• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

State to Eliminate “Bride” & “Groom” on Marriage Certificates [W:303]

ChrisL

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
47,571
Reaction score
16,958
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
I don't know :thinking. This whole 'issue' is like the 'freedom fries' thing in my opinion. Why waste the time and effort?
I don't really care, but at the marriage ceremony I wonder if they are going to say "person A, do you take person B to be your lawfully wedded person B?" :2razz:
 

winston53660

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
29,262
Reaction score
10,125
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I want mine to say "X" and "Y"!
 

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
119,042
Reaction score
34,648
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I don't really care, but at the marriage ceremony I wonder if they are going to say "person A, do you take person B to be your lawfully wedded person B?" :2razz:
They better, or we'll have them arrested!
 

ChrisL

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
47,571
Reaction score
16,958
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
People do realize this has nothing to do with the ceremony, right?
That was a joke, but I still wonder why they can't both be wives or husbands. Why the person A/person B (or whatever it is)?
 

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
45,596
Reaction score
22,537
Location
Everywhere and nowhere
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
You don't think their resistance to change in this case has to do with them seeing the tradition that they have always known, slipping away?
I think it has something to do with them imagining that, but not them seeing that.
 

Sherman123

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
7,774
Reaction score
3,790
Location
Northeast US
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
How could the old terms be accommodated? There is no clear equivalent to husband, wife, bride or groom in most gay couples.
Wait, really? My god-father was married in California after being with his partner for many years, and at their ceremony and in social situations they refer to each other as husband. I've observed, but never thought it remarkable, the same in many, many, other examples. Is this not the norm in your view? My point would be let the words stay but make them interchangeable like Husband-Husband or Groom-Groom. Or if people want their own designation you could opt for that too I suppose. But I don't see the need to just abolish the titles on the certificates altogether, it means a lot to many straight and gay couples and it seems to be an example of political correctness run amok unless I'm missing something big here.
 

AGENT J

"I'm kind of a big deal"
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
60,503
Reaction score
17,401
Location
Pittsburgh
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
1.)That's what forums are for...posting your opinions are they not?

2.)They had some of the same goals and some different ones, gaining rights for same sex couples... I posted links supporting this, it's history, it's a part of the sexual revolution, it was listed on a glbt history website. There's not much more to say on this, I've done the research since I was lucky enough to not be around during the 1970's, I get to read about it (no offense to those of you that were). Either way the information is there. Did you look at those sources I posted?
1.) yes just making sure you understand what you are posting because it definitely seemed like you thought you were posting a fact or something meaningful and logical. It was an opinion and nothing more.

2.) see the bolded stuff above? EXACTLY they were different movements very obviously distinguishable cause they had different goals. The KKK shares some goals with Christianity does that mean they are indistinguishable of course not.

you sources provide ZERO logic or fact to make them indistinguishable like i already said.

SOrry there just no logical or factual reason to have think the movements were the same movement and "indistinguishable"

by all means though again, when you have anything logical or factual to support your claim by all mean please provide.
 

AGENT J

"I'm kind of a big deal"
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
60,503
Reaction score
17,401
Location
Pittsburgh
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
We're talking about the US and traditional marriage in the US. Gay marriage is new here, hence the resistance to change.
hence there is NO change for those people that share your opinion of what traditional marriage is, thats just a fact.
 

Monserrat

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
1,497
Reaction score
488
Location
US
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
1.) yes just making sure you understand what you are posting because it definitely seemed like you thought you were posting a fact or something meaningful and logical. It was an opinion and nothing more.

2.) see the bolded stuff above? EXACTLY they were different movements very obviously distinguishable cause they had different goals. The KKK shares some goals with Christianity does that mean they are indistinguishable of course not.

you sources provide ZERO logic or fact to make them indistinguishable like i already said.

SOrry there just no logical or factual reason to have think the movements were the same movement and "indistinguishable"

by all means though again, when you have anything logical or factual to support your claim by all mean please provide.
Everything I said about the sexual revolution is factual and I provided the sources to back it up. It's all history, so again did you even look at the sources?
 

Monserrat

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
1,497
Reaction score
488
Location
US
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
hence there is NO change for those people that share your opinion of what traditional marriage is, thats just a fact.
Do you disagree that changing of traditional marriage in the US is a change and that people can be very resistant to change? Because that's all that I was saying.
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
This is the kind of stuff that predicated the fall of the Roman empire. Watch for the legalization of having sex with children next.
Read a damned history book. The Romans were the most immoral during the height of Empire, and declined most steadily after Constantine converted to Christianity and took most of the Empire with him.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,699
Reaction score
5,703
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Read a damned history book. The Romans were the most immoral during the height of Empire, and declined most steadily after Constantine converted to Christianity and took most of the Empire with him.
There are numerous reasons the Roman Empire fell, I am concentrating on lack of morality because it is pertinent to this thread.

"Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire - Decline in Morals
One of the main causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire was the Decline in Morals. The decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes, nobility and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forced a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre or at the games dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena."


Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire
 

joko104

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
62,098
Reaction score
21,885
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Why can't they be bride/bride or groom/groom? I don't understand why the terminology has to change when they could just be allowed to choose the combination of their choice.
They could just have the couple each circle which word they each want to apply. Or just have more than one form to fill out.
 

joko104

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
62,098
Reaction score
21,885
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
There are numerous reasons the Roman Empire fell, I am concentrating on lack of morality because it is pertinent to this thread.

"Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire - Decline in Morals
One of the main causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire was the Decline in Morals. The decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes, nobility and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forced a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre or at the games dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena."


Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire
LOL. You pick out one of many the article gives as reason, no qualifications for the blog whatsoever, nor does that statement given any rational reason why that caused "the fall." None. Just another opportunity for you to attack gays and promiscous people, which seems your purpose on the forum.

Your article also says:
Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire - Christianity
One of the main causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire was Christianity. Life and the future seemed hopeless for the millions of people who were ruled by Rome where an early death was almost inevitable. Christianity taught the belief in an afterlife which gave hope and courage to the desperate. Eventually the Roman Emperor, Constantine the Great, proclaimed himself a Christian and issued an edict promising the Christians his favor and protection. Attitudes in the Roman Empire changed from being antagonistic to becoming pacifistic.

So blame Christians for the fall of the Empire.
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
There are numerous reasons the Roman Empire fell, I am concentrating on lack of morality because it is pertinent to this thread.

"Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire - Decline in Morals
One of the main causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire was the Decline in Morals. The decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes, nobility and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forced a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre or at the games dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena."


Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire
First of all, I would heavily suggest you look for better sources than a .info page. If you're interested in Roman history, I would suggest starting with Livy's On Rome. That should carry you up to the reign of Augustus. From there, Zosimus is a pretty solid source, and Ammianus Marcellinus is very heavy source of information. If you want a more digestible, modern source I can suggest you to a dozen sources that are more reliable than a .info site.

Now first of all, not all history sources are equal. Imagine if you got your history from the National Enquirer. Some of the things you're mentioning are about that reliable. But let's say that at least some of those debaucheries happened, and some certainly did. Under Emperors like Tiberius and Nero, the borders of Rome expanded. In fact, Rome reached its greatest extent under Trajan, who was well in that debased period you mention. Now I'm linking to a map of Rome during the Tetrarchy, shortly before the Constantine converted to Christianity and did away with the excessive sin. After Constantine and Christianity, the Western Empire fell within about 150 years. The Eastern Empire took a number of centuries, but it slowly withered into nothingness. Can you really blame the "decline in morals" when Rome was at its most powerful? Remember, it declined under Christians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Tetrarchy_map3.jpg/300px-Tetrarchy_map3.jpg
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,699
Reaction score
5,703
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
First of all, I would heavily suggest you look for better sources than a .info page. If you're interested in Roman history, I would suggest starting with Livy's On Rome. That should carry you up to the reign of Augustus. From there, Zosimus is a pretty solid source, and Ammianus Marcellinus is very heavy source of information. If you want a more digestible, modern source I can suggest you to a dozen sources that are more reliable than a .info site.

Now first of all, not all history sources are equal. Imagine if you got your history from the National Enquirer. Some of the things you're mentioning are about that reliable. But let's say that at least some of those debaucheries happened, and some certainly did. Under Emperors like Tiberius and Nero, the borders of Rome expanded. In fact, Rome reached its greatest extent under Trajan, who was well in that debased period you mention. Now I'm linking to a map of Rome during the Tetrarchy, shortly before the Constantine converted to Christianity and did away with the excessive sin. After Constantine and Christianity, the Western Empire fell within about 150 years. The Eastern Empire took a number of centuries, but it slowly withered into nothingness. Can you really blame the "decline in morals" when Rome was at its most powerful? Remember, it declined under Christians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Tetrarchy_map3.jpg/300px-Tetrarchy_map3.jpg
As i stated earlier in this thread I have read quite a few books on Rome and see similarities to their demise and what is going on in America today. The site and quote from it I posted sum up Romes morality issues pretty well for this venue. If you disagree that morality or should I say lack thereof had anything to do with the fall of Rome that is fine but it is one of the many theories out there. Rome fell for a myriad of reasons and IMO their decedent culture was one of them. A society where deviant behavior becomes the norm is doomed and I see us heading in that direction.
 

Medusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
39,861
Reaction score
7,845
Location
Turkey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
i support gay rights and i like them . but i find this change a little strange . I dont have to be called spouse a or b . I have the right to be wife of a man if i marry him :lol:
 

Binky

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
595
Reaction score
457
Location
In the land that is now.
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
I have to admit that things like this sadden me. Its not that I object to "progress", its just that there is no need for something like this.

The "old" terms could still have been accomodated, this sort of thing is just inflamatory really.
Well, as with anything else, there has obviously been some whining and bitching going on and it's resulted in generic marriage and divorce certificates. Wouldn't surprise me if one day, we'll see wierdos fighting for their right to marry their dog or cow. I hope I'm long dead by that time.
 

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
7,102
Reaction score
1,504
Location
Sacramento, CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
As i stated earlier in this thread I have read quite a few books on Rome and see similarities to their demise and what is going on in America today. The site and quote from it I posted sum up Romes morality issues pretty well for this venue. If you disagree that morality or should I say lack thereof had anything to do with the fall of Rome that is fine but it is one of the many theories out there. Rome fell for a myriad of reasons and IMO their decedent culture was one of them. A society where deviant behavior becomes the norm is doomed and I see us heading in that direction.
My point was though, how could decadence have been responsible for their fall if they weren't sinful and decadent when they fell? Remember, all of the sinful stuff had stopped by the time they entered decline.
 

AGENT J

"I'm kind of a big deal"
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
60,503
Reaction score
17,401
Location
Pittsburgh
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Do you disagree that changing of traditional marriage in the US is a change and that people can be very resistant to change? Because that's all that I was saying.
yes i do disagree because thats not what is happening, its not changing
 

AGENT J

"I'm kind of a big deal"
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
60,503
Reaction score
17,401
Location
Pittsburgh
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Everything I said about the sexual revolution is factual and I provided the sources to back it up. It's all history, so again did you even look at the sources?
now you are flat out lying

no it is not all factual you said it was "indistinguishable" not only is that not factual its laughable.

by all means though again, when you have anything logical or factual to support your claim by all mean please provide.

Yes i saw your sources they do NOTHING to make your statement factual or logical, nothing.
 
Top Bottom