Sweden: Less lockdown, more deaths, no economic benefit

[Visbek]

NYT: Sweden Has Become the World’s Cautionary Tale

LONDON — Ever since the coronavirus emerged in Europe, Sweden has captured international attention by conducting an unorthodox, open-air experiment. It has allowed the world to examine what happens in a pandemic when a government allows life to carry on largely unhindered.

This is what has happened: Not only have thousands more people died than in neighboring countries that imposed lockdowns, but Sweden’s economy has fared little better.

“They literally gained nothing,” said Jacob F. Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “It’s a self-inflicted wound, and they have no economic gains.”....


Per million people, Sweden has suffered 40 percent more deaths than the United States, 12 times more than Norway, seven times more than Finland and six times more than Denmark....


Sweden’s central bank expects its economy to contract by 4.5 percent this year, a revision from a previously expected gain of 1.3 percent. The unemployment rate jumped to 9 percent in May from 7.1 percent in March. “The overall damage to the economy means the recovery will be protracted, with unemployment remaining elevated,” Oxford Economics concluded in a recent research note.

This is more or less how damage caused by the pandemic has played out in Denmark, where the central bank expects that the economy will shrink 4.1 percent this year, and where joblessness has edged up to 5.6 percent in May from 4.1 percent in March.

In short, Sweden suffered a vastly higher death rate while failing to collect on the expected economic gains.

Surprise!

Full disclosure, at first I did think they might fare better than this in terms of cases and deaths, as many Swedes were voluntarily distancing, and they have benefits like universal health care and paid sick leave. (I knew they wouldn't see any economic benefit, though.) Apparently, explicit government action is even more important than I thought.

 

[Mongidig]

The Swedish people see their top health expert as a rock star.

I don't see much written about the mental health benefits of not shutting down. The economy is hurting because the world economy is hurting. Imports and exports are a big part of their economy. Is it possible they will be in a much better position once the pandemic is over to rev up the economic gains? Are they losing businesses and industries like other countries or are they just temporarily struggling?

It seems the Swedish people are ok with it. I'd also say it's much too early to judge their overall success. Talk to me in a year and we will have a better idea if this was a good idea or not.

Don't forget, they massively screwed up in protecting their elderly population. Had they got this right the numbers would be way different.

 

[swing_voter]

Oh well, the "herd immunity" thing was worth a try.

 

[Visbek]

The Swedish people see their top health expert as a rock star.

His profile has fallen in the past few weeks. I wonder why?

The economy is hurting because the world economy is hurting. Imports and exports are a big part of their economy. Is it possible they will be in a much better position once the pandemic is over to rev up the economic gains?

Not really, no.

Are they losing businesses and industries like other countries or are they just temporarily struggling?

They are losing businesses and industries just like everyone else.

It seems the Swedish people are ok with it.

No, actually, Swedes are not happy about the situation. The government has started an inquiry into its policies. That's not a new thing, either.
Swedes round on Sweden’s coronavirus approach - POLITICO

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

I'd also say it's much too early to judge their overall success. Talk to me in a year and we will have a better idea if this was a good idea or not.

Or, we can already see how being too lax causes the virus to spread.

Don't forget, they massively screwed up in protecting their elderly population. Had they got this right the numbers would be way different.

Or, the problem is that it isn't really possible to sufficiently isolate the elderly (and other high-risk groups) from everyone else.

 

[Glitch]

NYT: Sweden Has Become the World’s Cautionary Tale

...

Surprise!

Full disclosure, at first I did think they might fare better than this in terms of cases and deaths, as many Swedes were voluntarily distancing, and they have benefits like universal health care and paid sick leave. (I knew they wouldn't see any economic benefit, though.) Apparently, explicit government action is even more important than I thought.

Consider the source. It isn't as if the New York Times was remotely credible.

When the US was hit with the Hong Kong Flu in 1969 we had 100,000 Americans die (159,000 using today's population), and yet we still managed to put a man on the moon in July and held Woodstock in August (so much for "social distancing" nonsense). What we did not do is intentionally destroy our economy and the lives of tens of millions of Americans because leftist media decided to incite panic and chaos in order to disrupt the election.

We certainly did not put infected patients into nursing homes, by Executive Order, so that we could maximize the number of deaths among the elderly, like Democrat Governors Cuomo, Wolf, Murphy, and Newsom. Those Democrat Governors need to be charged with mass murder.

Don't buy into their leftist indoctrintation and deliberate lies.

 

[joko104]

Lying - the #1 tactic of the Democratic Party and Democratic MSM.

Sweden has a lower death rate than the UK, Belgium, and MANY Democratic states in the USA - and Sweden did not lose trillions and trillions of dollars, throw 10s of millions of their citizens into unemployment and poverty, did not destroy tens of thousands of businesses, did not order people under house arrest, and did not engage in a non-stop 24/7 bio-terrorism campaign against their own people.

This is no different than the incessant lying about Florida and Texas - both who have DRAMATICALLY lower death rates than MANY Democratic run states who imposes the strictest restrictions and requirements.

But NOTHING ever stops the Democratic Party, their talking heads in the media or their groupies from telling the same lie over and over and over and over - usually to divert from the facts about Democratic politicians and Democratic run government. THE HIGHEST DEATH RATES - much higher than Sweden - are in DEMOCRATIC controlled states.

 

[CaughtInThe]

so letting a bunch of your citizens die prior to the medical community catching up wasn't a good idea??

 

[Glitch]

so letting a bunch of your citizens die prior to the medical community catching up wasn't a good idea??

Citizens die every year, and the medical community is always catching up. What we don't do is make it much worse by taking away everyone's source of income and destroying the economy. That was sheer panic. Deliberately incited by the anti-American leftist media.

Alaska opened up the State on April 24th and there has been a total of 16 deaths. It has been no worse that any other influenza epidemic that hits us each and every year. The difference this time was entirely our fault. We shutdown the State and destroyed our economy. Tourism is the third biggest employer in the State. Many Alaskans depend on the tourist income from the Summer to pay their way through the Winter. The two million tourists did not arrive this Summer in Alaska. Which means tens of thousands of Alaskans are going to be struggling this coming Winter. More Alaskans will die because of this deliberately incited panic and the intentional destruction of the economy by government than will have died from COVID-19.

 

[Visbek]

Consider the source. It isn't as if the New York Times was remotely credible.

:roll:

The source for the data is the Swedish government, and its central bank. Try to keep up.

When the US was hit with the Hong Kong Flu in 1969 we had 100,000 Americans die (159,000 using today's population), and yet we still managed to put a man on the moon in July and held Woodstock in August (so much for "social distancing" nonsense).

:roll:

COVID-19 is not like the flu. For example, during the 1969 flu, we already had some immunity from previous similar flu strains, and antibiotics that we knew worked.

Plus, the estimates range from 34,000 to 100,000. Do you really think no one can see when you put your thumb on the scale?

What we did not do is intentionally destroy our economy....

That's because national social distancing wasn't required for the 1969 flu -- and it is definitely needed for COVID-19. See how that works?

We certainly did not put infected patients into nursing homes, by Executive Order, so that we could maximize the number of deaths among the elderly....

:roll:

Stop lying. Patients were only sent home during the recovery phase, and only to nursing homes that could take care of those patients. COVID-19 is not contagious forever, meaning few of those patients were likely contagious. Hospitals were overwhelmed, and had to turn away patients -- so if they hadn't enacted those policies, more sick people would be sent home (and possibly spread the disease that way), and some would have died.

Unsurprisingly, the facts show that the policy did not result in a massive spread of the virus. New York State has the lowest percentage of COVID-19 deaths in nursing home at 21% -- most other states are around 40%. There wasn't an explosion in cases after the policy started; there wasn't a sudden drop in cases after it ended, either.

Most importantly: Nothing you've written here in any way refutes ANY of the facts. Sweden has a higher case and death rate than most other nations, and its economy is getting hit just as badly as everyone else.

Don't buy into their leftist indoctrintation and deliberate lies.

Medice, cura te ipsum.

 

[Visbek]

Citizens die every year, and the medical community is always catching up. What we don't do is make it much worse by taking away everyone's source of income and destroying the economy. That was sheer panic. Deliberately incited by the anti-American leftist media.

:roll:

Congratulations on completely missing the point. The economy was going to tank, no matter what. In fact, all these denials are going to make it worse, because that means the virus will last longer and kill more people.

Alaska opened up the State on April 24th and there has been a total of 16 deaths. It has been no worse that any other influenza epidemic that hits us each and every year.

Oh. Well if Alaska is okay, then the evidence from every other state must be false. :roll:

Alaska is helped by its low density and remoteness. However, those same features all but ensure that if the virus was allowed to spread, Alaska would be completely screwed, because of the lack of medical resources, including trained medical professionals. In the Lower 48, it's relatively easy to bring in medical workers from states with lower rates. In Alaska? Not so much.

Plus, given the climate, Alaskans will spend more time socializing indoors, which is almost certainly a higher-transmission environment than outdoor options. Without stay-at-home orders, the virus will spread faster.

Oh, and Alaska is not immune to epidemics. Read up on the 1918 flu and how it decimated entire villages and towns in Alaska.

What's really happening is you're taking the beneficial effects of the lockdown for granted. Without those orders, there is a pretty good chance the virus would have spread faster, and overwhelmed medical resources.

Tourism is the third biggest employer in the State. Many Alaskans depend on the tourist income from the Summer to pay their way through the Winter. The two million tourists did not arrive this Summer in Alaska.

So you think that millions of tourists were going to show up this summer, if the government of Alaska didn't take steps? LOL

Millions of Americans lost their jobs. Millions more are worried they're next. Who wants to get on 4- to 7-hour flight, and stay in a hotel, in a state that isn't locked down, and isn't taking precautions?

More Alaskans will die because of this deliberately incited panic and the intentional destruction of the economy by government than will have died from COVID-19.

Nope, nope. Economic downturns don't increase mortality rates. Surprisingly, the relationship is inverted;

Economic crises and mortality | VOX, CEPR Policy Portal

 

[CaughtInThe]

Citizens die every year, and the medical community is always catching up.

^ that's all you have to read (in the middle of a pandemic) to know that poster isn't pro life. bookmark it in cause he argues abortion.

 

[George50]

Citizens die every year, and the medical community is always catching up. What we don't do is make it much worse by taking away everyone's source of income and destroying the economy. That was sheer panic. Deliberately incited by the anti-American leftist media.

Alaska opened up the State on April 24th and there has been a total of 16 deaths. It has been no worse that any other influenza epidemic that hits us each and every year. The difference this time was entirely our fault. We shutdown the State and destroyed our economy. Tourism is the third biggest employer in the State. Many Alaskans depend on the tourist income from the Summer to pay their way through the Winter. The two million tourists did not arrive this Summer in Alaska. Which means tens of thousands of Alaskans are going to be struggling this coming Winter. More Alaskans will die because of this deliberately incited panic and the intentional destruction of the economy by government than will have died from COVID-19.

It seems like you should be pretty happy with your state’s response. They shut down to avoid a massive outbreak and reopened before the tourist season.

When they reopened unlike many others, they had adequate testing and contact tracing so they could find infected people and quarantine before they infected others and caused a new outbreak.

Bottom line is they did a pretty good job, that’s WHY the deaths are so low. It’s not a miracle. Unfortunately the virus is starting to pick up again there but hopefully they can still control it.

It seems to me you are going to get more tourists if you are known as a relatively safe place to go than somewhere that the virus has run amok like Florida who has no plan to control the virus.

Covid Act Now

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[Glitch]

It seems like you should be pretty happy with your state’s response. They shut down to avoid a massive outbreak and reopened before the tourist season.

Hardly. The governor shut down the State when there were only 10 people testing positive for COVID-19. The States should never have been shut-down in the first place. That was pure panic. The Governor killed more Alaskans than he saved by intentionally destroying the lives of tens of thousands of Alaska over nothing more than a common influenza epidemic.

When they reopened unlike many others, they had adequate testing and contact tracing so they could find infected people and quarantine before they infected others and caused a new outbreak.

No they didn't. Even today we've tested fewer than 1% of the population. Nobody was ever quarantined. Anchorage (because of its leftist Mayor) is the only city in Alaska illegally requiring masks. To which nobody is paying any attention.

Bottom line is they did a pretty good job, that’s WHY the deaths are so low. It’s not a miracle. Unfortunately the virus is starting to pick up again there but hopefully they can still control it.

They did an excellent job if the goal was to intentionally kill more Alaskans than COVID-19. Before next Winter is over there will be a lot of dead Alaskans because the Governor panicked and destroyed the economy.

It seems to me you are going to get more tourists if you are known as a relatively safe place to go than somewhere that the virus has run amok like Florida who has no plan to control the virus.

Covid Act Now

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What fantasy world are you living in? The two million tourists that arrive every Summer did not show up this Summer. Tourism is the third biggest employer in Alaska, and tens of thousands of Alaskans are dependent on earning enough money during the Summer so they can survive the Winter. Because of the stupid irrational panic, that will never happen now. More Alaskans will lose their lives because of this intentional and irrational panic than have been killed by COVID-19.

 

[Peter King]

Lying - the #1 tactic of the Democratic Party and Democratic MSM.

Sweden has a lower death rate than the UK, Belgium, and MANY Democratic states in the USA - and Sweden did not lose trillions and trillions of dollars, throw 10s of millions of their citizens into unemployment and poverty, did not destroy tens of thousands of businesses, did not order people under house arrest, and did not engage in a non-stop 24/7 bio-terrorism campaign against their own people.

This is no different than the incessant lying about Florida and Texas - both who have DRAMATICALLY lower death rates than MANY Democratic run states who imposes the strictest restrictions and requirements.

But NOTHING ever stops the Democratic Party, their talking heads in the media or their groupies from telling the same lie over and over and over and over - usually to divert from the facts about Democratic politicians and Democratic run government. THE HIGHEST DEATH RATES - much higher than Sweden - are in DEMOCRATIC controlled states.

If lying is the number 1 tactic of the democratic part, then you would be a democrat wouldn't you.

Sweden has a population density of 59 people per square mile, the United Kingdom has one of 725 people per square mile. For people who accept the tenets of reality, population density matters. If you live very close to one another the odds of infecting someone else is much higher than in countries where people are socially distancing naturally by having much less people living on a square mile. That is also one the reasons why it hit NYC that hard. NYC has a population density of 27,000 per square mile.

And you did try and read did you not, the article says Sweden may have lost more than comparable countries in the covid crisis. Why is logical thinking so difficult? The Swedish industry is just as screwed as other countries industry because they customers are in a lockdown.

That you have an illogical nonsense view on stopping/limiting the curve is just that, your view. A totally barrage of nonsense and the sad thing that politicians who follow Trump like little puppy dogs and Trumpist people have caused the opposite of flattening the curve, they made the curve explode.

And lying about Florida and Texas? :lamo:

Sure, the hospitals are lying when they say they are full to bursting point, they are lying when they report their ICU's at over 100% capacity. It must also be a lie of course that 117 people died in Arizona of course.

 

[Visbek]

Hardly. The governor shut down the State when there were only 10 people testing positive for COVID-19.

Hello? If he shut down when there were already 10,000 cases, it would be too late.

The States should never have been shut-down in the first place. That was pure panic.

Hello? It was the right thing to do. In a pandemic, when we don't fully understand how the virus spreads or whether recovery builds immunity, it is better to overreact than underreact.

The Governor killed more Alaskans than he saved by intentionally destroying the lives of tens of thousands of Alaska over nothing more than a common influenza epidemic.

:roll:

That is complete and total nonsense. Economic downturns do not increase mortality.

No they didn't. Even today we've tested fewer than 1% of the population. Nobody was ever quarantined. Anchorage (because of its leftist Mayor) is the only city in Alaska illegally requiring masks. To which nobody is paying any attention.

Good grief.

It's not about the volume of tests, it's about sufficient numbers of tests and capacity. Alaska's positivity rate is very low -- 1.7%. That means the state is doing very well with testing. (In contrast, Texas is around 14% and rising.)

There is nothing even remotely illegal about mandating masks.

Alaska does require out-of-state visitors to arrive with proof of a negative test or quarantine for 14 days, and take a follow-up test as well.

What fantasy world are you living in? The two million tourists that arrive every Summer did not show up this Summer.

What fantasy world are you living in? They weren't coming anyway, no matter what Alaska's government did.

 

[jaeger19]

Citizens die every year, and the medical community is always catching up. What we don't do is make it much worse by taking away everyone's source of income and destroying the economy. That was sheer panic. Deliberately incited by the anti-American leftist media.

Alaska opened up the State on April 24th and there has been a total of 16 deaths. It has been no worse that any other influenza epidemic that hits us each and every year. The difference this time was entirely our fault. We shutdown the State and destroyed our economy. Tourism is the third biggest employer in the State. Many Alaskans depend on the tourist income from the Summer to pay their way through the Winter. The two million tourists did not arrive this Summer in Alaska. Which means tens of thousands of Alaskans are going to be struggling this coming Winter. More Alaskans will die because of this deliberately incited panic and the intentional destruction of the economy by government than will have died from COVID-19.

Well this is a load of crap. Just saying.

The reason that Alaska has had few deaths is because Alaska shutdown the state and because they mandated a 14 day quarantine for visitors from out of state.

Duh!..

IF Alaska hadn't done those things.. your economy would be way way worse.

Just as my state opened up too early.. and now we are looking down the barrel of a longer economic problem.

 

[George50]

Hardly. The governor shut down the State when there were only 10 people testing positive for COVID-19. The States should never have been shut-down in the first place. That was pure panic. The Governor killed more Alaskans than he saved by intentionally destroying the lives of tens of thousands of Alaska over nothing more than a common influenza epidemic.

No they didn't. Even today we've tested fewer than 1% of the population. Nobody was ever quarantined. Anchorage (because of its leftist Mayor) is the only city in Alaska illegally requiring masks. To which nobody is paying any attention.

They did an excellent job if the goal was to intentionally kill more Alaskans than COVID-19. Before next Winter is over there will be a lot of dead Alaskans because the Governor panicked and destroyed the economy.



What fantasy world are you living in? The two million tourists that arrive every Summer did not show up this Summer. Tourism is the third biggest employer in Alaska, and tens of thousands of Alaskans are dependent on earning enough money during the Summer so they can survive the Winter. Because of the stupid irrational panic, that will never happen now. More Alaskans will lose their lives because of this intentional and irrational panic than have been killed by COVID-19.

You are just making things up. Who do you think you are? Trump? The governor shut down the state on March 27 when you had 70 cases, not 10, two days later you had 100. That was the right time to shut down. Perhaps you don’t understand exponential spread. Wait a week or two and it would have been out of control.

The shutdown was lifted before the tourist season so your complaining about it makes no sense. People don’t want to travel to someplace that’s unsafe so the shutdown was a plus for tourism because it made things safer and more attractive to tourists.

Testing...just making it up again. 131,000 tests so far, 731,000 people, oops not fewer than 1%, wrong again. Closer to 18% than 1%.

Nobody quarantined? Made that up too! Alaska has a robust test, quarantine and contact tracing program with 140 tracers. From your state website:



“In order to keep a lid on COVID, we must:

Test widely;
Isolate all infected people;
Find everyone who has been in contact with infected people;
Have all contacts self-quarantine for 14 days.
Help box the virus in, Alaska!

What is contact tracing and how does it work in Alaska?
Contact tracing is a core disease control measure that is used worldwide to help prevent the spread of contagious diseases. The process of contact tracing is as follows:

Public health case investigators work with positive cases to identify all individuals who may have been in contact with the person during the timeframe they were contagious. For COVID-19, this is considered the two days prior to symptom onset for symptomatic cases or two days prior to the sample collection date for asymptomatic cases. These people are known as “close contacts.”

When possible, the positive case provides the names and contact information (phone numbers, email addresses) for the people that were in close contact with him/her during the infectious period. Case investigators may also have to work with employers if a positive case attended work while infectious but cannot remember who they came into close contact with.

The contact tracer then communicates with the close contacts, letting them know of the potential exposure. Close contacts are not told who the case is, just that they were potentially exposed. Close contacts are asked to quarantine for 14 days since last exposure to the positive case and to look for symptoms of COVID-19 disease during their quarantine period.

Contact tracers check-in with identified close contacts to inquire about symptoms and provide support to ensure they have what they need to remain quarantined for 14 days from last exposure.

Contact tracers will also ask people in quarantine if they have left their quarantine location at any point or if they have had any visitors. This information is important because, if the close contact becomes a case, then anyone they might have infected will need to be contacted.

To date within Alaska, case investigators have contacted 95% of the positive cases within two hours of the Section of Epidemiology being notified of a positive test.”




Masks...explain why it’s illegal to require masks...or are you just making that up too?

It’s a shame tourism has tanked in Alaska but you don’t even mention the main reasons why. Reasons like no one wants to travel on a cruise ship or airplane and the strict quarantine/testing rules for people arriving in the state.

Fantasy world? Seems to me that the one who is living in a fantasy world is the one who is just making things up.


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[99percenter]

Oh well, the "herd immunity" thing was worth a try.

No it was not worth a try.

 

[Glitch]

Well this is a load of crap. Just saying.

The reason that Alaska has had few deaths is because Alaska shutdown the state and because they mandated a 14 day quarantine for visitors from out of state.

Duh!..

IF Alaska hadn't done those things.. your economy would be way way worse.

Just as my state opened up too early.. and now we are looking down the barrel of a longer economic problem.

So you are trying to claim that if the Governor had not intentionally destroyed the economy, the economy would have been much worse?

What kind of stupidty is that? Do you even think about what you post?

 

[Glitch]

You are just making things up. Who do you think you are? Trump? The governor shut down the state on March 27 when you had 70 cases, not 10, two days later you had 100. That was the right time to shut down. Perhaps you don’t understand exponential spread. Wait a week or two and it would have been out of control.

Actually, the Governor shut down the State March 11th, not the 27th, and reopened the State April 24th. He was completely wrong to shut down the State, and he will ultimately be responsible for killing more Alaskans than COVID-19 because of his irrational panic.

Nobody quarantined? Made that up too! Alaska has a robust test, quarantine and contact tracing program with 140 tracers. From your state website:

Not a single person was ever quarantined. The only city that illegally required the wearing of masks was Anchorage, and nobody cares what the leftist POS Mayor wants, and the police are not enforcing his illegal dictates.

Masks...explain why it’s illegal to require masks...or are you just making that up too?

State, and city governments must abide by the US Constitution just like the federal government, including during emergencies. As much as the anti-American leftist scum may desire it, the Bill of Rights do not magically disappear just because they declare some kind of emergency. That includes our right under both the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment to due process of law any time government seeks to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property.

Which makes any government mandate about quarantines, masks, or "social distancing" illegal and unenforceable. Government may ask, and we can volunteer, but it cannot be mandated for a population, only individually and only through a court of law where government must provide evidence that proves their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

It’s a shame tourism has tanked in Alaska but you don’t even mention the main reasons why. Reasons like no one wants to travel on a cruise ship or airplane and the strict quarantine/testing rules for people arriving in the state.

I did mention the main reason why - pure irrational panic. The anti-American leftist media deliberately incited terror and our weak-minded politicians fell for the scam. Most of the Democrat Governors, of course, used the panic as an opportunity to intentionally kill thousands more in order to try to make political points against Trump, and they should be charged with mass murder.

More Alaskans died during the 2018 influenza epidemic than have died from COVID-19, yet we didn't intentionally destroy our economy in 2018. This panic, economic destruction, and the death of thousands of Americans can be laid entirely at the feet of the Democratic Party terrorist organization.

 

[Jean-s]

so letting a bunch of your citizens die prior to the medical community catching up wasn't a good idea??

Sweden's government is a disaster. Conservative Americans won't believe the reports but considering the USA with a world population of 4¼% and a Covid-19 death rate of 24% so should be treated with utter disregard when they praise Sweden.
• Sweden: coronavirus cases | Statista

Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the U.S. - Statistics & Facts | Statista

 

[George50]

Actually, the Governor shut down the State March 11th, not the 27th, and reopened the State April 24th. He was completely wrong to shut down the State, and he will ultimately be responsible for killing more Alaskans than COVID-19 because of his irrational panic.

Not a single person was ever quarantined. The only city that illegally required the wearing of masks was Anchorage, and nobody cares what the leftist POS Mayor wants, and the police are not enforcing his illegal dictates.

State, and city governments must abide by the US Constitution just like the federal government, including during emergencies. As much as the anti-American leftist scum may desire it, the Bill of Rights do not magically disappear just because they declare some kind of emergency. That includes our right under both the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment to due process of law any time government seeks to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property.

Which makes any government mandate about quarantines, masks, or "social distancing" illegal and unenforceable. Government may ask, and we can volunteer, but it cannot be mandated for a population, only individually and only through a court of law where government must provide evidence that proves their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

I did mention the main reason why - pure irrational panic. The anti-American leftist media deliberately incited terror and our weak-minded politicians fell for the scam. Most of the Democrat Governors, of course, used the panic as an opportunity to intentionally kill thousands more in order to try to make political points against Trump, and they should be charged with mass murder.

More Alaskans died during the 2018 influenza epidemic than have died from COVID-19, yet we didn't intentionally destroy our economy in 2018. This panic, economic destruction, and the death of thousands of Americans can be laid entirely at the feet of the Democratic Party terrorist organization.

There you go again! Just making stuff up. The Declaration of a Health Disaster Emergency was signed on March 11 which does nothing except allow the Governor to issue health mandates. The shutdown mandate was signed 3/27 and effective the next day at 8am.

https://gov.alaska.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/03272020-SOA-COVID-19-Health-Mandate-012.pdf

Odd that for some reason you seem to believe that no one has been quarantined. Especially since Alaska has an entire crew of 140 people dedicated to doing just that. Must be that fantasy world you live in.

Apparently you don’t understand that governments make laws and due process occurs after you break the law if you want to dispute the punishment.

A mask law is analogous to a speed limit law. The government mandates it and if you break the law you are entitled to due process.

You also don’t seem to understand that the reason few Alaskans have died due to COVID-19 was BECAUSE of the actions taken. It seems like you would be much happier if lots of Alaskans had died, but that could only have made tourism worse not better.

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[Glitch]

There you go again! Just making stuff up. The Declaration of a Health Disaster Emergency was signed on March 11 which does nothing except allow the Governor to issue health mandates. The shutdown mandate was signed 3/27 and effective the next day at 8am.

https://gov.alaska.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/03272020-SOA-COVID-19-Health-Mandate-012.pdf

Odd that for some reason you seem to believe that no one has been quarantined. Especially since Alaska has an entire crew of 140 people dedicated to doing just that. Must be that fantasy world you live in.

Apparently you don’t understand that governments make laws and due process occurs after you break the law if you want to dispute the punishment.

A mask law is analogous to a speed limit law. The government mandates it and if you break the law you are entitled to due process.


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Where did you get your civics education? Executive Orders are not laws, and not enforceable as law. Only the State legislature has the authority to enact laws, not Governors. I realize that you want to live in a fascist state where government dictates your actions for every waking moment like a good leftist, but that is not how the US was created. Not a single person has been quarantined by force in Alaska. The government has asked, and some people have volunteered. Most are too busy trying to put their lives back together after government irrationally panicked and destroyed it and don't give a damn about any government mandates. So you will have to find your jollies some other way, because none of the mandates are legal and none will ever be enforced, at least in Alaska. Those that are enforced in other Democrat-controlled sh*thole States will easily have them overturned by the courts.

 

[maxparrish]

NYT: Sweden Has Become the World’s Cautionary Tale

Not only have thousands more people died than in neighboring countries that imposed lockdowns, but Sweden’s economy has fared little better.

“They literally gained nothing,” said Jacob F. Kirkegaard, ... “It’s a self-inflicted wound, and they have no economic gains.”....

Per million people, Sweden has suffered 40 percent more deaths than the United States, 12 times more than Norway, seven times more than Finland and six times more than Denmark....

Sweden’s central bank expects its economy to contract by 4.5 percent this year, ... The unemployment rate jumped to 9 percent in May from 7.1 percent in March. ...

This is more or less how damage caused by the pandemic has played out in Denmark, where the central bank expects that the economy will shrink 4.1 percent this year, and where joblessness has edged up to 5.6 percent in May from 4.1 percent in March.

In short, Sweden suffered a vastly higher death rate while failing to collect on the expected economic gains.[/color]

Surprise!...

What is not a surprise is your continued use of a blindered data analysis to sell a forgone conclusion, disingenuous at best and outright fraud at its worst. In selecting ONE tiny country, Denmark, out of the 26 countries to compare to Sweden - you ginned the conclusion you were seeking.

Lets start with death rates, shall we? Were you not cherry picking you might have noticed a few others, some with the most experience with LOCKDOWNs: (Worldometer):


1 San Marino 1,238
2 Belgium 843
3 Andorra 673
4 UK 656
5 Spain 617
6 Italy 577
7 Sweden 543
8 France 459

Oh wait, that doesn't sell your agenda, does it?

Second, let's look at economics between the US and Sweden in alternate strategies:

Swedish Unemployment before Covid 6.5-7 percent.
US Unemployment before Covid 3.8 percent

Swedish Unemployment at peak of crisis: 9 percent.
US Unemployment at peak: 14.7 percent (highest since great depression).

So Sweden's went up about 2 percent from baselne. The US went up about 10 percent, five times as much.

US annual output fell 4.8 percent in first quarter, Sweden's rose .4 percent.

AND let's compare it to the summer outlook of Europe, shall we?

IN FACT of the 27 countries in the EU, Sweden and Denmark (-5.3 percent growth) are virtually tied for anticipated least affected economies from COVID this summer, and Poland is the least of all. On the other hand Belgium is -8.8 percent growth, and Italy, France, and Spain range from -10.5 to -11.2 percent growth.

Finally, lets look at the cost to Sweden's budgetary and fiscal impacts compared to that of the US:

Sweden projects its annual deficit will increase to 5-5.7 percent of gdp, the modest increase due to their less costly relief measures to keep businesses and employees working.

The US (CFRB) reports on the cost of the US lockdown strategy:

. Due to the effects of the crisis and legislation enacted to combat it, debt and deficits will now grow much higher, to never-before-seen levels both in dollars and as a share of Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

Our latest projections find that under current law, budget deficits will total more than $3.8 trillion (18.7 percent of GDP) this year and $2.1 trillion (9.7 percent of GDP) in 2021. We project debt held by the public will exceed the size of the economy by the end of Fiscal Year 2020 and eclipse the prior record set after World War II by 2023.

Moreover, here is the current cost to the US of the lockdown-shutdown strategy:

In other words, to keep the economy getting even worse another $16,500 in borrowing PER AMERICAN HOUSEHOLD was required...rather than keeping businesses open.

FINALLY, you can fairly note that Sweden would be doing EVEN BETTER had their economy not been so closely integrated in trade with other EU countries. BUT THEN that has been the point, the US is not as closely integrated or dependent on trade as Europe or China, which makes the strategy of not locking down even MORE EFFECTIVE.

Clearly we should have pursued a modified version of the Swedish strategy.

So when are you going to cease running to the disreputable and now openly ideological NYT for instructions on your thinking? How many times must anyone be embarrassed by their one-sided analysis?

file:///C:/Users/15106/Downloads/Summer_2020_Tables_EN.pdf.pdf
CBO Releases New Economic Projections | Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget
Daily Update of COVID-19 Costs

 

[PeteEU]

What is not a surprise is your continued use of a blindered data analysis to sell a forgone conclusion, disingenuous at best and outright fraud at its worst. In selecting ONE tiny country, Denmark, out of the 26 countries to compare to Sweden - you ginned the conclusion you were seeking.

Lets start with death rates, shall we? Were you not cherry picking you might have noticed a few others, some with the most experience with LOCKDOWNs: (Worldometer):


1San Marino 1,238
2Belgium 843
3Andorra 673
4UK 656
5Spain 617
6Italy 577
7Sweden 543
8France 459

Oh wait, that doesn't sell your agenda, does it?

Second, let's look at economics between the US and Sweden in alternate strategies:

Swedish Unemployment before Covid 6.5-7 percent.
US Unemployment before Covid 3.8 percent

Swedish Unemployment at peak of crisis: 9 percent.
US Unemployment at peak: 14.7 percent (highest since great depression).

So Sweden's went up about 2 percent from baselne. The US went up about 10 percent, five times as much.

US annual output fell 4.8 percent in first quarter, Sweden's rose .4 percent.

AND let's compare it to the summer outlook of Europe, shall we?

IN FACT of the 27 countries in the EU, Sweden and Denmark (-5.3 percent growth) are virtually tied for anticipated least affected economies from COVID this summer, and Poland is the least of all. On the other hand Belgium is -8.8 percent growth, and Italy, France, and Spain range from -10.5 to -11.2 percent growth.

Finally, lets look at the cost to Sweden's budgetary and fiscal impacts compared to that of the US:

Sweden projects its annual deficit will increase to 5-5.7 percent of gdp, the modest increase due to their less costly relief measures to keep businesses and employees working.

The US (CFRB) reports on the cost of the US lockdown strategy:




Moreover, here is the current cost to the US of the lockdown-shutdown strategy:

In other words, to keep the economy getting even worse another $16,500 in borrowing PER AMERICAN HOUSEHOLD was required...rather than keeping businesses open.

FINALLY, you can fairly note that Sweden would be doing EVEN BETTER had their economy not been so closely integrated in trade with other EU countries. BUT THEN that has been the point, the US is not as closely integrated or dependent on trade as Europe or China, which makes the strategy of not locking down even MORE EFFECTIVE.

Clearly we should have pursued a modified version of the Swedish strategy.

So when are you going to cease running to the disreputable and now openly ideological NYT for instructions on your thinking? How many times must anyone be embarrassed by their one-sided analysis?

file:///C:/Users/15106/Downloads/Summer_2020_Tables_EN.pdf.pdf
CBO Releases New Economic Projections | Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget
Daily Update of COVID-19 Costs

The reason you compare Sweden with Denmark and Norway is that they are so similar. That makes them perfect to compare.

Comparing Sweden with the US or Spain or China is a problem because of the differences in everything from healthcare coverage to culture.

Denmark, Norway, and Sweden are cousins and we have formed our societies based on a core cultural heritage. Our healthcare systems are similar, as are our legal systems. Hell we even understand each other language wise.

So for example, Spanish love living out doors and going out to eat. Swedes and Danes do too, but due to weather and financial constraints, we don't do it. This has helped stopping the spread in both countries and promotes the spread in places like Spain and the US.

Another difference. Asian countries are use to masks, but western countries not so much...does that impact comparisons on statistical data? Yes it does. Context matters.

There are many differences that make direct realistic comparisons between nations problematic. However with the Scandinavian countries you have a relatively harmoniously data set...

Sent from my Honor 8X