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Stop abortions by killing others? (1 Viewer)

That was fairly self explanatory. Pro-Life terrorists are just that, terrorists. Same goes for Animal rights terrorists, digging up old ladies bones doesn't make you a hero, just an idiot. Of course, fighting a war on terror is about foreign lands and men with strange unpronouncable names, not the lunatic Christian right or the Lunatic Hippy left at home.
 
JamesRichards said:
That was fairly self explanatory. Pro-Life terrorists are just that, terrorists. Same goes for Animal rights terrorists, digging up old ladies bones doesn't make you a hero, just an idiot. Of course, fighting a war on terror is about foreign lands and men with strange unpronouncable names, not the lunatic Christian right or the Lunatic Hippy left at home.

I am anti abortion and pro life and I think that any person that kills and abortion doctor or blows up and abortion clinic should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and every pro life person I know feels the same way........
 
Navy Pride said:
I am anti abortion and pro life and I think that any person that kills and abortion doctor or blows up and abortion clinic should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and every pro life person I know feels the same way........
Good for you, unfortunately a small minority of those within the US population have chosen to use violence to try and subject others to their own interpretations of freedom beneath the guise of a certain religious 'morality'. These individuals are conducting exactly the same activities as any terrorist group, they deserve to be treated as befitting their actions. Glad to know your not of that particular persuasion NP.
 
Doc Lodic PhD said:

Stopping thousands of abortions by blowing up a abortion clinic,seems logical to me.

I see no difference between a abortionist and a rat nazi.As far as I am concenred they are both the same.Anyone who would dehumanize a innocent human in order to justify killing them deserves death.These abortionist and abortion doctors are no different than Nazis who dehumanized jews,polish and other people in order to justify killing them.
 
aquapub said:
It was the answer for John Brown when he was fighting slavery. People then viewed him the same way people view abortion clinic bombers now...but history regards Brown as a visionary hero.


Hopefully in the Future the abortionist are reviled and seen for the baby killing scum that they are.
 
Well, it is fairly contradictory. The most prominent types of individuals who irrationally oppose abortion are thoes 'religious' types who are indefatigable in their adherance to that "sanctity of life" concept.

If life is sacred--that is, human life--, it is irrational to take a life to save a life. Furthermore, though, it's irrational when the life saved is of vastly lesser value than the life taken. It's not nearly as serious an offense to kill a fetus as it is to kill an actual adult. One has more to lose and is of higher moral worth.
 
The-Technocrat said:
Well, it is fairly contradictory. The most prominent types of individuals who irrationally oppose abortion are thoes 'religious' types who are indefatigable in their adherance to that "sanctity of life" concept.

If life is sacred--that is, human life--, it is irrational to take a life to save a life. Furthermore, though, it's irrational when the life saved is of vastly lesser value than the life taken. It's not nearly as serious an offense to kill a fetus as it is to kill an actual adult. One has more to lose and is of higher moral worth.

I blow your theory all to hell because I am not that religious and I think abortion is the most barbaric crime one individual can perpetrate on another..............
 
I blow your theory all to hell because I am not that religious and I think abortion is the most barbaric crime one individual can perpetrate on another.........

You don't blow anything out of the water, because it's a sociological trend. I also did not make a universal qualifier, so I would appreciate if you read a bit more carefully, since I didn't lump everyone together. Notice I didn't say all. A few exception types to the rule don't invalidate the statement of trend. The most vocal and irrational types are predominantely religious.

Observe as I emphasis my own words. I said: The most prominent types of individuals who irrationally oppose abortion are those 'religious' types[/B]

That's a true statement. The most prominent types who irrationally oppose, that is. I don't know what you think, and my comment doesn't apply to your kind. I probably disagree, but YOU might have a rational reason. Most often, the herd doesn't. I rather don't think it's barbaric, but I can already guess we come from vastly different ethical starting points. I don't know what kind of ethics you support yet, since it's too early to tell.
 
The-Technocrat said:
Well, it is fairly contradictory. The most prominent types of individuals who irrationally oppose abortion are thoes 'religious' types who are indefatigable in their adherance to that "sanctity of life" concept.

If life is sacred--that is, human life--, it is irrational to take a life to save a life. Furthermore, though, it's irrational when the life saved is of vastly lesser value than the life taken.


It is completely rational to take one life in order to save thousands.The death of a abortion doctor could save the lives of thousands.

It's not nearly as serious an offense to kill a fetus as it is to kill an actual adult. One has more to lose and is of higher moral worth.

Rat nazis dehumanized innocent human beings in order to justify killing them,abortionist are no different.
 
It is completely rational to take one life in order to save thousands.The death of a abortion doctor could save the lives of thousands.


Part A: Let's see if I get this right and understand your argument. I don't wan to misrepresent you.

1. From the above, you state it's ok to kill the abortion doctor because he will kill more fetuses later. The quantity of lives saved outweighs the death of his life. Essentially, this argument is Utilitarian in nature, but its hidden premises also stem from the "Doctrine of the Sanctity of Human Life."

For the sake of argument, I will assume your definition of personhood and premises, but let's simplify it. Since the argument is based on Utility, all that matters is the net gain. As long as more fetuses are saved than people killed to save them, and if that's the only way to do it, it is moral. However, let's reduce the number. Instead of saving thousands by killing one, you still save more, but it's drastically reduced--you save 2 for every 1. I do this because if killing 1 doctor will save 50 fetuses, it also will give net reward to kill 1 doctor for +1 utils. Let's move on from there.

If the above is true, then you believe a fetus is of equal value to an adult human instrinsically--that is, you equate the life of the fetus and the life of the adult. If you didn't, it wouldn't make sense to kill the adult to save +1 fetuses. I am assuming it is due to the fact that it is biologically human (DNA confirms it) and has potential for a future life value. However, when following from "Sanctity Theory" plus the above, it would follow that you also believe that an embryo is of equal value and shouldn't be killed because it is:

A: Human
B. Possessing a form of potential for personhood.

Again, if the above assumptions are true, you are equating non-sentient, and more importantly, non-sapient life, with that of sentient and sapient life. Regardless, they are equally valuable because they are technically human with a future potential. Since your argument exudes utilitarian reasoning, the following thought experiment is an obvious no-brainer for you. If a fetus is equal to an adult because of X, and an fertalized embryo also has X, then an embryo is equal to an adult in value as well as the fetus. Let's apply that to a thought experiment.


B: As a thought experiment, since the argument for a fetus and an embryo are not much different (lets assume it's a fertilized embryo in a jar), you would feel it appropriate to save the life of 120 fertilized embryos over 1 fourteen year old boy if you had to make the decision. If you didn't, 120 humans and future subjects of a life will die. Similarly, if you don't kill the abortion doctor, 2+ fetuses will die. Following from your premises, you must do this based on the requirements of utliity (which you assumed in your post) as well as your interesting equation of adults and fetus (sentient and non-sentient/sapient life). It would only follow that to kill a doctor to save a non-sapient/sentient organism is moral if you actually equate the two. You cannot equate sapient and non-sentient (or even non-sapient) life. The former is of vastly lesser value.

Very intersting indeed.



PS: Needless to say, I don't equate fertalized embryo's and fetues to adult humans. The latter are of vastly more value, so I don't consider killing a doctor to save the life of non-sapient biomass as a morally balanced equation when all relevant preferences and utils are considered. A fetus and an embryo are in a totally different category of moral worth, since they are not subjects of a life, do not possess rational attributes, and are not sapient in any form. This doesn't mean, however, that I feel they are without any moral value.









Rat nazis dehumanized innocent human beings in order to justify killing them,abortionist are no different.

Godwin's Law already? Pity. Anyway, the comparison of abortion to nazi killings is a fun one, but a false analogy nonetheless, since the two are so totally unrelated. Foremost, the targets of the Nazis were people who were subjects of a life, did not want to die, or had people who didn't want them to die. They had preferences for continued life and in possession of personhood. Quite often, the Nazis killed sapient, sentient organisms. Abortion on the former doesn't. Ever. Sometimes on the latter.

equating abortion to the nazi holocaust is like what those PETA crazies do when they equate eating chickens to the Nazi holocaust. It's ineffective and only serves to degrade the actual horrors of teh holocaust. You should know better than to make pithy, emotional argumentum ad hitlerums.
 
aquapub said:
It was the answer for John Brown when he was fighting slavery. People then viewed him the same way people view abortion clinic bombers now...but history regards Brown as a visionary hero.

Not really. John Brown was a terrorist, just like people who bomb abortion clinics.
 
jamesrage said:
Stopping thousands of abortions by blowing up a abortion clinic,seems logical to me.

I see no difference between a abortionist and a rat nazi.As far as I am concenred they are both the same.Anyone who would dehumanize a innocent human in order to justify killing them deserves death.These abortionist and abortion doctors are no different than Nazis who dehumanized jews,polish and other people in order to justify killing them.

What about innocent people who might be killed in the explosion? Collateral damage?
How very "pro-life" of you. :roll:
 
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Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's wrong to kill persons to save a greater number of persons given that's the only way to do it. This is predicated upon the idea that the people being saved/killed are of roughly equivalent value.

And yes, as the above person said, abortion clinic bombers are still terrorists, as John Brown was. Although at least John Brown's motivation was to kill to save people of equivalent moral worth, even if it were unjustified ultimately due to other factors.


People also put too much emphasis on whether or not the fetus is "innocent." That's all very emotionally laden terminology that allows you to murder doctors with families to save biomass you feel looks cute.
 
The-Technocrat said:
You don't blow anything out of the water, because it's a sociological trend. I also did not make a universal qualifier, so I would appreciate if you read a bit more carefully, since I didn't lump everyone together. Notice I didn't say all. A few exception types to the rule don't invalidate the statement of trend. The most vocal and irrational types are predominantely religious.

Observe as I emphasis my own words. I said: The most prominent types of individuals who irrationally oppose abortion are those 'religious' types[/B]

That's a true statement. The most prominent types who irrationally oppose, that is. I don't know what you think, and my comment doesn't apply to your kind. I probably disagree, but YOU might have a rational reason. Most often, the herd doesn't. I rather don't think it's barbaric, but I can already guess we come from vastly different ethical starting points. I don't know what kind of ethics you support yet, since it's too early to tell.

Well I know a lot of Conservatives who are not religeous but when it comes to abortion believe exactly as I do.........I even have a friend who is and atheist who believes abortion is murder in the womb..................

There are religious people who believe as you say but there are a hell of a lot more that believe science has proven that life begins at conception and to kill a baby in the womb is murder and it has nothing to do with religion.......
 
There are religious people who believe as you say but there are a hell of a lot more that believe science has proven that life begins at conception and to kill a baby in the womb is murder and it has nothing to do with religion.......

One problem is that I don't know too many people who argue "life" itself doesnt begin at conception, but that also depends on what you mean by "life." That it begins doesn't mean one human entity exists then. It's "life" in the basest biological sense. Life is not the most important moral aspect--the fact that something is alive is not of paramount importance in whether or not it is wrong/right or "wrong or right in degrees" to kill it.

Not untill some time after conception actually takes place do you even know if the entity will be one or more entities. It can become that later. In the early stages, if you have embryo Jim, and that embryo later forms more zygotes, forming jane and bob, what happens to embryo Jim? Does it "die" as an entity? I doubt it. It never existed. The biomass--the tissue tiself---existed. That's not the same as a human being. Physically, the tissue IS scientifically a member of homo sapien sapien, but tissue, again, is not the measure of morality; there is more to what it means to be human that simply
"being" and taking up space as biomass. What exists in the womb at that time on conception is unsentient biomass. That's relatively low on the ethical totem poll. That's not all terribly that important, unless you have instrumental use for it. The rights and preferences of sentient life override non-sentient life instrinsically; we do that all the time. Other than emotional attatchment, there's no objective, concrete logical reason for this arbitrary decision.

Refer to the above scenario. A fetus is not worth an adult like an embryo is not worth an adult. Neither are sentient and sapient. It would be absurd to equate them, for if you do, you get the above unacceptable scenario drawn from those premises.

Science cannot "prove" morality either. Science can only give facts that can be used in the context of moral theory,but some like to read into it more than they should--in this case, murder being "proved" because life begins then. That's really a non-sequitor. It doens't follow. Science cannot "prove" it is murder, since "murder" is an ethical and legalistic concept, and whether or not it is "wrong" is up to ethical theory, which not all agree. Science isn't normative; Ethical theory does that.
 
The-Technocrat said:
Part A: Let's see if I get this right and understand your argument. I don't wan to misrepresent you.

1. From the above, you state it's ok to kill the abortion doctor because he will kill more fetuses later. The quantity of lives saved outweighs the death of his life. Essentially, this argument is Utilitarian in nature, but its hidden premises also stem from the "Doctrine of the Sanctity of Human Life."

For the sake of argument, I will assume your definition of personhood and premises, but let's simplify it. Since the argument is based on Utility, all that matters is the net gain. As long as more fetuses are saved than people killed to save them, and if that's the only way to do it, it is moral. However, let's reduce the number. Instead of saving thousands by killing one, you still save more, but it's drastically reduced--you save 2 for every 1. I do this because if killing 1 doctor will save 50 fetuses, it also will give net reward to kill 1 doctor for +1 utils. Let's move on from there.

If the above is true, then you believe a fetus is of equal value to an adult human instrinsically--that is, you equate the life of the fetus and the life of the adult. If you didn't, it wouldn't make sense to kill the adult to save +1 fetuses. I am assuming it is due to the fact that it is biologically human (DNA confirms it) and has potential for a future life value. However, when following from "Sanctity Theory" plus the above, it would follow that you also believe that an embryo is of equal value and shouldn't be killed because it is:

A: Human
B. Possessing a form of potential for personhood.

Again, if the above assumptions are true, you are equating non-sentient, and more importantly, non-sapient life, with that of sentient and sapient life. Regardless, they are equally valuable because they are technically human with a future potential. Since your argument exudes utilitarian reasoning, the following thought experiment is an obvious no-brainer for you. If a fetus is equal to an adult because of X, and an fertalized embryo also has X, then an embryo is equal to an adult in value as well as the fetus. Let's apply that to a thought experiment.


B: As a thought experiment, since the argument for a fetus and an embryo are not much different (lets assume it's a fertilized embryo in a jar), you would feel it appropriate to save the life of 120 fertilized embryos over 1 fourteen year old boy if you had to make the decision. If you didn't, 120 humans and future subjects of a life will die. Similarly, if you don't kill the abortion doctor, 2+ fetuses will die. Following from your premises, you must do this based on the requirements of utliity (which you assumed in your post) as well as your interesting equation of adults and fetus (sentient and non-sentient/sapient life). It would only follow that to kill a doctor to save a non-sapient/sentient organism is moral if you actually equate the two. You cannot equate sapient and non-sentient (or even non-sapient) life. The former is of vastly lesser value.

Very intersting indeed.



PS: Needless to say, I don't equate fertalized embryo's and fetues to adult humans. The latter are of vastly more value, so I don't consider killing a doctor to save the life of non-sapient biomass as a morally balanced equation when all relevant preferences and utils are considered. A fetus and an embryo are in a totally different category of moral worth, since they are not subjects of a life, do not possess rational attributes, and are not sapient in any form. This doesn't mean, however, that I feel they are without any moral value.











Godwin's Law already? Pity. Anyway, the comparison of abortion to nazi killings is a fun one, but a false analogy nonetheless, since the two are so totally unrelated. Foremost, the targets of the Nazis were people who were subjects of a life, did not want to die, or had people who didn't want them to die. They had preferences for continued life and in possession of personhood. Quite often, the Nazis killed sapient, sentient organisms. Abortion on the former doesn't. Ever. Sometimes on the latter.

equating abortion to the nazi holocaust is like what those PETA crazies do when they equate eating chickens to the Nazi holocaust. It's ineffective and only serves to degrade the actual horrors of teh holocaust. You should know better than to make pithy, emotional argumentum ad hitlerums.

Have you ever heard a woman who just found out she is pregnant say, Hey I am going to have a fetus or I am goinf to have and embryo?
 
The-Technocrat said:
Part A: Let's see if I get this right and understand your argument. I don't wan to misrepresent you.

1. From the above, you state it's ok to kill the abortion doctor because he will kill more fetuses later. The quantity of lives saved outweighs the death of his life. Essentially, this argument is Utilitarian in nature, but its hidden premises also stem from the "Doctrine of the Sanctity of Human Life."






Godwin's Law already? Pity. Anyway, the comparison of abortion to nazi killings is a fun one, but a false analogy nonetheless, since the two are so totally unrelated.

Nazis and abortionist are the same in the sense they both justify killing innocent humans by dehumanizing them.Abortionist equate a unborn child to nothing more than a toe nail in order to justify killing that child.

equating abortion to the nazi holocaust is like what those PETA crazies do when they equate eating chickens to the Nazi holocaust.
There you abortionist go dehumanizing a innocent human human in order to justify killing them
 
Navy Pride said:
Have you ever heard a woman who just found out she is pregnant say, Hey I am going to have a fetus or I am goinf to have and embryo?

What is the point of this Red Herring?

Baby is a collquial terminology for an organism at that stage. However, the woman and doctor will usually agree on the phraseology: I am GOING to have a baby. Going-to or will are the operant terms. They signifies the future. Yes, in the future, the Embryo and then fetus will become a baby and both will become a person. That doesn't mean they are. If I know I am the only one running in a neighborhood for mayor, and I will run, I know I am going to win the race." I haven't won it yet, therefore I don't get the status yet, even though I will win it eventually[/B]. There is no logical rule that permits all A's that will be B's must have all status of B now. A baby is just an all-encompassing generality anyway.

That doesn't change the consequences of the sanctity-theory in philosophy and equating fetuses to adults. A fetus is not of the same moral worth as an adult human. It would be absurd to claim that. No rational individual would rather save the life of a non-sentient biomass over a thinking, rational, self-aware human. That would actually be UNETHICAL, but it would follow logically from Sanctity-of-human-life theory if you equate fetuses and adults.


I am almost not "dehumanizing" anything as the other guy says. A fetus IS human. I don't have to dehumanize it to say it's ok to kill it. That can follow from ethical premises that require no dehumanization. Anyone who says it's not human is lying. Of course it is.
 
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jamesrage said:
Nazis and abortionist are the same in the sense they both justify killing innocent humans by dehumanizing them.Abortionist equate a unborn child to nothing more than a toe nail in order to justify killing that child.


There you abortionist go dehumanizing a innocent human human in order to justify killing them


Your argument isn't logical. Come back to me when the emotional jargon dies down. Refer to my above post and take the scenario into consideration. Your position is ment to sound good, but it doesn't have the firm logical footing you think it does.

Your use of nazi-abortionist juxtapostion is an emotional fallacy related to Ad Hominem. You don't actually defend your beliefs outside of piling on more emotional rhetoric.

The rest of your post uses emotional, but loaded terminology like "innocent" and "human" like that makes a defense of your actions.

You also strawman the arguments of your opponents by suggesting that the "nebulous" abortionist equates a fetus to a toenail. No, they don't. Either you are deliberately being dishonest, or you really don't understand the concept of "personhood" and what a fetus or an embryo are. Perhaps you are stuck at the first stage of Moral Reasoning in Koehlberg's stages theory. I don't know for sure. The lack of advanced ethical reasoning and black/white emtional terminology makes that seem credible.
 
The-Technocrat said:
Your argument isn't logical. Come back to me when the emotional jargon dies down. Refer to my above post and take the scenario into consideration. Your position is ment to sound good, but it doesn't have the firm logical footing you think it does.

Your use of nazi-abortionist juxtapostion is an emotional fallacy related to Ad Hominem. You don't actually defend your beliefs outside of piling on more emotional rhetoric.

The rest of your post uses emotional, but loaded terminology like "innocent" and "human" like that makes a defense of your actions.

You also strawman the arguments of your opponents by suggesting that the "nebulous" abortionist equates a fetus to a toenail. No, they don't. Either you are deliberately being dishonest, or you really don't understand the concept of "personhood" and what a fetus or an embryo are. Perhaps you are stuck at the first stage of Moral Reasoning in Koehlberg's stages theory. I don't know for sure. The lack of advanced ethical reasoning and black/white emtional terminology makes that seem credible.


You are an abortionist there is no reasoning with you.All your rat nazi abortionist talking points is just bull ****.All the fancy jargon will not change that fact.
 
jamesrage said:
You are an abortionist there is no reasoning with you.All your rat nazi abortionist talking points is just bull ****.All the fancy jargon will not change that fact.

I see logic isn't your forte, so let's try this again. Go back to the edit function, erase all your nonsense, and then come back to me when you have a logical argument and a cogent rebuttle. Not before son.


If you're going to talk on a debate forum, you should learn the principles of logic and argumentation. The above doesn't constitute any rational rebuttal to my argument. Your arguments are nothing but anadulturated emotion run wild. I know it's hard for you, since you are irrational, but think before you post. It makes the debate much better.
 
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The-Technocrat said:
I see logic isn't your forte, so let's try this again. Go back to the edit function, erase all your nonsense, and then come back to me when you have a logical argument and a cogent rebuttle. Not before son.


If you're going to talk on a debate forum, you should learn the principles of logic and argumentation. The above doesn't constitute any rational rebuttal to my argument. Your arguments are nothing but anadulturated emotion run wild.

I learned a long time ago that it is pointless to argue with a rat abortion nazi.
Logic coming from a rat abortion nazi is not logic no matter how it is spewed.
I know it's hard for you, since you are irrational, but think before you post. It makes the debate much better.

People who justify killing innocent babies before they are even born have no room to call anyone irrational.
 
jamesrage said:
I learned a long time ago that it is pointless to argue with a rat abortion nazi.
Logic coming from a rat abortion nazi is not logic no matter how it is spewed.


People who justify killing innocent babies before they are even born have no room to call anyone irrational.


I'm sorry. I thought you were intelligent enough for logical debate. Pity I was wrong. Your concession is accepted.
 

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