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Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigration?

Government spying on citizens or travel restrictions from anti-American regions?

  • No travel restrictions simply based on country or origin. Keep surveillance programs in place.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Curtail surveillance programs against Americans and stop hostile region travel instead.

    Votes: 3 100.0%

  • Total voters
    3

Smeagol

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Now France is reported to have illegally spied on its citizens. The arguments are predictable; the measures are needed as security efforts to preemptively combat terrorism. The often unspoken truth is twenty-first century terrorism has one thing in common; its roots originate in the Middle-East, directly or indirectly.

The question arises; which is better? Support government efforts to continue to spy on its own people or enact policies that end or sharply curtail travel into and from the west from countries where strong western sentiment in common? Commensurate with new travel restrictions, the government begins to scale back domestic surveillance on citizens.

If countries where high anti-American sentanent exists want their citizens to be able to come here again they must meet certain benchmarks over time.

- Fair and balanced equal time over media outlets that bash America.
- Defunding of educational institutions that advance anti-American ideologies.
- Pro-American curriculum taught in their classrooms that highlight the good things America has done throughout its history as well as dipicting American life in a positive light.

No one is forced; if they would prefer to not to do so, great, don't come here.

Or is spying on Americans to see what if any contact we have with people from anti-American regions is going on a better idea?
 

jamesrage

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

The government has no business spying on we the people ie their employers. We should scrutinize everyone who comes into this country and be choosey in who we let in.
 

Smeagol

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

The government has no business spying on we the people ie their employers. We should scrutinize everyone who comes into this country and be choosey in who we let in.

I think you rang the bell. Every elected official needs to constantly remind themselves who is the boss and who is the employee.

I get the fact that a big part of their job is protecting the American people so I understand. I do support search warrants but think a better idea is if the problem with homeland security is imported then it only makes sense to focus on the imports themselves and not wait until they get here and focus on Americans to see if they have interaction with the imports.
 

rathi

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

How about a third alternative: grow a ****ing spine and stop acting like a fascist because you are afraid of the terrorist bogeyman. Unconstitutional surveillance should be banned and immigrants should be judged on their own merits as individuals.
 

Gipper

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

More thorough background checks on anyone who travels internationally to the region or any region known for high amounts of terrorism.

If you have family in Riyadh, I have no problem with you getting to the airport 8 hours ahead of your departure time and preparing for a TSA agent to crawl up your ass sideways.
 

ecofarm

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

More thorough background checks on anyone who travels internationally to the region or any region known for high amounts of terrorism.

If you have family in Riyadh, I have no problem with you getting to the airport 8 hours ahead of your departure time and preparing for a TSA agent to crawl up your ass sideways.

When I returned from Kenya, after two years (and including a flight to Ethiopia), my check-in luggage was dumped and inspected by customs.
 

Gipper

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

When I returned from Kenya, after two years, my check-in luggage was dumped and inspected by customs.

Quit smuggling in marathon runners.
 

ecofarm

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Quit smuggling in marathon runners.

I prefer the title "Sports Agent".
 

Dooble

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Is the Left for anything that doesn't affect votes for Democrat candidates?
 

Ikari

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Now France is reported to have illegally spied on its citizens. The arguments are predictable; the measures are needed as security efforts to preemptively combat terrorism. The often unspoken truth is twenty-first century terrorism has one thing in common; its roots originate in the Middle-East, directly or indirectly.

The question arises; which is better? Support government efforts to continue to spy on its own people or enact policies that end or sharply curtail travel into and from the west from countries where strong western sentiment in common? Commensurate with new travel restrictions, the government begins to scale back domestic surveillance on citizens.

If countries where high anti-American sentanent exists want their citizens to be able to come here again they must meet certain benchmarks over time.

- Fair and balanced equal time over media outlets that bash America.
- Defunding of educational institutions that advance anti-American ideologies.
- Pro-American curriculum taught in their classrooms that highlight the good things America has done throughout its history as well as dipicting American life in a positive light.

No one is forced; if they would prefer to not to do so, great, don't come here.

Or is spying on Americans to see what if any contact we have with people from anti-American regions is going on a better idea?

Not sure we really need to do either of those things. Our immigration should be relatively open and the government should certainly not be spying on everyone.
 

Ikari

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

More thorough background checks on anyone who travels internationally to the region or any region known for high amounts of terrorism.

If you have family in Riyadh, I have no problem with you getting to the airport 8 hours ahead of your departure time and preparing for a TSA agent to crawl up your ass sideways.

TSA should be abolished, and you may not infringe so grievously against one's rights and dignity without proof.
 

radcen

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Now France is reported to have illegally spied on its citizens.
I know this isn't the intent of your thread, but seriously... the list of nations that DOESN'T spy on it's own citizens is probably the shorter list. If not literally non-existent.
 

Ikari

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

I know this isn't the intent of your thread, but seriously... the list of nations that DOESN'T spy on it's own citizens is probably the shorter list. If not literally non-existent.

Yes, but if our government isn't on that short list, then our government needs to have some serious problems coming its way.
 

radcen

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Yes, but if our government isn't on that short list, then our government needs to have some serious problems coming its way.
Don't disagree, just making a semi-related observation.
 

Ikari

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Don't disagree, just making a semi-related observation.

Yes, it is true that no government is trustworthy. No governments were meant to be trustworthy. By their very nature, governments are untrustworthy. Control must be exercised. I don't doubt that other nations spy on their citizens, I just don't think it should be used as any excuse that ours does. Other people's governments are their business, not mine. The American government is my business and right now, it's not upholding its end of the bargain. The spying on other nations, quite honestly I can forgive that. I expect other nations to be trying to spy on us too. Governments are not trustworthy. But them spying on us? That's a different ball game and they must be brought to force. The government needs to understand that in this system IT is the servant, not us.
 

Smeagol

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

I know this isn't the intent of your thread, but seriously... the list of nations that DOESN'T spy on it's own citizens is probably the shorter list. If not literally non-existent.

I agree. I guess I'm too idealistic about America and thinking our constitution means something.
 

Surtr

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

No one is forced; if they would prefer to not to do so, great, don't come here.

Or is spying on Americans to see what if any contact we have with people from anti-American regions is going on a better idea?

We should definitely be very mindful of who we allow into this country. Especially those coming from hostile regions. Profile the **** out of people, regardless of whether it's "racist". Sorry, but if a guy comes here from a little Middle Eastern country that eat sleeps and breathes "death to America", odds are he's more likely to cause trouble than some little old English lady from Manchester. We know the enemy, we know what region they come from, we know their general beliefs, we even know what look like, but we do nothing because we wouldn't want to hurt people's feelings. Bureaucracy at it's finest.

The huge surveillance program by the NSA is just a useless waste of resources that has proven itself to be ineffective due to its failure to stop the Boston Bombing, and those guys were red flagged by the FBI. Even the Russians informed us that they were no good, yet a bunch of people still got blown up. Could have been prevented if we actually used basic human reasoning skills and kicked those little ****s back to the Kyrgish crap-hole they crawled out of.
 

Bonzai

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

I think we should monitor all people coming from the Middle East. That being said, most of those migrating are probably the harried remnants of the Christian minority who are the "collateral damage" of the failed American/Israel policy there.....................
 

Gipper

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

TSA should be abolished, and you may not infringe so grievously against one's rights and dignity without proof.

I agree with the TSA being abolished, but I don't think extensive and thorough background checks to be "infringing" on anything.
 

rathi

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

I agree with the TSA being abolished, but I don't think extensive and thorough background checks to be "infringing" on anything.

Are you willing to have the TSA crawl up your ass 8 hours before every flight? Or are you really so blind that you think that it will never be turned on you?
 

Gipper

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Are you willing to have the TSA crawl up your ass 8 hours before every flight? Or are you really so blind that you think that it will never be turned on you?

I'm not in the danger zone.

You forget - I don't object to profiling.
 

Paschendale

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

I'm not in the danger zone.

You forget - I don't object to profiling.

Because you won't be profiled. It's really easy to support discrimination against other people, isn't it?

To the OP, terrorism is such a minor threat to our lives and safety. We spend millions more in time and money fighting terrorists than they do terrorizing us. There is not danger around every corner, nor a scheming Jihaddist on every airplane coming out of Muslim countries. Terrorism is just the next overblown boogeyman, now that the scary commies are out of the picture. Let's stop letting our unfounded fears shape our lives so much. When we do that, that's the terrorists winning. Remember that line? We became less like America and more like them because we were afraid of them. The terrorists won. Why does anyone continue to let that happen?
 

Northern Light

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Surveillance has already increased to levels that are potentially lethal for a democracy. In other words, it's too late. The NSA discovery is just the tip of the iceberg. The private sector is investing billions and billions of dollars in information gathering and monitoring, all with the nod of government. If the government isn't the one directly monitoring us, then the private sector will, and the government will buy the information from them.

People in this country are incredibly naive about the level of tyranny that is already happening. They think that the three branches of government or independent review is going to stop it. It's not. With 25% of Americans on the government tit and realistic unemployment teetering at 15% of more, we should be having people lining the streets, Egypt-style, within the next 2-3 years. The government is already preparing for such an eventuality, but people would rather watch the George Zimmerman case than learn more about the flaws of this economic system and the power grabs / security nightmare that is being created by it.

Realistically, our economy crashed in 2008. Fiat money is the only thing standing between the status quo and widespread dissent. The government is just delaying the inevitable while it implements control plans. When the **** hits the fan, the more people on the government tit, the better. The more dependent you are, the less likely you'll be to dissent. Even in the past 5 years, I have seen more new controls put into place than in the past 15. Wake up people.
 
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Gipper

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

Because you won't be profiled. It's really easy to support discrimination against other people, isn't it?

To the OP, terrorism is such a minor threat to our lives and safety. We spend millions more in time and money fighting terrorists than they do terrorizing us. There is not danger around every corner, nor a scheming Jihaddist on every airplane coming out of Muslim countries. Terrorism is just the next overblown boogeyman, now that the scary commies are out of the picture. Let's stop letting our unfounded fears shape our lives so much. When we do that, that's the terrorists winning. Remember that line? We became less like America and more like them because we were afraid of them. The terrorists won. Why does anyone continue to let that happen?

Tell ya what - when whitey starts flying planes into buildings, I'll clear my schedule on international flight day.
 

rathi

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Re: Support government surveillance on citizens or sharply curtail Mid-East immigrati

I'm not in the danger zone.

You forget - I don't object to profiling.

The only reason you don't object to profiling is because you don't think it will ever target you. Have you already forgotten the pre-9/11 world? McVeigh as the terrorist du jour and it was those "anti government whackjobs" who the government was going after as the threat to America. Anti-government people like Libertarians would clearly be a risk and would need to be profiled for the security of the nation.
 
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