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State Mandated Racial Purity????

jmh423

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I wonder how many people in the world are aware that the Israeli government will not issue a marriage licence for inter-faith marriages in 2010? In addition, strict guidelines have been enacted for proof of "Jewishness". This sounds like something right out of the Jim Crow US South in the first part of the 20th century or Germany in the '30s. Is this another way of trying to create a "Master Race" and strictly regulate breeding habits of it's citizens? If not, then why are these policies in effect, and why are they tolerated by the citizens of this so called democracy?

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here

"After being told she needed to prove the Jewishness of her maternal lineage for four generations, Hillary Rubin is questioning her decision to move to Israel."


By Raphael Ahren .....


Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Read on as this is truly shocking...
 

CJ 2.0

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I wonder how many people in the world are aware that the Israeli government will not issue a marriage licence for inter-faith marriages in 2010? In addition, strict guidelines have been enacted for proof of "Jewishness". This sounds like something right out of the Jim Crow US South in the first part of the 20th century or Germany in the '30s. Is this another way of trying to create a "Master Race" and strictly regulate breeding habits of it's citizens? If not, then why are these policies in effect, and why are they tolerated by the citizens of this so called democracy?

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here

"After being told she needed to prove the Jewishness of her maternal lineage for four generations, Hillary Rubin is questioning her decision to move to Israel."


By Raphael Ahren .....


Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Read on as this is truly shocking...

In spite of the fact that this is clearly here for demagogic purposes, this is a major issue in Israel. The state was set up relegating this aspect of public law to private (religious) institutions, which at the time were fairly moderate but have become less so. There is no mechanism for civil (state) marriages in Israel, only religious ones. This is why the Cyprus marriage industry has been so big for such a long time, because Jews that are not interested in a (very) religious statndard cannot find someone with the authority to create their marriage in Israel. For a time this approach worked, but this sort of dysfunction is not even remotely good for civil society or sustainable.

So, in spite of the anti-Israel demagoguery, which I think can be safely ignored, I would like to think that momentum is building to address this sisue, though powerful interests will continue to stand in the way of any progress on this front.

The special rights provided to religious institutions (other than the various churches to maintain their affairs) was the single biggest mistake made in setting up the modern state, with ramifications far beyond anything anticipated by those making the decisions back in the day.
 

jmh423

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In spite of the fact that this is clearly here for demagogic purposes, this is a major issue in Israel. The state was set up relegating this aspect of public law to private (religious) institutions, which at the time were fairly moderate but have become less so. There is no mechanism for civil (state) marriages in Israel, only religious ones. This is why the Cyprus marriage industry has been so big for such a long time, because Jews that are not interested in a (very) religious statndard cannot find someone with the authority to create their marriage in Israel. For a time this approach worked, but this sort of dysfunction is not even remotely good for civil society or sustainable.



So, in spite of the anti-Israel demagoguery, which I think can be safely ignored, I would like to think that momentum is building to address this sisue, though powerful interests will continue to stand in the way of any progress on this front.

The special rights provided to religious institutions (other than the various churches to maintain their affairs) was the single biggest mistake made in setting up the modern state, with ramifications far beyond anything anticipated by those making the decisions back in the day.

This situation along with several others are a HUGE problem with the Israeli government or any other governments steeped in radical religious dogma and fairytales. The original founders of this ill advised experiment were also steeped in radical dogma but at that time it was more of a radical political sect occupied by bigots and supremicists rather than religious whackos. General George Marshall and many other serious political advisors of the era warned against supporting these radicals in their quest for a religious/racist based state in Palistine. The logical location for a Jewish homeland after WWII would have been Hitler's hometown of Vienna and some surrounding land in Austria. At that time, the whole of eastern europe was being politically disected already. That would have been poetic justice.

That said, in the wake of this disastorous experiment, if Israel/Palistine ever is to become a viable productive part of the world community instead of a pariah and powderkeg, several things must transpire.

1) All of the walls and checkpoints must be taken down, and the right of return must be granted to all Palistinian people who have been displaced. EVERYONE gets to use the same roads...

2)A real election involving ALL of the citizens of Israel/Palistine must be conducted so that the citizens of the region will be ruled by their own referendum instead of half the citizens being occupied and terrorized at gunpoint. As we can clearly see this has been a bloody disaster and will continue to be as long as it lasts.

3)The Palistinians who were displaced and mistreated should be well compensated therby making them economically viable.

4)Religious zealots and whack jobs, whether Jewish, Muslim, or Christian should not be involved in the government unless they can keep their radical beliefs out of the governmental arena.

5) The Six Pionted star flag should be replaced by one that represents all of the citizens of the country. Perhaps one that encorporates symbols from all three major religions of the citizens....

That is the beginning of a rational one state solution for the people of the region. There will NEVER be a two state solution. If this doesn't transpire the idiocy will continue and the blood will keep on flowing until the whole region explodes in war. With the Iran situation looming, that might not be too far off....
 

Laila

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That is amazing.
I wouldn't want to move to Israel either if I was her.
"Prove her Jewishness"!?
How does that work if her family's documents were destroyed in Germany?
 

Laila

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They could always go to Jordan..... oh wait.... :ssst:

I didn't realise Jordan claimed to be a democratic western nation ... oh wait, that may be because it is not.
 

mac

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90% of the countries in the middle east take a very similar approach to marriage. Why are their policies not an issue but Israel's are?
 

Laila

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90% of the countries in the middle east take a very similar approach to marriage. Why are their policies not an issue but Israel's are?

See above post.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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Israel is fundamentally a religious state, founded with the intention of being a religious state. Judaism is integral to Israeli national identity and the State of Israel is entirely justified in acting to uphold that national identity. If the standards of the State are too strict and are interfering too much in the lives of Israeli Jews, that is their problem to solve; there is no legitimate interest to justify anyone else's involvement.
 

alexa

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Israel is fundamentally a religious state, founded with the intention of being a religious state. Judaism is integral to Israeli national identity and the State of Israel is entirely justified in acting to uphold that national identity. If the standards of the State are too strict and are interfering too much in the lives of Israeli Jews, that is their problem to solve; there is no legitimate interest to justify anyone else's involvement.

I don't think you are right there Korimyr.

Much of the fiercest opposition to Zionism came from the Jewish religious community which attacked its secular nationalism. Akiva Orr, who characterizes himself as a Jewish refugee from Israel, describes this conflict between religion and secularism as follows:

The State of Israel is a secular state: its law, its legislative assembly (the Knesset), and the majority of its population are non-religious. This is hardly surprising as Israel came into existence due to the efforts of a secular political movement motivated by non-religious nationalism, namely political Zionism. In its early days Zionism came into fierce conflict with religious Jewry. The Zionists rejected religious submissiveness; the religious saw the atheist attempt to create a secular Jewish state as blasphemy.19

A nonreligious Jewish identity is antithetical to a religious definition of Jewishness. This fact presents an irreconcilable contradiction between the religious and secular streams in the Jewish community. Theodore Herzl, David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir and many other leading Zionists were non-believers who actively sought to reformulate the basis for Jewish existence on race and territorial nationalism.20 This process would thereby "normalize" the existence of the Jewish people.21 The anti-religious component of political Zionism explains the vehement opposition of most devout Jews when the movement first emerged.

Jewish Religious Opposition To Zionism

also with connection to the problem experienced by the woman here -

If I am correct in my reading when a person converts to Judaism for instance, that person is immediately a Jew and I understand there are laws in Judaism against any discrimination against that person, including mentioning that they have only just joined.

Now it may be that 'religious zionism', not to be confused with Judaism in general is different or it may be that Israel is asking for line simply on the basis of race. I understand that before WW2 if a person gave up Judaism, they stopped being a Jew and slipped into the general population - or certainly before Zionist started which was as I understand originally a secular movement and before WW2 supported by few Jews.
 
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jmh423

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Israel is fundamentally a religious state, founded with the intention of being a religious state. Judaism is integral to Israeli national identity and the State of Israel is entirely justified in acting to uphold that national identity. If the standards of the State are too strict and are interfering too much in the lives of Israeli Jews, that is their problem to solve; there is no legitimate interest to justify anyone else's involvement.

US tax dollars should not be meted out to countries with bigoted religious zealots in positions of power and influence, whether they be Muslim, Christian or Jewish. The same midevil religious bigotry displayed in this silliness of denying marriage certificates is also used as a tool to get ignorant followers to engage in unethical, abusive and downright criminal treatment of the native people of this region. This racist idiocy steeped in religious dogma becomes problematic to anyone who crosses their path.

I disagree with your assertion that we as US citizens have no legitimate interest here. There is every legitimate interest for all US citizens Jew and Gentile alike to be apprised of exactly what type of regime their money, weapons and political cover are being given to.

This passage from Professor Israel Shahak's book, Jewish History, Jewish Religion:
The Weight of Three Thousand Years, clearly points out the outrageous and backward bigotry and war crimes practiced by many of these zealots and supported by the state Israel.

The Laws against Non-Jews - Israel Shahak

[COLOR="blue[SIZE="3"]"]"Since even the minimal interdiction against murdering a Gentile outright applies only to 'Gentiles with whom we [the Jews] are not at war', various rabbinical commentators in the past drew the logical conclusion that in wartime all Gentiles belonging to a hostile population may, or even should be killed.6 Since 1973 this doctrine is being publicly propagated for the guidance of religious Israeli soldiers. The first such official exhortation was included in a booklet published by the Central Region Command of the Israeli Army, whose area includes the West Bank. In this booklet the Command's Chief Chaplain writes":

"When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed ... Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized ... In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good.[/SIZE]"[/COLOR]
 

Korimyr the Rat

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US tax dollars should not be meted out to countries with bigoted religious zealots in positions of power and influence, whether they be Muslim, Christian or Jewish. The same midevil religious bigotry displayed in this silliness of denying marriage certificates is also used as a tool to get ignorant followers to engage in unethical, abusive and downright criminal treatment of the native people of this region. This racist idiocy steeped in religious dogma becomes problematic to anyone who crosses their path.

I disagree with your characterization of Israel, or even this aspect of Israeli law, as bigoted or zealous. Every nation has the right to determine its own membership and to prohibit its own members from marrying outsiders. We should not expect other societies to follow our own liberal policies in this regard; we are a mongrel nation, proudly so, and our acceptance and assimilation of the aliens in our midst is a distinct feature of our own unique culture. As for their treatment of the Palestinians, they are at war; their behavior is no worse than our own in our handling of the native peoples of our region.

I disagree with your assertion that we as US citizens have no legitimate interest here. There is every legitimate interest for all US citizens Jew and Gentile alike to be apprised of exactly what type of regime their money, weapons and political cover are being given to.

And we do know what kind of regime Israel is. I'm perfectly comfortable with our association. This issue has no bearing on the affairs of our nation and does not affect the citizens of our nation; why are you concerned with it?
 

ido_

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I wonder how many people in the world are aware that the Israeli government will not issue a marriage licence for inter-faith marriages in 2010? In addition, strict guidelines have been enacted for proof of "Jewishness". This sounds like something right out of the Jim Crow US South in the first part of the 20th century or Germany in the '30s. Is this another way of trying to create a "Master Race" and strictly regulate breeding habits of it's citizens? If not, then why are these policies in effect, and why are they tolerated by the citizens of this so called democracy?

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here

"After being told she needed to prove the Jewishness of her maternal lineage for four generations, Hillary Rubin is questioning her decision to move to Israel."


By Raphael Ahren .....


Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Read on as this is truly shocking...

Marrige in Israel has nothing to do with racial issues, its a religious issue. It actually bothers most citizens of Israel but no goverment ever had the balls to institute civil marrige in Israel because of the religious Knesset parties, the only option for a Jew to get married in a non religious ceramony is to get married abroad and then the marrige gets aproved in Israel, sort of a bypass.
You can understand why an orthodox rabby will not marry a Jew with a non Jew - its just like you have to be orthodox christian in order to get married in an orthodox church, and in Israel Jews can only get married in a religious orthodox ceramony.
 

alexa

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Marrige in Israel has nothing to do with racial issues, its a religious issue. It actually bothers most citizens of Israel but no goverment ever had the balls to institute civil marrige in Israel because of the religious Knesset parties, the only option for a Jew to get married in a non religious ceramony is to get married abroad and then the marrige gets aproved in Israel, sort of a bypass.
You can understand why an orthodox rabby will not marry a Jew with a non Jew - its just like you have to be orthodox christian in order to get married in an orthodox church, and in Israel Jews can only get married in a religious orthodox ceramony.

Although ido, is not the problem here proving she is a Jew - back four generations.
 

ido_

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Although ido, is not the problem here proving she is a Jew - back four generations.

You are confusing Jewish nationality with Jewish religion, by the Jewish religion, a Jew is a person who is mother is a Jew.
By the laws of the state of Israel the Jewish nationality is defined as you said, if a person have a Jew in his family 3 generations back (doesn't matter even if its a Grandfather from the fathers side), I'm not familiar with the case but I'm sure the rabbinate is giving them a hard time because they always do. You do not have to go this far to find injustice in this system, I as a Jew won't be able to marry in any way either than the religious orthodox Jewish ceramony of the rabbinate even if my wife to be is a Jew. If I was a priest (last name Cohen, Levi etc.) I could not marry a divorcee woman because the Jewish law forbids it...

And believe it or not, your "favorite" party in the Knesset - Liberman's party that is trying to promote legistlation of civil marrige in Israel
 
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Laila

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You do not have to go this far to find injustice in this system, I as a Jew won't be able to marry in any way either than the religious orthodox Jewish ceramony of the rabbinate even if my wife to be is a Jew. If I was a priest (last name Cohen, Levi etc.) I could not marry a divorcee woman because the Jewish law forbids it...

And believe it or not, your "favorite" party in the Knesset - Liberman's party that is trying to promote legistlation of civil marrige in Israel

But that is so unfair, how can the public stand for no form of civil/secular option?
How is it the religious get to keep so much power and influence in Israel?
 

alexa

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You are confusing Jewish nationality with Jewish religion, by the Jewish religion, a Jew is a person who is mother is a Jew.
By the laws of the state of Israel the Jewish nationality is defined as you said, if a person have a Jew in his family 3 generations back (doesn't matter even if its a Grandfather from the fathers side), I'm not familiar with the case but I'm sure the rabbinate is giving them a hard time because they always do. You do not have to go this far to find injustice in this system, I as a Jew won't be able to marry in any way either than the religious orthodox Jewish ceramony of the rabbinate even if my wife to be is a Jew. If I was a priest (last name Cohen, Levi etc.) I could not marry a divorcee woman because the Jewish law forbids it...

And believe it or not, your "favorite" party in the Knesset - Liberman's party that is trying to promote legistlation of civil marrige in Israel

I was just going by the article. It is possible it is not accurate. It says that in order to marry she is asked to provide proof that for 4 generations her mother's side of the family has been Jewish.

Here however is her grandfather's uncle
In 1906 Sokolow was asked to become the secretary general of the World Zionist Congress. In the ensuing years, he crisscrossed Europe and North America to promote the Zionist cause. During World War I, he lived in London, where he was a leading advocate for the Balfour Declaration of 1917, in which the British government declared its support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. In 1931 he was elected President of the World Zionist Congress, and served in that capacity until 1935, when he was succeeded by Chaim Weizmann. He also served as President of the Jewish Agency for Palestine between 1931 and 1933 and was succeeded by Arthur Ruppin.

Nahum Sokolow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She says she cannot provide these documents because they were holocaust victims.

However it does seem that what is concerning her most is that she will be called a non Jew. Her Mother for instance remarried a Roman Catholic after getting divorced from her first husband, presumably Jewish....so all in all it appears it is Nationality she is concerned about

The rabbinical court does not actually declare somebody a non-Jew without proof of their belonging to another religion, but Rubin would still run the risk of being left in the situation of not being officially Jewish by the state's standards should she turn to them.

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

P.S None of the current political parties appeal to me and I have a strong belief that for social cohesion and equality all citizens of a country should have the same Nationality - that is Nationality and Citizenship for all citizens should be Israel - but that is for the future.
 

CJ 2.0

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This situation along with several others are a HUGE problem with the Israeli government or any other governments steeped in radical religious dogma and fairytales. The original founders of this ill advised experiment were also steeped in radical dogma but at that time it was more of a radical political sect occupied by bigots and supremicists rather than religious whackos.

yes, yes. Radical supremacists. Who came to the conclusion that, as much as assimilation would great, societies in Europe would never accept Jews as equals.

Considering what unfolded over the next 40 years or so, we can't even say that they missed the mark on that front, either.

That said, in the wake of this disastorous experiment, if Israel/Palistine ever is to become a viable productive part of the world community instead of a pariah and powderkeg, several things must transpire.

A few things. First, obviously Israel is intensely productive. I will leave it to other posters (I one in mind in particular) with encyclopedic references to the global advances developed by Israelis. Second, "Palestine" as an entity was NEVER productive. It was more productive as a Roman province (but even then not really), and has been a stagnant backwater for centuries

the rest of your post is just silly (sorry), so I'm not going to get into it. Clearly, your hostility to a nation-state based around a distinct group of people (which incidentally exist by the hundreds throughout the world) does not extend to Jews, cause you just don't like them. I get it, but that's not really a substantive point for discussion.
 

ido_

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I was just going by the article. It is possible it is not accurate. It says that in order to marry she is asked to provide proof that for 4 generations her mother's side of the family has been Jewish.

Here however is her grandfather's uncle

Nahum Sokolow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She says she cannot provide these documents because they were holocaust victims.

However it does seem that what is concerning her most is that she will be called a non Jew. Her Mother for instance remarried a Roman Catholic after getting divorced from her first husband, presumably Jewish....so all in all it appears it is Nationality she is concerned about

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

P.S None of the current political parties appeal to me and I have a strong belief that for social cohesion and equality all citizens of a country should have the same Nationality - that is Nationality and Citizenship for all citizens should be Israel - but that is for the future.

I have no idea which evidance the rabbinite asks a person to provide in order to confirm a person is a Jew, it could be that she needs to provide 4 generations but pay attention that she has to provide 4 generations of Jewish mothers from her mother's side in order to be recognized by the rabbinite as Jew, her Grandfather and her Grandfather's uncle will not help her there, its enough that you have one non-jewish woman in the chain to lose your Jewishness by the Jewish religion.

I don't really care about their idea of "who is a Jew" as I do not see my Jewishness as a religion, but as a nationality and since the Israeli law is very clear about this and every Jew that is of Jewish nationality by the Israeli law is entitled to Israeli citizenship I don't care that the religious rabbinites will not accept their Jewishnes. Yes, marrige is a problem, not only in this case, in many cases that the Jewish law doesn't allow 2 people to get married but there are ways to overcome this (either by conversion to Judaisem or by getting married abroad) and hopefully one day we will have the right to get married in a civil ceramony.
 

ido_

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But that is so unfair, how can the public stand for no form of civil/secular option?
How is it the religious get to keep so much power and influence in Israel?

Most of the Jews doesn't have those problems, the problems are rare. Many who do not want to get married in a riligious ceramony will just go to the rabbinite and do the minimal requirement to be recognized as a married couple in a minimal ceramony in the rabbinite and then have their own celebration with family in the way they would like (for example a reform jewish wedding). Others will just sail\fly to Cyprus, get married and have their honeymoon there. It is a big deal for secular Jews who are the majority in Israel but I guess its not a big problem that will cause people to go out and demonstrate.
Same goes for public transportation on Saturday, many people who don't own a car are grounded on Saturday just because the status quo with the religious parties says there will be no public transportation on Saturday.
 

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90% of the countries in the middle east take a very similar approach to marriage. Why are their policies not an issue but Israel's are?

Actually Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women under the Qur'an, just not vice versa. However, I would say either way it is a bigger issue if a developed country considered to be a democracy is implementing such policies as opposed to a third world totalitarian state.
 

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I have no idea which evidance the rabbinite asks a person to provide in order to confirm a person is a Jew, it could be that she needs to provide 4 generations but pay attention that she has to provide 4 generations of Jewish mothers from her mother's side in order to be recognized by the rabbinite as Jew, her Grandfather and her Grandfather's uncle will not help her there, its enough that you have one non-jewish woman in the chain to lose your Jewishness by the Jewish religion.

I don't really care about their idea of "who is a Jew" as I do not see my Jewishness as a religion, but as a nationality and since the Israeli law is very clear about this and every Jew that is of Jewish nationality by the Israeli law is entitled to Israeli citizenship I don't care that the religious rabbinites will not accept their Jewishnes. Yes, marrige is a problem, not only in this case, in many cases that the Jewish law doesn't allow 2 people to get married but there are ways to overcome this (either by conversion to Judaisem or by getting married abroad) and hopefully one day we will have the right to get married in a civil ceramony.

If you have no interest in my opinions then please have the curtesy not to suggest you know what they are as you did in your previous reply to me and in fact do not reply to me.

This woman clearly believes she is not racially a Jew by the classification of the Israeli State. You agree . Enjoy.
 
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Tashah

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Actually Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women under the Qur'an, just not vice versa. However, I would say either way it is a bigger issue if a developed country considered to be a democracy is implementing such policies as opposed to a third world totalitarian state.
The way marriage works in Israel (via religion) is not something that is suddenly being implemented. It has always been that way. But there are various ways around a religious marriage so it is viewed by most as more of a technicality than an impossible roadblock.

Many traditional social/religious customs take time to evolve. The traditional prohibition on gay marriage in the US is one current exemplar.
 

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If you have no interest in my opinions then please have the curtesy not to suggest you know what they are as you did in your previous reply to me and in fact do not reply to me.

This woman clearly believes she is not racially a Jew by the classification of the Israeli State. You agree . Enjoy.

Alexa you are so fed up with hate to everything that is Israeli that you don't even bother to understand what you are reading.
Where have I said I don't have an interest in your opinions, and where did I imply I know what they are?
 

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Alexa you are so fed up with hate to everything that is Israeli that you don't even bother to understand what you are reading.
Where have I said I don't have an interest in your opinions, and where did I imply I know what they are?

There you go again claiming I have hate for Israel. Irritated at you yes. You are flaming now. You claimed to know what party I liked most or least in Israel. When I responded you said you had no interest, changing my word from Nationality to Jews. You are flaming ido. I am done with you. Take your projected hate and do with it what you wish.

Edit: I should perhaps have some compassion for you. After all you are deluded by Peres into thinking people of the UK think antisemitism is hating the Jews more than necessary. Andalublue managed to find out that this was a saying by a 1920 Hungarian Nobleman .....but as far as Peres believes it is all the people of the UK and now you follow from him.
 
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