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"Supreme Court says we get a free ticket to discriminate "

weaver2

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Someone posted this on another forum: ""the Constitution and Supreme Court means we get a free ticket to discriminate against people we don't like (see: Masterpiece Cake shop case).

Do conservative Christians really believe that the phrase "nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof " in the First Amendment of the Constitution and the Supreme Court's decision in the Masterpiece Cake case both mean they have the right to discriminate against gays and other "people we don't like"?
 
I personally would have thought Freedom of association would have given that right. Why should one be forced to do business with someone they do not wish to be associated with? I never understood why someone would want to do business with someone that would discriminate against them in the first place.
 

So you agree the Constitution and the Supreme Court have given businesses the right to discriminate?
 

Sometimes you don't know if they do or not. I get what you mean; I don't give business to places that I feel discriminate.

But I also don't go out of my way to cause scenes in businesses knowing they are opposed to me in some way, shape or form like when I would have jerks come into my store with MAGA caps on and try make outrageous claims and statements to my employees to get a rise out them so they go online and claim they were victims for wearing MAGA caps (too bad for them: my employees were well-versed in proper customer service). Backstory: I didn't realize until a few months after the fact, but the store I worked in was considered friendly to the LGBTQ community which prompted local conservatives to come to my store in efforts to cause problems. It didn't work; my employees were above it.
 

anyone who actually understands the bill of rights, understands it is a limitation on the federal government (and then later on, the state governments). Not individuals
 
weaver2 said:
So you agree the Constitution and the Supreme Court have given businesses the right to discriminate?
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uh wrong question. The constitution is silent on such an issue. The federal government was never given the power to stop that. The bill of rights was a limit on federal power. The post-civil war amendments were designed to prevent state governments from depriving citizens of certain privileges and rights
 
weaver2 said:
So you agree the Constitution and the Supreme Court have given businesses the right to discriminate?
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I don't know about the Supreme Court and how they "interpret" it but it would seem to me that if the constitution says we are to have the freedom of association and the right to private property then the government shouldn't be able to legislate who we must do business with.
 

exactly
 
TurtleDude said:
anyone who actually understands the bill of rights, understands it is a limitation on the federal government (and then later on, the state governments). Not individuals
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And yet women and black people's rights were limited.
 
AProudLefty said:
And yet women and black people's rights were limited.
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by many entities. the constitutional amendments were designed to prevent state governments from doing that.
 

The Constitution says you have the right to freedom of association. But it doesn't say you have the right to exclude people based on their religion. It also gives you the right to own private property. But it doesn't say that if you go into business you have a right to decide who you will and will not sell to.
 


you clearly don't understand the concept of rights and the constitution.
 
TurtleDude said:
you clearly don't understand the concept of rights and the constitution.
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Three sources give the government the power to prohibit private discrimination. The 13th Amendment, the power of the purse, and the Interstate Commerce Act.

The 13th Amendment was used to claim that private discrimination in public places was a continuation of the harms of slavery and was not permitted.

The power of the purse gave the federal government leverage by withholding funding if discrimination existed in the state.

The Interstate Commerce Act considered that public places restaurants, trains, bathrooms and individually owned shops, all had interstate connections and thus the state could sanction the enterprise's discrimination.

The federal government does have the power to limit or eradicate private discrimination. Currently discrimination based on racial, religious, sexual and national origin are banned. Discrimination based on sexual orientation will eventually be banned.
 

Neither the Supreme Courts nor the Constitution bestow upon anyone the right to discriminate. There is no such freedom.
 

the commerce clause expansion is usually cited but we both know that expansion was not based on the intent of the founders, nor the words of the document.
 
weaver2 said:
Neither the Supreme Courts nor the Constitution bestow upon anyone the right to discriminate. There is no such freedom.
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you don't understand the concept. You have the freedom to do anything you want, unless a valid law prevents it. its not the other way around
 
TurtleDude said:
the commerce clause expansion is usually cited but we both know that expansion was not based on the intent of the founders, nor the words of the document.
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The founders intent doesn't matter. What matters is that the Interstate Commerce Act was used and made the anti-discrimination laws stick and we are not going back to Jim Crow laws, persecuting gays, denying Jews club membership, and keeping women out of jobs they have the skills and education to handle.
 

you might be right because conservative justices tend to respect bad precedent. The expansion to cover gays is not a sure bet though
 
TurtleDude said:
you don't understand the concept. You have the freedom to do anything you want, unless a valid law prevents it. its not the other way around
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I understand the concept completely. Yes you can do anything you want. However there are legal consequences if what you do is illegal and discriminatory. And there are laws to back up the consequences. The hypocritical baker is free to refuse gays, but the consequences are that he no longer bakes wedding cakes because the Colorado law still says he can't discriminate against gays.If you had read the decision with any comprehension you would understand.
 

and hopefully that sort of nonsense will be struck down as being beyond legitimate government powers
 
TurtleDude said:
and hopefully that sort of nonsense will be struck down as being beyond legitimate government powers
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So far it hasn't been struck down and the prognosis is not good for the future return of discrimination by sanctimonious. But you still have the freedom to hope that someday you can reinstall bigotry in the marketplace.
 
TurtleDude said:
you might be right because conservative justices tend to respect bad precedent. The expansion to cover gays is not a sure bet though
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Bad precedent? Ending Jim Crow laws is bad precedent? Equal opportunity for women to work, Jews to belong, and gays to be free of persecutions and prosecutions is bad precedent? Equality, fairness, justice, opportunity are bad precedence? How do you figure that?
 
weaver2 said:
So far it hasn't been struck down and the prognosis is not good for the future return of discrimination by sanctimonious. But you still have the freedom to hope that someday you can reinstall bigotry in the marketplace.
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I don't support bigotry but I oppose unconstitutional actions by the government even if that accomplishes something most people think is good. I think you should have the right to sell to whom you want. If you turn down good business transactions, you only hurt yourself.
 
weaver2 said:
Bad precedent? Ending Jim Crow laws is bad precedent? Equal opportunity for women to work, Jews to belong, and gays to be free of persecutions and prosecutions is bad precedent? How do you figure that?
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forcing private businesses to deal with whom they do not want to deal with is too much government power in my view. If you assault or menace or abuse someone, there are already laws that punish such behavior. If a Hasidic Jewish business doesn't want to trade with someone who is a Nazi sympathizer, so be it
 
Do guys have the right to force Christians to perform acts their religious beliefs proscribe? Works both ways.
 
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