• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Stopping abortion the correct way

vegas giants said:
Person is a legal definition....not a biological one
Click to expand...
That's right and there is a concerted effort by the religious leaders of the anti-abortion movement to equate that legal definition, person, with their use of the term "conception is the beginning of life" thus conferring personhood on the fetus.
 
weaver2 said:
That's right and there is a concerted effort by the religious leaders of the anti-abortion movement to equate that legal definition, person, with their use of the term "conception is the beginning of life" thus conferring personhood on the fetus.
Click to expand...
Never happen
 
prometeus said:
No it is not. The significance of that life is the issue.
Click to expand...

For those who admit life starts at conception. For those who aren’t there yet, the argument is still about when a new life begins.
 
vegas giants said:
Never happen
Click to expand...
It's is happening now.
The “personhood” movement is active in each of the 50 states (some more so than others), usually operating through an organization called Personhood USA. The Personhood USA website defines the movement as follows: “Personhood is a movement working to respect the God-given right to life by recognizing all human beings as persons who are ‘created in the image of God’ from the beginning of their biological development, without exceptions. ............ personhood proponents continue to introduce these bills as part of the broader anti-choice strategy toward their goal of banning all abortions and monitoring the lives of pregnant people.
rewirenewsgroup.com

Legislative Tracker

Legislative Tracker has been discontinued.
rewirenewsgroup.com rewirenewsgroup.com
The link gives all the personhood bills in all the 50 states.
 
Josie said:
For those who admit life starts at conception. For those who aren’t there yet, the argument is still about when a new life begins.
Click to expand...
The argument is about personhood conveying legal rights to eggs, zygotes, embryos and fetuses and taking them away from women. Do not kid yourself about this topic. As Paul Weyrich said:
"When political power is achieved, the moral majority (the religious right) will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation. We are talking about Christianizing America. We are talking about the Gospel in a political context."

Women have been Christianized for 2000 years. For 2000 years we were chattel. What do you think the Christian Right in the US means by "The Gospel in a political context" and "Christianizing the US"

 
Patriotic Voter said:
It begins with comprehensive sex education in both public and private schools, with no parental opt-outs or religious exemptions allowed. Every girl in America must learn it before her first period. Every boy must learn it before his first ejaculation. One period, one ejaculation, one rape: that is all it takes for a 10-year old girl to get pregnant, drop out of school, lose friends, and suffer both physically and psychologically the rest of her life. This can happen to any fertile girl or woman who did not get a complete sex education.
Click to expand...
It can also happen to those fully educated.
 
weaver2 said:
The argument is about personhood conveying legal rights to eggs, zygotes, embryos and fetuses and taking them away from women. Do not kid yourself about this topic. As Paul Weyrich said:
"When political power is achieved, the moral majority (the religious right) will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation. We are talking about Christianizing America. We are talking about the Gospel in a political context."

Women have been Christianized for 2000 years. For 2000 years we were chattel. What do you think the Christian Right in the US means by "The Gospel in a political context" and "Christianizing the US"
Click to expand...

That’s the legal argument, not the biological one.
 
choiceone said:
Try my new thread When Does Personhood Begin? I offer a link to a transcript of a talk by a developmental biologist who considers various points at which different scientists in different specializations place their views of when a human being "begins."
Click to expand...

I am sure you know I am not talking about personhood. I am just talking about when LIFE begins.
 
Patriotic Voter said:
I am sure you know I am not talking about personhood. I am just talking about when LIFE begins.
Click to expand...
When life begins (eons ago) or when a new life begins (with conception)? If you read "When does personhood begin" you would know that there are at least 7different embryological stages when different specialists say a life begins. Why can't we accept the US legal designation of birth being the beginning of a life. What is your concern with needing to decide the exact point at which a life begins? What will change when your definition of the beginning of a life is defined?
 
weaver2 said:
When life begins (eons ago) or when a new life begins (with conception)? If you read "When does personhood begin" you would know that there are at least 7different embryological stages when different specialists say a life begins. Why can't we accept the US legal designation of birth being the beginning of a life. What is your concern with needing to decide the exact point at which a life begins? What will change when your definition of the beginning of a life is defined?
Click to expand...
Yes. Each biological specialization selects the point relevant to their specialization: geneticist, fertilization; embryologist, gastrulation; brain specialist, human-specific EEG, etc. They are all predictably concerned with their own identity.
 
Josie said:
That’s the legal argument, not the biological one.
Click to expand...
The biological one doesnt matter when it comes to making decisions about legal matters. It can inform with objective facts but not provide the subjective foundation of value, abuse, violation of rights, morality, etc.
 
weaver2 said:
When life begins (eons ago) or when a new life begins (with conception)? If you read "When does personhood begin" you would know that there are at least 7different embryological stages when different specialists say a life begins. Why can't we accept the US legal designation of birth being the beginning of a life. What is your concern with needing to decide the exact point at which a life begins? What will change when your definition of the beginning of a life is defined?
Click to expand...

A new life begins at conception. Everyone who took a biology class knows this about all animals that originate from a sperm fertilizing an ovum. That would be everyone at least 13 years old if every school district was like mine when I was in seventh grade.
 
Patriotic Voter said:
A new life begins at conception.
Click to expand...
Yes. A (one) new life begins at conception. In general that is true.
Patriotic Voter said:
Everyone who took a biology class knows this about all animals that originate from a sperm fertilizing an ovum. That would be everyone at least 13 years old if every school district was like mine when I was in seventh grade.
Click to expand...
Hopefully.
 
Patriotic Voter said:
So why are you arguing life begins at birth, not just personhood?
Click to expand...
When we are discussing pregnancy, abortion, life, personhood etc and you say, "A new life begins at conception", I agree with you. When you go on to say, "So, you believe life begins at conception", I disagree with you. There is a very, very big difference between "A life begins at conception" and "Life begins at conception" That big red "A" makes a world of difference.
 
weaver2 said:
When life begins (eons ago) or when a new life begins (with conception)? If you read "When does personhood begin" you would know that there are at least 7different embryological stages when different specialists say a life begins. Why can't we accept the US legal designation of birth being the beginning of a life. What is your concern with needing to decide the exact point at which a life begins? What will change when your definition of the beginning of a life is defined?
Click to expand...

Literally no one is talking about when all human life began millions of years ago. I don’t know why you keep saying it.

The question has always been when a NEW life has begun. You say that’s at conception and I agree.
 
Josie said:
Literally no one is talking about when all human life began millions of years ago. I don’t know why you keep saying it.
Click to expand...
Because you keep saying, "Life begins at conception." and it doesn't. " A life begins at conception"
Josie said:
The question has always been when a NEW life has begun. You say that’s at conception and I agree.
Click to expand...
Good! A life, a new life, one single, new life begins at conception. A life, not a person, not a human being, not a baby, not humanity, not personhood

The phrase "life begins at conception" is being used by the leaders of the anti-abortion movement in connection with the uniqueness of the zygote's DNA to prove a zygote is a unique person. Gilbert, in his speech "When does personhood happen", says, "DNA has become essence. ....... The culture of America believes that DNA is our essence. ...... (our) soul." When the zygote, embryo or fetus has a soul, it can be called a person then those that want to ban abortion can call abortion the murder of a person.
 
weaver2 said:
Because you keep saying, "Life begins at conception." and it doesn't. " A life begins at conception"
Click to expand...

It's the same thing, weaver. Only you -- of all of the thousands of people I've debate abortion with -- has taken that the way you have. It's weird.
weaver2 said:
Good! A life, a new life, one single, new life begins at conception. A life, not a person, not a human being, not a baby, not humanity, not personhood

The phrase "life begins at conception" is being used by the leaders of the anti-abortion movement in connection with the uniqueness of the zygote's DNA to prove a zygote is a unique person. Gilbert, in his speech "When does personhood happen", says, "DNA has become essence. ....... The culture of America believes that DNA is our essence. ...... (our) soul." When the zygote, embryo or fetus has a soul, it can be called a person then those that want to ban abortion can call abortion the murder of a person.
Click to expand...
 
tacomancer said:

A wonderful article about a lady who appears to have prevented a few thousand abortions (if I am interpreting the article right).

Her secret? Helping the mothers afford rent, food, and diapers. If people truly want abortions to decrease, then they need to focus on helping those mothers provide for a life for the children they otherwise feel they cannot have.

Otherwise, it’s just wasted effort and punishing women.
Click to expand...
I would add that promoting quality sex Ed. And availability of contraception prevents exponentially more abortions than protesting abortion clinics and voting for only pro life candidates does.
 
Patriotic Voter said:
A new life begins at conception. Everyone who took a biology class knows this about all animals that originate from a sperm fertilizing an ovum. That would be everyone at least 13 years old if every school district was like mine when I was in seventh grade.
Click to expand...
I have taken undergraduate biological anthropology and a graduate seminar in the anthropology of women that included a significant section on the biology of pregnancy, and I have read a fair number of peer-reviewed journal articles on biology in genetics, embryology, and bioethics.

I don't even remember what seventh grade science or freshman high school biology were even like.

I have never thought "a new life" begins at conception for either mammals in general or humans in particular. I think the concept is ridiculous.

Will you argue that twins have the same new life? They develop afterward. Will you argue that they are "different" or what? In rabbits, a pregnant rabbit in a situation of scarcity will resorb the fetus into her own body: it just disappears, no death. That's just a start . . . .
 
Josie said:
It's the same thing, weaver. Only you -- of all of the thousands of people I've debate abortion with -- has taken that the way you have. It's weird.
Click to expand...
I think at least two other posters have insisted on using the phrase "a life" rather then "life".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom