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Stand your ground is just an excuse to blast away. [W:120]

James D Hill

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We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.
 

WCH

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We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.
You can't use that as a defense if you are committing a crime [starting a fight/assault] Zimmerman was NOT found to have done such.
 

CalGun

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Stand your ground is a result of liberal lawyers enabling criminal thugs (like Trayvon Martin) to win law suits against people defending themselves. In states without it, like California, people are required to take into account the "level of threat" and "the ability to run away" and "who am I protecting" and on and on and on - and all knowing that if they get it wrong (with this little thing called adrenalin messing up the works) they will lose everything and go to prison because of an action instigated by a thug criminal like TM.


We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.
 

Ikari

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We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.
We have an entire forum dedicated to Zimmerman BS; take it there.

And BTW, these laws were needed because of the lawsuits and time and money we were bilking from people for exercising their right to defense.
 

Ikari

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opendebate

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"Dangerous" That just sounds like someone who can't accept the consequences of freedom.
What?? Would you like to explain that please
 

Goshin

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We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.


Your ignorance on this issue comes as no surprise. All these issues have been addressed; apparently you are among the few who have not yet heard. Your failure to understand the law in this regard is yet another example of how you pontificate on things without having put any effort into understanding them. While this is hardly unusual on DP, I am tempted to say that the scope and breadth to which you do this raises it to an art form... if the art in question were created using random blasts of dog excrement on an otherwise tolerable landscape.

SYG was not actually a significant issue in the trial, or the acquittal. The so-called "stand your ground" laws merely remove an artificial and needless requirement to retreat before using lethal force, which is usually impossible anyway once that point has been reached.

Of course, this correction will fall upon deaf ears and a closed mind, and provoke a reaction whose content can be summarized as "WTF? Is too!!" :roll:
 

MaggieD

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We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.
How about having an intelligent conversation about it? How about showing us the stand-your-ground law you're objecting to instead of just talking blatant generalities?

Or is this just Zimmerman/Martin 2,486?
 

Ikari

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What?? Would you like to explain that please
The most dangerous thing to our rights and liberties is the government itself. An individual protecting their person, rights, or property is not as dangerous as trying to intervene government in every case where it is necessary. Because we are free, we are necessarily in more danger. Because we are free, we will realize the full aggregate statistical distribution of behavior and probability. Because we are free. If you try to augment that, you act against freedom. It is an inability to understand and accept the consequences of freedom.
 

Thrilla

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We already have the right to defend ourselves. We can already shoot an intruder in our home. We can shoot someone if we are being robbed or assalted. Why then do we need a law that says you do not have to back down even if you are in the wrong like Zimmerman. He was in the wrong. The kid had onlt candy,a soft drink in a bag and fourty bucks in his wallet. Stand your ground means you can provoke a fight and when you get you wussy ass kicked shoot the person. What an outrage. Other than smoking pot the kid was not a criminal and he only wieghed 158 lbs. When I was 28 years old like George Zimmerman I wieghed 225 ponds and I can assure you no 158 pound kid could throw me to the ground. You should not be able to provoke a fight then shoot the person who kicks your ass. That is redneck and wrong. It is time to end stand your ground.

SYG laws were enacted to get rid of the duty to retreat, when faced with a self defense situation) from anywhere you have a right to be.

yes, some moron came up with a REQUIREMENT that people must retreat , if at all possible, in self defense situations.... or be faced with a possible criminal charge if they didn't... in some jurisdictions, you even had the duty to retreat when in your own home (castle doctrine laws took care of that nonsense).... think about that for a minute.

in any event , it's utter idiocy to say " it's an excuse to blast away".. it's not.
 

opendebate

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Your ignorance on this issue comes as no surprise. All these issues have been addressed; apparently you are among the few who have not yet heard. Your failure to understand the law in this regard is yet another example of how you pontificate on things without having put any effort into understanding them. While this is hardly unusual on DP, I am tempted to say that the scope and breadth to which you do this raises it to an art form... if the art in question were created using random blasts of dog excrement on an otherwise tolerable landscape.

SYG was not actually a significant issue in the trial, or the acquittal. The so-called "stand your ground" laws merely remove an artificial and needless requirement to retreat before using lethal force, which is usually impossible anyway once that point has been reached.

Of course, this correction will fall upon deaf ears and a closed mind, and provoke a reaction whose content can be summarized as "WTF? Is too!!" :roll:
First of all, you're senseless display of bravado and insistence on demeaning people who do not agree with you does not lend your position any great credibility. Frankly, you appear to be the one this is not informed. The law is being abused, it has been twisted to the advantage of people who want to kill someone for reasons other than self defense. It may have been born of good intentions but .... you know what they say about that.
 

AlabamaPaul

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First of all, you're senseless display of bravado and insistence on demeaning people who do not agree with you does not lend your position any great credibility. Frankly, you appear to be the one this is not informed. The law is being abused, it has been twisted to the advantage of people who want to kill someone for reasons other than self defense. It may have been born of good intentions but .... you know what they say about that.
Do you have a problem with the minorities in FL, or other states, that have utilized the law to defend themselves?
 

ChrisL

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First of all, you're senseless display of bravado and insistence on demeaning people who do not agree with you does not lend your position any great credibility. Frankly, you appear to be the one this is not informed. The law is being abused, it has been twisted to the advantage of people who want to kill someone for reasons other than self defense. It may have been born of good intentions but .... you know what they say about that.
I'm skeptical of that and would like to see some documentation.

Also, more people are killed by intruders, such as during home invasions, as opposed to legally armed citizens killing any criminals or anyone else for that matter.
 

Goshin

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First of all, you're senseless display of bravado and insistence on demeaning people who do not agree with you does not lend your position any great credibility. Frankly, you appear to be the one this is not informed. The law is being abused, it has been twisted to the advantage of people who want to kill someone for reasons other than self defense. It may have been born of good intentions but .... you know what they say about that.

I am not sure if you have actually met Mr Hill, or read his many threads. I suspect not. I assure you my attitude towards him is far from senseless, but is rather rooted in considerable weary experience in his tendency to pontificate in an abysmal absence of data and forethought.

Secondly, you have no capacity to prove that the much-misnamed "SYG" laws are being used in the manner you assert; if you're talking about T/M, you have no capacity to prove Zimmerman's non-SD intent, and are in conflict with the jury verdict as well.
 

opendebate

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The most dangerous thing to our rights and liberties is the government itself. An individual protecting their person, rights, or property is not as dangerous as trying to intervene government in every case where it is necessary. Because we are free, we are necessarily in more danger. Because we are free, we will realize the full aggregate statistical distribution of behavior and probability. Because we are free. If you try to augment that, you act against freedom. It is an inability to understand and accept the consequences of freedom.
Sounds a little like anarchy and I see anarchy as pretty naive. True freedom is valued but not at any cost. Not above innocent lives. We can and should have reasonable laws and limitations to our freedom that protect us from the recklessness of others and I for one think that is worth it.
 

opendebate

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Do you have a problem with the minorities in FL, or other states, that have utilized the law to defend themselves?
The problem is that the law is being abused. We should all be allowed to defend ourselves under an actual threat to our lives or the lives of people we love. If someone broke into my home ... I would shoot them dead in a second. However, this law IN PRACTICE is not holding true to its intent. Read the article I attached earlier.
 

opendebate

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I'm skeptical of that and would like to see some documentation.

Also, more people are killed by intruders, such as during home invasions, as opposed to legally armed citizens killing any criminals or anyone else for that matter.
Read the article I attached earlier. It will illustrate my point well.
 

opendebate

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I am not sure if you have actually met Mr Hill, or read his many threads. I suspect not. I assure you my attitude towards him is far from senseless, but is rather rooted in considerable weary experience in his tendency to pontificate in an abysmal absence of data and forethought.

Secondly, you have no capacity to prove that the much-misnamed "SYG" laws are being used in the manner you assert; if you're talking about T/M, you have no capacity to prove Zimmerman's non-SD intent, and are in conflict with the jury verdict as well.
Frankly, I'm sick to death of talking about this case to people who don't appear to have the slightest capacity to be objective about this case.

Did you read the article I attached earlier? It has a lot of information in it about how the law has backfired.
 

ChrisL

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Okay kids, back on track. Isn't this suppose to be a discussion about the stand your ground laws?

I found this article intersting
Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied | Tampa Bay Times

I personally think this law empowers people in a very dangerous way.
This is not the fault of the law. This is the fault of lazy or incompetent prosecutors.


Seven years since it was passed, Florida's "stand your ground" law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.

Cases with similar facts show surprising — sometimes shocking — differences in outcomes. If you claim "stand your ground" as the reason you shot someone, what happens to you can depend less on the merits of the case than on who you are, whom you kill and where your case is decided.
 

AlabamaPaul

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The problem is that the law is being abused. We should all be allowed to defend ourselves under an actual threat to our lives or the lives of people we love. If someone broke into my home ... I would shoot them dead in a second. However, this law IN PRACTICE is not holding true to its intent. Read the article I attached earlier.
The point is that individuals no longer feel the need to retreat in order to be found not guilty of doing nothing wrong. SYG laws allow a victim not to become a victim. It's that simple...
 

Goshin

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Frankly, I'm sick to death of talking about this case to people who don't appear to have the slightest capacity to be objective about this case.

Did you read the article I attached earlier? It has a lot of information in it about how the law has backfired.

No, I didn't read your article... because I am sick to death of talking about this case to people who don't appear to have the slightest capacity to be objective about this case.
 

opendebate

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SYG laws were enacted to get rid of the duty to retreat, when faced with a self defense situation) from anywhere you have a right to be.

yes, some moron came up with a REQUIREMENT that people must retreat , if at all possible, in self defense situations.... or be faced with a possible criminal charge if they didn't... in some jurisdictions, you even had the duty to retreat when in your own home (castle doctrine laws took care of that nonsense).... think about that for a minute.

in any event , it's utter idiocy to say " it's an excuse to blast away".. it's not.

It is being used for this very reason. Here are some examples from an article I posted earlier

a 14-year-old Miami youth who shot someone trying to steal his Jet Ski.
a Fort Myers homeowner who shot a bear and a West Palm Beach jogger who beat a Jack Russell terrier.

Questionable cases

Whatever lawmakers' expectations, "stand your ground" arguments have resulted in freedom or reduced sentences for some unlikely defendants.

• An 18-year-old felon, convicted of cocaine and weapons charges, shot and wounded a neighbor in the stomach, then fled the scene and was involved in another nonfatal shootout two days later, according to police. He was granted immunity in the first shooting.

• Two men fell into the water while fighting on a dock. When one started climbing out of the water, the other shot him in the back of the head, killing him. He was acquitted after arguing "stand your ground."

• A Seventh-day Adventist was acting erratically, doing cartwheels through an apartment complex parking lot, pounding on cars and apartment windows and setting off alarms. A tenant who felt threatened by the man's behavior shot and killed him. He was not charged.

• A Citrus County man in a longstanding dispute with a neighbor shot and killed the man one night in 2009. He was not charged even though a witness and the location of two bullet wounds showed the victim was turning to leave when he was shot.

Even chasing and killing someone over a drug buy can be considered standing your ground.

Anthony Gonzalez Jr. was part of a 2010 drug deal that went sour when someone threatened Gonzalez with a gun. Gonzalez chased the man down and killed him during a high-speed gunbattle through Miami streets.

In November 2007, a Houston-area man pulled out a shotgun and killed two men whom he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor’s home. Joe Horn, a 61-year-old retiree, called 911 and urged the operator to “ ‘Catch these guys, will you? Cause, I ain’t going to let them go.’ ” Despite being warned to remain inside his home, Horn stated he would shoot, telling the operator, “ ‘I have a right to protect myself too, sir. The laws have been changed in this country since September the first, and you know it.’ ”

In Louisiana early this year, a grand jury cleared 21-year-old Byron Thomas after he fired into an SUV filled with teenagers after an alleged marijuana transaction went sour. One of the bullets struck and killed 15-year-old Jamonta Miles. Although the SUV was allegedly driving away when Thomas opened fire, Lafourche Parish Sheriff Craig Webre said to local media that as far as Thomas knew, someone could have jumped out of the vehicle with a gun. Thomas, said the sheriff, had “decided to stand his ground.”
 

Goshin

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It is being used for this very reason. Here are some examples from an article I posted earlier

a 14-year-old Miami youth who shot someone trying to steal his Jet Ski.
a Fort Myers homeowner who shot a bear and a West Palm Beach jogger who beat a Jack Russell terrier.

Questionable cases

Whatever lawmakers' expectations, "stand your ground" arguments have resulted in freedom or reduced sentences for some unlikely defendants.

• An 18-year-old felon, convicted of cocaine and weapons charges, shot and wounded a neighbor in the stomach, then fled the scene and was involved in another nonfatal shootout two days later, according to police. He was granted immunity in the first shooting.

• Two men fell into the water while fighting on a dock. When one started climbing out of the water, the other shot him in the back of the head, killing him. He was acquitted after arguing "stand your ground."

• A Seventh-day Adventist was acting erratically, doing cartwheels through an apartment complex parking lot, pounding on cars and apartment windows and setting off alarms. A tenant who felt threatened by the man's behavior shot and killed him. He was not charged.

• A Citrus County man in a longstanding dispute with a neighbor shot and killed the man one night in 2009. He was not charged even though a witness and the location of two bullet wounds showed the victim was turning to leave when he was shot.

Even chasing and killing someone over a drug buy can be considered standing your ground.

Anthony Gonzalez Jr. was part of a 2010 drug deal that went sour when someone threatened Gonzalez with a gun. Gonzalez chased the man down and killed him during a high-speed gunbattle through Miami streets.


Florida is well known to have among the most liberal self-defense laws in the nation... including, apparently, the proviso that you may not necessarily need to be free from illegality in the lead-up to the shooting, which is required in almost all other states under most circumstances.

This is not, strictly speaking, a "Stand your ground" issue, as the misnamed "SYG" laws merely remove the duty to retreat prior to using lethal force. Florida's laws go further than that, and there have been cases where criminal behavior leading up to the incident was excused under Florida's statutes.


This is a FLORIDA problem... not a generalized, all-states "stand your ground" problem. It has to do with the specific way they worded their laws... and yes, there may be some cases where it is misapplied and some adjustment made... this does NOT mean throwing out SYG everywhere is the answer, it is not.
 

Ikari

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Sounds a little like anarchy and I see anarchy as pretty naive. True freedom is valued but not at any cost. Not above innocent lives. We can and should have reasonable laws and limitations to our freedom that protect us from the recklessness of others and I for one think that is worth it.
You will never save 100% of "innocent" life. This is statistical fact.
 
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