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Stanley Milgram experiment (1 Viewer)

jimmyjack

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What are people’s opinions on the Stanley Milgram experiment?

And how do you reconcile this opinion in relation to abortion?
 
jimmyjack said:
What are people’s opinions on the Stanley Milgram experiment?

And how do you reconcile this opinion in relation to abortion?

what does the Milgram experiment have to do with abortion?
 
star2589 said:
what does the Milgram experiment have to do with abortion?


The same association it had with Jews.
 
star2589 said:
abortionists arent exactly nazi's taking orders from their superiors.

Ok, not exactly, but they are very close.

The experiment is about authority and compliance.
 
jimmyjack said:
Ok, not exactly, but they are very close.

The experiment is about authority and compliance.

and who's authority are the abortionists complying to?
 
star2589 said:
and who's authority are the abortionists complying to?

Lemethink ….whose authority are the abortionists complying to?...

[Think, think, think] (Captain America style)

Is it the governments?
 
jimmyjack said:
Lemethink ….whose authority are the abortionists complying to?...

[Think, think, think] (Captain America style)

Is it the governments?

nope. The government hasnt forced a single doctor to perform an abortion, nor a single woman to submit to one, to my knowledge. but if you know of such cases, please enlighten me.
 
star2589 said:
nope. The government hasnt forced a single doctor to perform an abortion, nor a single woman to submit to one, to my knowledge. but if you know of such cases, please enlighten me.

Obviously your talking the USA government? 'Cause clearly China has forced many women to undergo abortions against their will.

Also the supreme court has looked into and decided not to hear cases of forced abortion right here in the good 'ol USA.
 
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talloulou said:
Obviously your talking the USA government?

yes.

talloulou said:
'Cause clearly China has forced many women to undergo abortions against their will.

it doesnt surprise me, but could you provide some links?

talloulou said:
Also the supreme court has looked into and decided not to hear cases of forced abortion right here in the good 'ol USA.

it also doesnt surprise me that there may be some isolated incidences in the US, but if we are going to talk about "abortion" and "abortionists" as general terms, we need to talk about what happens in general.

and again, could you provide some links?
 
You know, they repeated that experiment in countries all over the world, and found that people's willingness to comply varied hugely depending on the culture in which they were raised. Americans and Japanese were the highest, the Turkish at the bottom.
 
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star2589 said:
nope. The government hasnt forced a single doctor to perform an abortion, nor a single woman to submit to one, to my knowledge. but if you know of such cases, please enlighten me.

But they force foetuses to die, plus the abortionist must receive a command to do the job since they don't spontaneously do abortions, do they?
 
star2589 said:
it doesnt surprise me, but could you provide some links?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/19/taiwan.china.abortion/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/23/wkor23.xml

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=2626

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA170522004



it also doesnt surprise me that there may be some isolated incidences in the US, but if we are going to talk about "abortion" and "abortionists" as general terms, we need to talk about what happens in general.

and again, could you provide some links?[/QUOTE]

http://altnews.com.au/nuke/article.php?sid=6611

http://www.forerunner.com/fyi/law/roe-v-aw/rb032800.htm

" 16. When the abortionist had barely started, Jane Roe, II felt extreme, excessive pain in her abdomen unlike any pain she had ever felt before. When Jane Roe, II told the abortionist's helpers about the pain in her stomach, defendants' staff looked at one another with horrified looks on their faces, saying nothing.

17. Immediately Jane Roe, II knew that the abortion was going terribly wrong. "Mom", " Mom", she started calling in a loud desperate voice. She then demanded that an ambulance be called to take her to the emergency room at the local hospital.

18. Instead of calling an ambulance, defendants' staff forcibly held Jane Roe, II on the table causing multiple bruises on her arms in the process. Jane Roe, II was now afraid for her life.

19. Defendant William P. Egherman continued the abortion as four other of defendants' employees held Jane Roe, II on the table against her will, preventing her escape from the facility."

http://www.forerunner.com/cc/press/pr040201.htm
 
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jimmyjack said:
But they force foetuses to die

the government forces fetuses to die? how so?

jimmyjack said:
plus the abortionist must receive a command to do the job since they don't spontaneously do abortions, do they?

abortionists recieve no such command. they ask for their job, and they can quit at any time.
 
talloulou said:
16. When the abortionist had barely started, Jane Roe, II felt extreme, excessive pain in her abdomen unlike any pain she had ever felt before. When Jane Roe, II told the abortionist's helpers about the pain in her stomach, defendants' staff looked at one another with horrified looks on their faces, saying nothing.

17. Immediately Jane Roe, II knew that the abortion was going terribly wrong. "Mom", " Mom", she started calling in a loud desperate voice. She then demanded that an ambulance be called to take her to the emergency room at the local hospital.

18. Instead of calling an ambulance, defendants' staff forcibly held Jane Roe, II on the table causing multiple bruises on her arms in the process. Jane Roe, II was now afraid for her life.

19. Defendant William P. Egherman continued the abortion as four other of defendants' employees held Jane Roe, II on the table against her will, preventing her escape from the facility.

unfortunatly, her lawsuit was based on the Federal Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act. 18 U.S.C. § 248 ("FACE"). the reason it was dismissed, was because the FACE was not violated. it had nothing to do with whether her abortion was forced or not.

It is against this backdrop that Ms. Roe filed her Complaint against the Appellees. A review of Ms. Roe's Complaint reveals that she has failed to state a cause of action for which relief can be granted under FACE. Federal courts have recognized that there are three elements which a plaintiff must allege in order to successfully state a cause of action under FACE. The first element which a plaintiff must demonstrate is that the defendant engaged in physical obstruction of a reproductive health facility. U.S. v. Wilson, 2 F.Supp.2d 1170, 1171 (E.D. Wis. 1998). Based upon the definitions quoted above, Aware Woman qualifies as a facility under the act. Further, the allegations of Ms. Roe's Complaint, construed in a manner which is most favorable to Ms. Roe, allege that Ms. Roe was physically obstructed from egress from the facility. As such, Ms. Roe's Complaint has arguably alleged the first element of a claim under FACE.

The second element which a plaintiff must demonstrate in order to state a cause of action for a violation of FACE is that a defendant intended to interfere with or attempted to interfere with persons attempting to gain entrance to or egress from a reproductive health facility. Id. Once again, construing the allegations of Ms. Roe's Complaint in a manner which is most favorable to her, she has arguably alleged sufficient facts in order to satisfy this second element of a FACE cause of action. There is at least a reasonable inference to be drawn from the allegations of Ms. Roe's Complaint that employees of Aware Woman intended to interfere with Ms. Roe's efforts to leave the facility.

However, it is the third element of a FACE cause of action which Ms. Roe failed to allege in her Complaint, the-absence of which mandates that this Court affirm the decision of the District Court. The final element is often called the "motive element," and requires that a plaintiff demonstrate that the intentional interference with persons entering or exiting a facility "was done for the express purpose of preventing such persons from obtaining or providing reproductive health services." Id. Simply stated, there is no allegation in Ms. Roe's Complaint which suggests that the Defendants' motive in restricting Ms. Roe's egress from the facility was for the express purpose of preventing her from obtaining reproductive health services. To the contrary, the Complaint itself suggests that the abortion itself was actually performed on Ms. Roe. Therefore, it is apparent from the allegations of the Complaint that Ms. Roe has not alleged, nor could she possibly under any set of circumstances, that the express purpose of the intentional interference with her egress from the facility was to prevent her from obtaining reproductive health services. In the absence of such an allegation, Ms. Roe's Complaint fails as a matter of law, and the District Court was correct in dismissing her claim.

she had a chance to amend her complaint, but did not do so.

The District Court granted the Appellees' motions to dismiss in an Order dated January 3, 2000. After extensive analysis, the District Court ordered that the Appellees' motions to dismiss would be granted. However, the District Court also ruled that the dismissal would be without prejudice, and that Ms. Roe would have ten days from the date of the Order in which to file an amended complaint. Rather than following the course indicated by the language of the District Court's Order, Ms. Roe elected to file a Notice of Appeal in order to seek immediate review of the District Court's Order in this Court.

had her complaint been based a different law, the outcome may very well have been different.
 
star2589 said:
the government forces fetuses to die? how so?

By removing their right to life.

star2589 said:
abortionists recieve no such command. they ask for their job, and they can quit at any time.

Then a soldier that shoots dead a civilian at the command of his leader has not been commanded to kill a civilian, because he has free will too.
 
jimmyjack said:
they force foetuses to die
star2589 said:
the government forces fetuses to die? how so?
jimmyjack said:
By removing their right to life.

not having a right to live, and being forced to die are not the same thing. animals do not have the right to live, yet only a minuscule amount are ever forced to die by humans, and of those that are, only a minuscule amount are forced by the government.


star2589 said:
abortionists recieve no such command. they ask for their job, and they can quit at any time.
jimmyjack said:
Then a soldier that shoots dead a civilian at the command of his leader has not been commanded to kill a civilian, because he has free will too.

there is the difference. one recieves a command, the other does not.

furthermore this statement "Then a soldier that shoots dead a civilian at the command of his leader has not been commanded to kill a civilian" makes no sense.

to clarify my statement, free will has nothing to do with it. the fact is that no one commands the abortionist to do anything in the first place. possibly with the exception of some isolated incidences. unless you're only trying to compare the Milgram experiment to those isolated incidences, the comparison is invalid.
 
star2589 said:
not having a right to live, and being forced to die are not the same thing. animals do not have the right to live, yet only a minuscule amount are ever forced to die by humans, and of those that are, only a minuscule amount are forced by the government.

Then should the government say that we can kill Pro-choice activists if we feel like it, you cannot complain upon being butchered, since no one forced you to die.

star2589 said:
the fact is that no one commands the abortionist to do anything in the first place.

Then how does an abortionist know to do the abortion?
 
jimmyjack said:
Then should the government say that we can kill Pro-choice activists if we feel like it, you cannot complain upon being butchered, since no one forced you to die.

no because those that are born do have a right to live, except where its been removed by due process of law. citizens killing because they "feel like it" is not due process of law.

jimmyjack said:
Then how does an abortionist know to do the abortion?

they are asked. not commanded.
 
star2589 said:
no because those that are born do have a right to live, except where its been removed by due process of law. citizens killing because they "feel like it" is not due process of law.

Like I said, if the government said (by due process of law) that we can kill Pro-choice activists if we feel like it, you cannot complain upon being butchered, since no one forced you to die.

star2589 said:
they are asked. not commanded.

What is the differance?
 
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jimmyjack said:
Like I said, if the government said (removed by due process of law) that we can kill Pro-choice activists if we feel like it, you cannot complain upon being butchered, since no one forced you to die.

oh, i could complain about it all I wanted. thats what people do when they dont like the law and want to see it changed. unless of course the first amendment was revoked. in that case outright rebellion would be the best course of action. as far as I'm concerned, people can complain all they want about fetal rights. that doesnt contradict my origional statement:

"not having a right to live, and being forced to die are not the same thing."


star2589 said:
they are asked. not commanded.
jimmyjack said:
What is the differance?

from www.thefreedictionary.com :

ask Pronunciation (sk)
v.intr.
1. To make inquiry; seek information.
2. To make a request: asked for help.

com·mand Pronunciation (k-mnd)
v.intr.
1. To give orders.
2. To exercise authority or control as or as if one is a commander.

hope that helps.
 
star2589 said:
oh, i could complain about it all I wanted. thats what people do when they dont like the law and want to see it changed. unless of course the first amendment was revoked. in that case outright rebellion would be the best course of action. as far as I'm concerned, people can complain all they want about fetal rights. that doesnt contradict my origional statement:

"not having a right to live, and being forced to die are not the same thing."

No, no, no, your original statement is that no force is used, and so it is with the argument I levelled at you, there is no room for you to suggest that legislating the killing of pro-choice activists can amount to you being forced to die upon receiving the butchery that sees you die.

star2589 said:

If you draw a distinction between a command and a request, how can you not identify the command an abortionist makes on a foetus to leave his or her place of residence?
 
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jimmyjack said:
No, no, no, your original statement is that no force is used, and so it is with the argument I levelled at you, there is no room for you to suggest that legislating the killing of pro-choice activists can amount to you being forced to die upon receiving the butchery that sees you die.

if the legislation states that pro-choice activists have no right to life, then I dont suggest that the state is forcing pro-choice activists to die.

if the legislation states that all pro choice activists must be killed, then the comparison is invalid sinse there is no legislation requiring fetuses to be aborted.

jimmyjack said:
If you draw a distinction between a command and a request, how can you not identify the command an abortionist makes on a foetus to leave his or her place of residence?

no command is given to the fetus. an action is taken upon the fetus - the action to take its life and remove it from the womb. a command by contrast would be to say to the fetus: "die and exit the womb immediatly."

furthermore, the milgram experiement requires the subject to be capible of understanding and executing the commands. a fetus is capible of neither.

sinse no command is given, the Milgram experiment is still irrelevant.
 
star2589 said:
if the legislation states that pro-choice activists have no right to life, then I dont suggest that the state is forcing pro-choice activists to die.

Not even if they die as a result of the legislation?

star2589 said:
if the legislation states that all pro choice activists must be killed, then the comparison is invalid sinse there is no legislation requiring fetuses to be aborted.

I never said that all pro-choice die in my exemplar, I said:

If the government said (by due process of law) that we can kill Pro-choice activists if we feel like it, you cannot complain upon being butchered, since no one forced you to die.

Surely you would deem that wrong especially if the justification came on the basis of an opinion that you where not people.


star2589 said:
no command is given to the fetus. an action is taken upon the fetus - the action to take its life and remove it from the womb. a command by contrast would be to say to the fetus: "die and exit the womb immediatly."

So if I kick you out of your home and take your house with force you will accept that method of repossession, yet if I command you to leave your house and let me have it, you deem that unacceptable?

star2589 said:
furthermore, the milgram experiement requires the subject to be capible of understanding and executing the commands. a fetus is capible of neither.

sinse no command is given, the Milgram experiment is still irrelevant.

The Stanley Milgram experiment demonstrates how people will follow the men in white coats as appose to reconciling a situation with their own conscience.
 
jimmyjack said:
Not even if they die as a result of the legislation?

correct.

jimmyjack said:
I never said that all pro-choice die in my exemplar, I said:

If the government said (by due process of law) that we can kill Pro-choice activists if we feel like it, you cannot complain upon being butchered, since no one forced you to die.

Surely you would deem that wrong especially if the justification came on the basis of an opinion that you where not people.

as I said in post 21
star2589 said:
oh, i could complain about it all I wanted. thats what people do when they dont like the law and want to see it changed. unless of course the first amendment was revoked. in that case outright rebellion would be the best course of action. as far as I'm concerned, people can complain all they want about fetal rights.

yes, if the government said (by due process of law) that we can kill Pro-choice activists if we feel like it, I would deem it wrong.

star2589 said:
no command is given to the fetus. an action is taken upon the fetus - the action to take its life and remove it from the womb. a command by contrast would be to say to the fetus: "die and exit the womb immediatly."

furthermore, the milgram experiement requires the subject to be capible of understanding and executing the commands. a fetus is capible of neither.

sinse no command is given, the Milgram experiment is still irrelevant.
jimmyjack said:
So if I kick you out of your home and take your house with force you will accept that method of repossession, yet if I command you to leave your house and let me have it, you deem that unacceptable?

nope. both are unacceptable. In the former case I just wont make any comparisons to the Milgram experiment.

jimmyjack said:
The Stanley Milgram experiment demonstrates how people will follow the men in white coats as appose to reconciling a situation with their own conscience.

which brings me back to post two.
star2589 said:
what does the Milgram experiment have to do with abortion?
 

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