Good lord, a few honest questions. Does this wall of text above mean something? What? Because by the end of it, I'm not even sure you are sure who you are speaking to or what about. Particularly when you get into that part about what I'd say and you'd say and whatever else someone would say at the end. So what was that all supposed to mean? That Satanist now don't view prayer as dogmatic and practice meditation instead? That your hypothetical was not hyper fictional and based upon a misunderstanding? That most people probably would not have a problem with the practice alongside traditional prayer at a public meeting? Particularly if they had to attend the meeting or have a reason to be there? That the sound of this silent mediation would be a problem? What about those straight forward questions was it that was so intimidating? So much so that you launched into this, I can only call it a diatribe above?
If a local, county, state, or federal government meeting has been called into business and a prayer is invoked, - That's an infringement on the rights of those who don't want TO HAVE RELIGIOUS PRAYER FORCED ON THEM!
IN A PUBIC GOVERNMENT MEETING - when prayer is forced on people who go for public business and problems to be addressed - and who doesn't want go to a public meeting for a religious ceremony performed. - That's the harm.
What's next? Start having all public agenda meeting used to solve public problems be held in churches as opposed to a government building or town halls?
"Well now!" you say. "If you don't like prayers at public meetings, then don't go to the meeting!'
So then I will have to reply: BUT I HAVE PUBIC BUSINESS TO ADDRESS - NOT RELIGION. So what do I have to do...pray that you'll stop praying at public meetings and whoever prays the hardest and gets their way...wins?
You worship Obama. Where's the difference? :shrug:How embarrassing, adults who are supposed to be in charge bowing their heads to talk to the invisible man.
Sure. Exposure to prayer can cause me seizures. Therefore, I give churches a wide berth.Well, he seems to be suggesting that an individual use their own definition for harm.
"If YOU have been harmed by a prayer, or think you could be, then tell me how."
Basically, he's asking that if you personally think you've been harmed (so however you personally define harm), or think you could be, he would like you to explain how that is.
His definition of harm doesn't really matter much when asking you if YOU think you have or could be harmed...because nothing forces you to use his definition, so there's no reason for you to think you've been harmed or not harmed based on HIS definition.
Basically, he seems to be asking people to do what calamity did....explain whether or not they personally think prayer at a public meeting harms them, and how.
Calamity explained by explaining his apparent definition of harm....IE, an action that runs counter to his particular desire for how the world should be.
Living messiah versus a dead one?You worship Obama. Where's the difference? :shrug:
The decision by SCOTUS to allow prayers at public government meetings is seen by at least SOME politicians as allowing them to promote only one religious belief
Christians are so 'persecuted' in this country.
Add this little bit of bigotry to statements by the Chief Justice of the Alabama State Supreme Court, Roy Moore, and the rational person has to wonder if Margaret Atwood was being prescient when she wrote The Handmaid's Tale or maybe it was Robert Heinlein when he wrote a tale of American theocracy all the way back in 1940 - Revolt in 2100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sure. Exposure to prayer can cause me seizures. Therefore, I give churches a wide berth.
The decision by SCOTUS to allow prayers at public government meetings is seen by at least SOME politicians as allowing them to promote only one religious belief
Christians are so 'persecuted' in this country.
Add this little bit of bigotry to statements by the Chief Justice of the Alabama State Supreme Court, Roy Moore, and the rational person has to wonder if Margaret Atwood was being prescient when she wrote The Handmaid's Tale or maybe it was Robert Heinlein when he wrote a tale of American theocracy all the way back in 1940 - Revolt in 2100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I already knew what your stance was from reading the thread before. I and another poster directly answered you, and you apparently don't like the answers. I have no doubt you would show up at a meeting (assuming you had an actual reason to be there) and proclaim that you were there on business, not religious reasons! And now it looks like as before, you will be told no problem. We will get down to the business of the meeting as soon as it starts. I notice that you and other posters like to make selective use of the language in this matter. You keep referring to religion in the meeting or "at" the meeting. The issue is about what goes on before the meeting. I guess you are free to pretend you will be forced to talk religion and prayer during the meeting. That is not the case. I guess that is what you are going to "cling" to.:roll:Look, your trying to hard to cling to Mr. Hail Satan. It's okay to let that go. That was metaphorical.
My entire point was and is the following:
The city council holding a prayer session is not the same as giving people a space to speak or for that matter bow East and pray. It's a gvt sanctioned prayer. This is where the slippery slope comes in.If someone were to say that about liberal (or conservative for that matter) political speech, would that be a reasonable justification to prohibit it in public?
I already knew what your stance was from reading the thread before. I and another poster directly answered you, and you apparently don't like the answers. I have no doubt you would show up at a meeting (assuming you had an actual reason to be there) and proclaim that you were there on business, not religious reasons! And now it looks like as before, you will be told no problem. We will get down to the business of the meeting as soon as it starts. I notice that you and other posters like to make selective use of the language in this matter. You keep referring to religion in the meeting or "at" the meeting. The issue is about what goes on before the meeting. I guess you are free to pretend you will be forced to talk religion and prayer during the meeting. That is not the case. I guess that is what you are going to "cling" to.:roll:
Slippery slope. I prefer a secular society. Hence, any public prayer in a public meeting harms me. You want to pray, keep it in the church or your own home--hell pray in the ****ing park for all I care, but don't force the whole town to bear your bull****.
They pray out loud.Noone forces anyone to participate. They are doing something with like minded individuals. They arent forcing you to do anything, they aren't forcing their beliefs on you, yet you are sitting here trying to force your will on them. It is very simple. You want to participate, then participate, if not then dont. This hurts noone.
Fantastic.
My stance is:
Wanna pray? Go to church and pray among and with one's religious peers. Wanna pray? Fire away, inside one's mind anytime or anyplace. If prayers don't work when they are done so in silences...then maybe people are praying to the wrong deity. Maybe a deity doesn't want to answer a prayer or think that it fits the big plan.
Have public business that needs to be remedied? Go to a meeting with the agenda to resolve a public problem. Public debate helps resolve issues, not prayer.
In other words, what is the end game by saying a prayer at a public meeting? Fellowship maybe?
Do those who subscribe to minority religions get their form of prayers invoked in a public meeting?
They pray out loud.
Then that forces me to hear it.
What I cling to is simple: If a government meeting has been called into business - NO PRAYER! If people want to assemble prior to the government meeting for pray - GO FOR IT on their own time. Not during a meeting that's is designed to address public business and problems. Is that just too much to ask?
A person can wake up and begin praying and pray till they fall asleep...and then dream about praying. But just don't make me listen to their prayers. That's it. Is that too much to ask?
Maybe maybe maybe. We dont know. They believe it will help. They might be right they might be wrong. In the end it hurts no one. I could see the problem if they forced everyone to pray. But they aren't doing that. They are at most asking those who dont to be respectful for 2 or 3 minutes. There is nothing wrong with that regardless of beliefs.
Again that is your belief. There are a lot of people who believe that prayer helps. In the end it is a matter of beliefs.
I dont think that is the case. I am not a big prayer guy but I have heard them. Generally they are saying something like " lord please give us strength" type of prayers. And saying those words really seems to help a lot of people, makes them stay positive. Others it doesn't. But as I said before it hurts noone, and helps some. It is worth allowing.
If there is a large group of them I am sure it would.
Realistically if you are having a town hall meeting with 100 people. 75 of those people would like to say a short prayer. 20 dont care either way. And 5 people who oppose it just because they hate religion and jump on any opportunity to attack them. What should happen? 95% of people support it in their meeting or dont care, and 5% only care to be assholes.
I dont like to hear people talk about tv shows. Should that not be allowed? Or people signing? Expressing concern about the government? Where are you drawing this line? It seems like you think only the religious voice should be oppressed.
Just pray for all of us who don't want to be exposed to other people's religion or prayers at government meetings or public meetings to deal with public problems. OKAY?
And you see your examples being the same?
It what way are they not? You are saying people shouldn't pray out loud because you don't want to hear it. How is that any different than me not wanting to hear singing?
You're kidding, right?
As I said, just pray for us all who don't want to be at public (government events, meetings) with your prayer being invoked at the beginning of each meeting. Yes. You are one of the people who simple can't grasp "Separation of Church and State".
Thanks, gotta run.
Well the bad news for you is that the Prayer Nazi's are out of luck. In general nobody buys your tortured rationale. You are not really interested in hearing much less thinking about anything BUT your dictate. You blithely sidestep and ignore any attempts to get you to engage outside of your dictate. When I point out the fallacy of your Satanist hypothetical (not surprisingly coming from someone rejecting everything in favor of their own personal opinion) you say that does not matter! Of course in order to explain your opinion, you have to first post erroneous hypotheticals which you will later state really mean noting at all! Yeah that much was obvious. :roll:What I cling to is simple: If a government meeting has been called into business - NO PRAYER! If people want to assemble prior to the government meeting for pray - GO FOR IT on their own time. Not during a meeting that's is designed to address public business and problems. Is that just too much to ask?
A person can wake up and begin praying and pray till they fall asleep...and then dream about praying. But just don't make me listen to their prayers. That's it. Is that too much to ask?
I think I'll do the opposite and I'm not religious. I'll be thankful that narrow minded people engaging in specious arguments predicated in willful ignorance and obstinacy don't make for convincing or persuasive advocates of or opponents of anything.Just pray for all of us who don't want to be exposed to other people's religion or prayers at government meetings or public meetings to deal with public problems. OKAY?
There is that tortured rationale again. Now allowing a prayer before a meeting is somehow the establishment of religion in government! Yes yes, it likely is time for you to run along. It's getting eyeball high in bovine feces up in here. :2wave:You're kidding, right?
As I said, just pray for us all who don't want to be at public (government events, meetings) with your prayer being invoked at the beginning of each meeting. Yes. You are one of the people who simple can't grasp "Separation of Church and State".
Thanks, gotta run.
You speak out loud. That forces those around you to hear it. So should noone be allowed to say something if there is anyone around who doesn't want to hear it?
You are right, it is not. Though a prayer was held before the meeting. :roll:It's a city council meeting. It's intent is to discuss city business. Prayer is not a part of that.
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