allience with the US if this deal hadn't come through.

What does this deal do for regional stability in your opinion? Is it not concerning to have two non-NPT nuclear states side-by-side arguing over land?
'Ludahai' summed it up nicely.

python416 said:
Doesn't this deal technically allow India to develop nuclear weapons completely unchecked, something that (legally) the US isn't even allowed to do.
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but I wouldn't think that India has a license to do whatever it wants.
python416 said:
I remember you saying in another thread that Iran's rights under the NPT are trumped by the security concerns. I think this deal just makes it more difficult to define exactly what the US policy is on non-proliferation - especially if the US is willing to ignore the NPT.
As I said above, we cannot be constrained by rules and regulations that were meant to keep nations at peace while dealing with nations that only want their peace. Today, we are dealing with a whole new problem that threatens global stability. With Radical Islam running rampant in Pakistan and the Pakistani military being the only strength holding that country together, India should be prepared for what may be an inevitable future.
 

jfuh

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
16,631
Reaction score
1,227
Location
Pacific Rim
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

ludahai said:
There are some basic facts that some people are missing here.

India is a parliamentary democracy. They have a government responsible to its people, a people that by in large are not radical, even if they have a tendency to be mildly leftist.
Doesn't matter. NPT.

ludahai said:
India is threatened by two neighbors, one of whom was already a nuclear power, the other was being assisted by the one that was already a nuclear power to achieve their own bomb. Neither one of them are democracies with governments responsive to the own people.
STill doesn't matter NPT.

ludahai said:
India has been invaded by both of those countries and both of them hold territory that legitimately belongs to India.
Have either of them Nuked India? No. Relevance? None - NPT.

ludahai said:
If any country has a moral right to have nuclear weapons in the region, it is India. It DOES serve the purpose of stability because it provides a check on the expansionist designs of China who essentially have India surrounded with their occupation of Tibet and their allies in Pakistan and Burma.
Is it China's fault that India can't get along with it's own neighbors? I suppose you would blame CHina also if one day the US couldn't get along with Mexico or Canada? Finally again, irrelevant - NPT.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
24,830
Reaction score
9,974
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

jfuh said:
Doesn't matter. NPT.

STill doesn't matter NPT.

Have either of them Nuked India? No. Relevance? None - NPT.

Is it China's fault that India can't get along with it's own neighbors? I suppose you would blame CHina also if one day the US couldn't get along with Mexico or Canada? Finally again, irrelevant - NPT.
The NPT is irrelevant. Rules are meant to protect not to hurt the good guys while the bad guys follow their own rules.

India isn't the problem. It's their neighbors that are unstable or rule through oppression.
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

jfuh said:
Doesn't matter. NPT.

STill doesn't matter NPT.

Have either of them Nuked India? No. Relevance? None - NPT.

Is it China's fault that India can't get along with it's own neighbors? I suppose you would blame CHina also if one day the US couldn't get along with Mexico or Canada? Finally again, irrelevant - NPT.
The NPT gives any nation the right to withdraw from the treaty if it believes it no longer protects its interests.
1.

Clearly, a nuclear and increasingly aggressive China, helping one of its neighbors who, along with China, continue to hold territory legitmately belonging to India, puts India in the situation where continued membership in the NPT regime was detrimental to its interests. It gave notice of withdrawal as required by the treaty.
 

jfuh

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
16,631
Reaction score
1,227
Location
Pacific Rim
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

ludahai said:
The NPT gives any nation the right to withdraw from the treaty if it believes it no longer protects its interests.
And the US is where on the NPT?

ludahai said:
Clearly, a nuclear and increasingly aggressive China, helping one of its neighbors who, along with China, continue to hold territory legitmately belonging to India, puts India in the situation where continued membership in the NPT regime was detrimental to its interests. It gave notice of withdrawal as required by the treaty.
Even before you go on any further, show how China is increasingly aggressive.
Also show the legitimacy of territory that belongs to India.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
24,830
Reaction score
9,974
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Sweetheart Deal: India gets coveted nuclear technology & hi tech arms we get mang

jfuh said:
Even before you go on any further, show how China is increasingly aggressive. Also show the legitimacy of territory that belongs to India.
Uh-oh. Keep in mind that 'Ludahai' is in Taiwan and has seen the aggression on his local news.
 
Top Bottom