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Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

Navy Pride

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Like Yogi Berra once said, "Its not over until its over."

Supreme Court: 'Don't ask, don't tell' OK during appeal - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com


The Supreme Court issued an order Friday afternoon allowing the Obama Administration to continue to enforce the “don’t ask, don’t tell” ban on openly gay military members while the Justice Department appeals a lower court ruling that found the policy is unconstitutional.

Acting without explanation or recorded dissent, the justices rejected an application from the Log Cabin Republicans that would have restored a lower judge’s order prohibiting discharges and investigations under the 1993 law mandating “don’t ask.”



Read more: Supreme Court: 'Don't ask, don't tell' OK during appeal - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com
 

roguenuke

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It's over NP, it's just a matter of when. Right now, everyone is just ironing out the details.
 

Navy Pride

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It's over NP, it's just a matter of when. Right now, everyone is just ironing out the details.

We shall see. the 95% pf the Marine Corps who are against it could win out yet, especially if the Navy and Army figures are anywhere near that.........
 

CriticalThought

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We shall see. the 95% pf the Marine Corps who are against it could win out yet, especially if the Navy and Army figures are anywhere near that.........

You are grasping at straws at this point. Seriously a show of hands at town hall style meetings is not enough to claim that 95% of Marine Corps are against it.

What about the Pentagon survey which showed that most of the armed forces don't care and that a repeal of the policy would likely not hurt our current war efforts?

For somebody who claimed they would be on board for this policy to be repealed if the troops didn't mind, you changed your tune rather quickly.
 
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disneydude

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Whatever happened to the Navy Pride "If the military is ok with it, I'm ok with it"? Singing a different tune now Navy? Why am I surprised? Actually I'm not.
 

disneydude

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For somebody who claimed they would be on board for this policy to be repealed if the troops didn't mind, you changed your tune rather quickly.

What did you expect from the most anti-gay person on this board?
 

CriticalThought

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What did you expect from the most anti-gay person on this board?

I don't think any other poster on this board is still against repealing the policy. NP is the last one and his reasoning for it is pretty damn weak.
 

Navy Pride

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You are grasping at straws at this point. Seriously a show of hands at town hall style meetings is not enough to claim that 95% of Marine Corps are against it.

What about the Pentagon survey which showed that most of the armed forces don't care and that a repeal of the policy would likely not hurt our current war efforts?

For somebody who claimed they would be on board for this policy to be repealed if the troops didn't mind, you changed your tune rather quickly.

I proved the 95% in the Marines and the study for from the other services won't be available until Dec 17........We shall see what it says......It has to really torque your jaws that Hussein Obama your hero who says he is for repeal is fighting repeal with his justice Department......I love it...........
 

Navy Pride

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Whatever happened to the Navy Pride "If the military is ok with it, I'm ok with it"? Singing a different tune now Navy? Why am I surprised? Actually I'm not.


Can you read, you called me a liar when I said that the Commandant of the Marines said that 95% of his marines were against it and I proved you were wrong.....You owe me and apology for that............Not sure how you get away with it either..
 

Eighty Deuce

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This might become one of the more interesting lame-duck Congress issues. As I understand it, a change in this policy can occur one of two ways:
1) The current lawsuit, which I have no idea how long could drag out, with appeals after there's a decision; and/or
2) Congress changes the policy. I would not expect that after the new Congress is sworn in, so if it is going to happen, it'll have to be soon.

I'm not knocking the incoming Republicans in that it is not likely to be an issue they take up. That's just the way politics are on this issue. But it also would make it forefront with the lame duck session, and should the Dems not push it vigorously now, I suspect they will have a very upset constituency.

As I have noted in other threads, my personal opinion is to just get it done. And I am otherwise uber-Conservative ex-military, although like many, with strong Libertarian leanings on social issues. Drugs and sex ... don't hurt anybody and its OK.
 
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Navy Pride

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The Democrats have a real problem with DADT because it is tied to other legislation that no one wants like the "Dream Act." I want to see what happens when the Joint Chiefs say that the troops don't want DADT repealed.........

It really has to be embarrassing for Hussein Obama that he says he is for repeal and His own Justice Department is fighting it........

I will tell you if the liberals are going to get it done they had better do it before the lame duck congress is over because they are history after that........
 
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CriticalThought

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I proved the 95% in the Marines and the study for from the other services won't be available until Dec 17........We shall see what it says......It has to really torque your jaws that Hussein Obama your hero who says he is for repeal is fighting repeal with his justice Department......I love it...........

1. I didn't vote for Obama.
2. The study is due on December 1st.
3. The only thing you proved about your 95% of Marines comment is that the Marine Commander is incredibly ignorant of poll taking and apparently so are you.

Dude, you are clearly anti gay.
 

apdst

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You are grasping at straws at this point. Seriously a show of hands at town hall style meetings is not enough to claim that 95% of Marine Corps are against it.

What about the Pentagon survey which showed that most of the armed forces don't care and that a repeal of the policy would likely not hurt our current war efforts?

For somebody who claimed they would be on board for this policy to be repealed if the troops didn't mind, you changed your tune rather quickly.

Is there any poll, survey, or study that interviewed 100% of the membership of the United States armed forces? The answer to that would be, "no". That being the case, a show of hands at a townhall style meeting has just as much accuracy and credibility as anything else that's been presented, so far.
 

CriticalThought

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Is there any poll, survey, or study that interviewed 100% of the membership of the United States armed forces? The answer to that would be, "no". That being the case, a show of hands at a townhall style meeting has just as much accuracy and credibility as anything else that's been presented, so far.

Um...no. The Pentagon survey included responses from over 100,000 active duty soldiers who were able to respond in private and anonymity without any fear of repercussions. Based on what has been reported, 70% of those surveyed thought that lifting the ban would have no negative effect. The town hall style meetings would have been small, public, in front of commanding officers, and feasibly could have lead to repercussions. There is no comparison between the two. The town hall style meetings are pretty much useless from a measurement perspective in getting honest feedback.
 
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disneydude

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Can you read, you called me a liar when I said that the Commandant of the Marines said that 95% of his marines were against it and I proved you were wrong.....You owe me and apology for that............Not sure how you get away with it either..

If you thought I called you a liar, I apologize for that. However, what I thought I said was that you were pulling figures out of your ass. In either event, I think an argument could be made for either position. Sure the Commandant made the claim, but it seems like he was pulling the figures out of his ass and it is not supported by the findings of the Pentagon study.

Now....as for your changing tune.....Are you still ok with it as long as the military is? or are you going to be singing a different tune?
 

apdst

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Um...no. The Pentagon survey included responses from over 100,000 active duty soldiers who were able to respond in private and anonymity without any fear of repercussions. Based on what has been reported, 70% of those surveyed thought that lifting the ban would have no negative effect. The town hall style meetings would have been small, public, in front of commanding officers, and feasibly could have lead to repercussions. There is no comparison between the two. The town hall style meetings are pretty much useless from a measurement perspective in getting honest feedback.

100,000? That's it? So a survey of only 10% of our armed forces is enough? As you point out, there were no reserve component service members surveyed. If you through in reserve personel, it goes down to just north of 5%.

A survey of 5% of our armed forces is enough to convince you that it's ok? Of course it is, because we already know your partisan stance on the subject, anyway.
 

CriticalThought

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100,000? That's it? So a survey of only 10% of our armed forces is enough? As you point out, there were no reserve component service members surveyed. If you through in reserve personel, it goes down to just north of 5%.

Do you know what a representative sample is? You don't need to survey an entire population in order to know within a few percentage points what the atittudes are. 5% is several times more than what is needed to form a representative sample. Apparantly they don't teach statistics in the armed forces.

Sampling (statistics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

apdst

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Do you know what a representative sample is? You don't need to survey an entire population in order to know within a few percentage points what the atittudes are. 5% is several times more than what is needed to form a representative sample. Apparantly they don't teach statistics in the armed forces.

Sampling (statistics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That's why I put more stock in results, than I do any kind of poll.

Seems you sought refuge with insulting my education. Kinda surprised it took so long, but it was inevitable.
 
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disneydude

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Do you know what a representative sample is? You don't need to survey an entire population in order to know within a few percentage points what the atittudes are. 5% is several times more than what is needed to form a representative sample. Apparantly they don't teach statistics in the armed forces.

Sampling (statistics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

10% is actually a huge number in the world of statistical sampling. You are absolutely right on.
 

Deuce

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I proved the 95% in the Marines and the study for from the other services won't be available until Dec 17........We shall see what it says......It has to really torque your jaws that Hussein Obama your hero who says he is for repeal is fighting repeal with his justice Department......I love it...........

Is there any poll, survey, or study that interviewed 100% of the membership of the United States armed forces? The answer to that would be, "no". That being the case, a show of hands at a townhall style meeting has just as much accuracy and credibility as anything else that's been presented, so far.

These two posts are representative of a much larger issue that plagues this country: a lack of ability in discerning good information from bad.

Take NP's post. He says he "proved" that 95% of the USMC is against gays serving openly. Where did his information come from?

A single officer asking for a "show of hands" in a single town-hall meeting. Why is this a bad method of information gathering?
- Not at all detailed. (single vague question)
- Not at all accurate. (raising hands? I doubt he even counted, just "estimated")
- Tiny sample size (one group of marines)
- Most importantly, utterly severe "peer pressure" influence. I can't stress this enough. You have a commanding officer, whose opinion is already well known, "asking" what the marines think. This is the military. Your opinion is that which your superior assigns to you. Next, this is an organization that does everything it can to stamp out individualism, and it's probably the most macho group of men on the face of this planet. An anonymous survey and a public one would probably yield drastically different results.

You can't compare this to an anonymous, scientificly-minded survey.

Which brings me to apdst. You don't survey 100% of a group, because that's prohibitively time consuming and unnecessary. A good enough sample size is close enough. There have been some leaked, preliminary numbers of what the pentagon has been doing so far, and they indicate a drastically different result. Since those are non-official, preliminary figures they aren't exactly solid, but this 95% number has zero credibility, especially given the fact that among the general population the support for allowing gays to serve openly is nearly 80%. The USMC being that far off of the general population is essentially impossible.
 

CriticalThought

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That's why I put more stock in results, than I do any kind of poll.

Because you don't know squat about statistics?

That is actually a good choice. If you don't know anything about statistics, it is better to discount them entirely because they are easy to manipulate and you will be easily fooled if you don't know what questions to ask.
 
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apdst

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These two posts are representative of a much larger issue that plagues this country: a lack of ability in discerning good information from bad.

Take NP's post. He says he "proved" that 95% of the USMC is against gays serving openly. Where did his information come from?

A single officer asking for a "show of hands" in a single town-hall meeting. Why is this a bad method of information gathering?
- Not at all detailed. (single vague question)
- Not at all accurate. (raising hands? I doubt he even counted, just "estimated")
- Tiny sample size (one group of marines)
- Most importantly, utterly severe "peer pressure" influence. I can't stress this enough. You have a commanding officer, whose opinion is already well known, "asking" what the marines think. This is the military. Your opinion is that which your superior assigns to you. Next, this is an organization that does everything it can to stamp out individualism, and it's probably the most macho group of men on the face of this planet. An anonymous survey and a public one would probably yield drastically different results.

You can't compare this to an anonymous, scientificly-minded survey.

Which brings me to apdst. You don't survey 100% of a group, because that's prohibitively time consuming and unnecessary. A good enough sample size is close enough. There have been some leaked, preliminary numbers of what the pentagon has been doing so far, and they indicate a drastically different result. Since those are non-official, preliminary figures they aren't exactly solid, but this 95% number has zero credibility, especially given the fact that among the general population the support for allowing gays to serve openly is nearly 80%. The USMC being that far off of the general population is essentially impossible.

good information = something I agree with.

bad information = something I don't agree with.

Which brings me to apdst. You don't survey 100% of a group, because that's prohibitively time consuming and unnecessary.

Well, how about in this case, we do poll 100% of our service members and go with the results, no matter what they are? Or, are you afraid of how that might turn out?


A good enough sample size is close enough. There have been some leaked, preliminary numbers of what the pentagon has been doing so far, and they indicate a drastically different result. Since those are non-official, preliminary figures they aren't exactly solid, but this 95% number has zero credibility, especially given the fact that among the general population the support for allowing gays to serve openly is nearly 80%. The USMC being that far off of the general population is essentially impossible.

I bet it wouldn't be good enough, if you didn't like that outcome.

What if that other 95% of our service members are 80% homophobes? Then what? Will it be time to resort to the, "they can follow orders, or get the **** out", argument?
 
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Deuce

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good information = something I agree with.

bad information = something I don't agree with.

Pot, kettle, etc.



Well, how about in this case, we do poll 100% of our service members and go with the results, no matter what they are? Or, are you afraid of how that might turn out?

No, not afraid at all. It honestly doesn't make a difference to me whether or not a majority of troops support it. Majority vote is not my measuring stick for what is right and wrong.


I bet it wouldn't be good enough, if you didn't like that outcome.

What if that other 95% of our service members are 80% homophobes? Then what? Will it be time to resort to the, "they can follow orders, or get the **** out", argument?

How can you be 80% homophobe?

Anyway, "follow orders or get the **** out" is pretty much the core principle on which the military rests, don't you think?
 

apdst

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Pot, kettle, etc.

:rofl





No, not afraid at all. It honestly doesn't make a difference to me whether or not a majority of troops support it. Majority vote is not my measuring stick for what is right and wrong.

I bet it would be a measuring stick for what's right and what's wrong, if an overwhelming majority of that 100% approved of the abolition of DADT.






Anyway, "follow orders or get the **** out" is pretty much the core principle on which the military rests, don't you think?

Actually, it's not, but I don't expect you to know that.
 

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obama has stated time and again his preference for the courts NOT to do this, his doj has argued (sometimes rather grotesquely) against gay rights in the fields of dadt and gay marriage

the disposition of our supreme court appears clear

if obama were to have his druthers, he'd want this thing to move legislatively

well, if you think about it, after january congress is closed to him on this heartfelt topic

that is, he and ms nancy better move FAST

ie, lame duck

you need to know---if you're not feeling sold out by this promiser incompetent, the national leaders of your movement, the pros (who are far more relevant, ie, powerful, than any collection of chatroomers) are furious

obama's a sell out, he plays constituencies

this is just the latest

sorry

stay up
 
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