Stand your ground is just an excuse to blast away. [W:120]

[ChrisL]

First of all I must say that it seems to be really hard for people to grasp some of the subtleties on my positions on many issues. (argh) For instance, in this case, I am not suggesting that we abolish the law however, it seems that given the number of instances where it is used to justify a killing that someone went out of their way to execute....it seems wise to consider tightening it up a little so that is actually manages to provided the intended results without abolishing the law altogether.

Well what are some of your suggestions on how you would like to tighten up on the law?

 

[douglas]

how much does a pond weigh?

I think it depends on the area of the pond, the depth, and the presence of ducks. The ducks weigh a lot more than you'd think.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

If you are talking about Zimmerman's case, SYG had nothing to do with his being found not guilty. Yeah, yeah, I know that's what that juror said. There was absolutely NOTHING in the instruction re Stand Your Ground that applied to Zimmerman and Martin. He wasn't standing his ground. He was PINNED to the ground. He couldn't have retreated had he wanted to. Once Martin popped him, he was done. I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding that.

The SYG law did play a role in the case; through both the judges instruction and the juror's referencing of SYG language.

 

[Jon Slice]

The SYG law did play a role in the case; through both the judges instruction and the juror's referencing of SYG language.

Again? :roll:

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Sure, the SYG law did play a role in the case; through both the judge's instruction and the juror's referencing of SYG language.

 

[James D Hill]

Stand your ground is a result of liberal lawyers enabling criminal thugs (like Trayvon Martin) to win law suits against people defending themselves. In states without it, like California, people are required to take into account the "level of threat" and "the ability to run away" and "who am I protecting" and on and on and on - and all knowing that if they get it wrong (with this little thing called adrenalin messing up the works) they will lose everything and go to prison because of an action instigated by a thug criminal like TM.

He was not a thug. Does smoking pot make you a thug? He was only 158 pounds and Zimmerman was 210 pounds. There was no excuse for having to shoot someone you outwiegh by 50 pounds.

 

[James D Hill]

The point is that individuals no longer feel the need to retreat in order to be found not guilty of doing nothing wrong. SYG laws allow a victim not to become a victim. It's that simple...

AP. When you bite off more than you can chew because one is a ***** does that give you the right to blast away? If you (George Zimmerman not you AP) are that freaking weak then maybe you should not be a wannabe cop in the first place. I just don't think it is right to peovoke a fight and then blast away to get your self out of it. I could be wrong.

 

[James D Hill]

How would you suggest the laws be changed?

AP my friend. There is already a right to defend yourself on the book. Why make the law even more in the favor of the gun freak. He/she already has the avantage. The kid was unarmed. Now I wiegh 300 pounds and can bench 405 pounds. I could see where a person might reach for a gun if I am after them but the kid was giving up 50+ pounds. There was no excuse for the ***** 28 year old to blast away. When I was 28 the kid would not have stood a chance.

 

[CalGun]

Yes a 17 year old hispanic boy didn't kill a El Paso police officer with his bare hands either - oops yes he did.

Trayvon Martin was in deed a thug and the sooner the American public figure that out the better; the media portrayal of the the little boy in the 12 or 14 year old image is pathetic media manipulation. TM did more than a little dope, more than a little theft, more than a little fighting, more then trying to buy a gun. He actually went back from the residence he was staying to confront the crazy azz cracker and proceeded to assault and batter him and the only one's who can't accept that reality are those with a political vendetta against someone defending their life with a weapon.

He was not a thug. Does smoking pot make you a thug? He was only 158 pounds and Zimmerman was 210 pounds. There was no excuse for having to shoot someone you outwiegh by 50 pounds.

 

[James D Hill]

Yes a 17 year old hispanic boy didn't kill a El Paso police officer with his bare hands either - oops yes he did.

Trayvon Martin was in deed a thug and the sooner the American public figure that out the better; the media portrayal of the the little boy in the 12 or 14 year old image is pathetic media manipulation. TM did more than a little dope, more than a little theft, more than a little fighting, more then trying to buy a gun. He actually went back from the residence he was staying to confront the crazy azz cracker and proceeded to assault and batter him and the only one's who can't accept that reality are those with a political vendetta against someone defending their life with a weapon.

Why would you need to use a gun when you outwieghed the punk by 50 pounds? I would not have needed one and if Zimmerman was that big a ***** then why was he a wannabe cop then?

 

[Lukas105]

I don't sit there and think how much I outweigh a person, when he's punching my face into the concrete. . .

 

[Kal'Stang]

We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.

Actually from my understanding SYG laws were implemented to counter act some laws that were being made to prevent people from defending themselves lethally in certain situations outside the home.

As for Z being in the wrong. Not according to the Jury he wasn't. But I'm actually not surprised that you think he was. You seem to be against any kind of authority whether real or imagined.

Also, just an FYI since you apparently don't know...Z was not found "not guilty due to SYG law". He was found not guilty due to self defense. That is what the defense argued for. They did not argue for SYG.

As for the rest of your bravado talk...I've seen people much smaller than TM kick the crap out of people bigger than Z. Me included during my school years. Though I doubt I could kick anyones *** now a days. :3oops:

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Actually from my understanding SYG laws were implemented to counter act some laws that were being made to prevent people from defending themselves lethally in certain situations outside the home.

As for Z being in the wrong. Not according to the Jury he wasn't. But I'm actually not surprised that you think he was. You seem to be against any kind of authority whether real or imagined.

Also, just an FYI since you apparently don't know...Z was not found "not guilty due to SYG law". He was found not guilty due to self defense. That is what the defense argued for. They did not argue for SYG.

As for the rest of your bravado talk...I've seen people much smaller than TM kick the crap out of people bigger than Z. Me included during my school years. Though I doubt I could kick anyones *** now a days. :3oops:

The problem is not the jury and the decision it is the actual law. A law which legally allows a person to use deadly force against another person if they provoke them in any way and the person is killed in the heat of the moment. People have a right to think this law is reprehensible.

 

[Kal'Stang]

The problem is not the jury and the decision it is the actual law. A law which legally allows a person to use deadly force against another person if they provoke them in any way and the person is killed in the heat of the moment. People have a right to think this law is reprehensible.

The law does not allow that. That is just media hype.

 

[Buck Ewer]

Okay kids, back on track. Isn't this suppose to be a discussion about the stand your ground laws?

I found this article intersting
Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied | Tampa Bay Times

I personally think this law empowers people in a very dangerous way.

Yes . If we want to murder someone in Flor-i duh all we need to do is goad and chastise them into taking a poke at us and we can come out guns a-blazing.
Murder is A-OK as long as we can get someone to throw one ****ing punch.
YE-FUUUCKING-HAAAAAAWWWWW!!!

 

[Buck Ewer]

Also, just an FYI since you apparently don't know...Z was not found "not guilty due to SYG law". He was found not guilty due to self defense. That is what the defense argued for. They did not argue for SYG.

That is not AT ALL true. The jury instructions FROM THE JUDGE included Stand Your Ground considerations and the jury has revealed that they did indeed include STAND YOUR GROUND in their deliberations.
Without Stand Your Ground Law Zimmerman would be in ****ing JAIL for manslaughter!

 

[Kal'Stang]

That is not AT ALL true. The jury instructions FROM THE JUDGE included Stand Your Ground considerations and the jury has revealed that they did indeed include STAND YOUR GROUND in their deliberations.
Without Stand Your Ground Law Zimmerman would be in ****ing JAIL for manslaughter!

No, the two jurors that talked revealed that there was not enough evidence enough to convict Z on Murder 2 or manslaughter under the law. Neither juror B29 or B37 said that they did not convict due to the SYG law. And since the defense did not argue for SYG but instead argued for self defense then assuming that those two jurors did not convict because of SYG law is ....well...you know what they say when you ASSume something right?

BTW, the instructions from the judge also included self defense. The judge is suppose to provide all instructions by law on ANY and ALL laws that might even be SLIGHTLY relevent to the case. So just because the judge included instructions for the SYG law does not mean that the jurors actually used it as a basis to not convict Z.

 

[Buck Ewer]

Neither juror B29 or B37 said that they did not convict due to the SYG law.

THAT IS A LIE!
Quote directly from the Judges instructions to the jury:

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in anyplace where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony

Quote directly from juror B37 in CNN interview:

JUROR:

Right. Because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right.
COOPER: Even though he got out of the car, followed Trayvon Martin that didn’t matter in the deliberations. What mattered was the final seconds, minutes when there was an altercation and whether or not in your mind the most important thing was whether or not George Zimmerman felt his life was in danger?
JUROR: That’s how we read the law. That’s how we got to the point of everybody being not guilty.

Stand Your Ground is why Zimmerman walked.
You COULD say that Stand Your Ground did not have anything to do with why Zimmerman was acquitted ... But that assertion would not be consistent with the facts.

 

[Kal'Stang]

THAT IS A LIE!
Quote directly from the Judges instructions to the jury:

That is only PART of the instructions that the judge gave and you know it. I know you want to deny the truth but at least try and stick with ALL the facts.

Quote directly from juror B37 in CNN interview:

JUROR:
Stand Your Ground is why Zimmerman walked.
You COULD say that Stand Your Ground did not have anything to do with why Zimmerman was acquitted ... But that assertion would not be consistent with the facts.

Actually it is consistant with the facts, and unlike you I provide proof...

"I think George got in a little bit too deep, which he shouldn't have been there. But Trayvon decided that he wasn't going to let him scare him ... and I think Trayvon got mad and attacked him," she said.

Zimmerman felt his life was in danger before shooting Martin, and it was his voice that was heard screaming for help in 911 calls, the juror said she believes.

"He had a right to defend himself," she said. "If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him, or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right."

Juror ~ B37: 'No doubt' that George Zimmerman feared for his life

Just to note: I added the "B37" to the link title in order to let you know that it was about juror B37. The rest of it is from the title of the article.

One more thing, if you can't argue without getting upset then I would suggest taking a breather from this topic for a bit. Just a suggestion of course. When one gets emotional thier arguements tend to fall apart rather quickly.

 

[CalGun]

I would say ask the young police officer from El Paso but he's dead. Clearly you have zero clue about a face to face confrontation. Explaining it to you would be a waste of time.

Why would you need to use a gun when you outwieghed the punk by 50 pounds? I would not have needed one and if Zimmerman was that big a ***** then why was he a wannabe cop then?

 

[Buck Ewer]

Please read again:
Quote directly from juror B37 in CNN interview:

JUROR:

Right. Because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right.
COOPER: Even though he got out of the car, followed Trayvon Martin that didn’t matter in the deliberations. What mattered was the final seconds, minutes when there was an altercation and whether or not in your mind the most important thing was whether or not George Zimmerman felt his life was in danger?
JUROR: That’s how we read the law. That’s how we got to the point of everybody being not guilty.

Stand Your Ground is why Zimmerman walked and now we can look forward to lots of homicides where people provoke one punch and answer with a lethal ballistic response.
The Zimmerman case set a precedent and now we will have to live with the lethal consequences.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Please read again:
Quote directly from juror B37 in CNN interview:

JUROR:
Stand Your Ground is why Zimmerman walked and now we can look forward to lots of homicides where people provoke one punch and answer with a lethal ballistic response.
The Zimmerman case set a precedent and now we will have to live with the lethal consequences.

Bolding and making the words bigger is meaningless. I provided a direct quote and link to back it up. All you've done is provide a quote that could have been taken from anywhere and provided no context or order and no idea if that is just made up crap from you or if B37 actually said it.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

The law does not allow that. That is just media hype.

The law does allow it.

 

[Kal'Stang]

The law does allow it.

Prove it. Bring forth the exact law in its entirety and show me exactly where it states or implies that.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.

You should probably check the facts of the case and then edit your post.....