Spurred by Putin, Russians Turn on One Another Over the War

[noonereal]

Who hurt you?

Ok, I give up. What is the question if reference to?

 

[noonereal]

I do not want a direct conflict between the west and putin atm. I do agree with giving the Ukraine military arms until Russia is out of all of Ukraine

I am ok with arming them. The chess match requires no direct involvement however. We must respect the rules or the game could blow up.

 

[Antiwar]

... the need for NATO will be greater than ever.

Quoting NATO truth combined with NATO gaslighting: Nuclear weapons are a core component of NATO’s overall capabilities for deterrence and defence ...


And:

Strategic nuclear forces

The strategic forces of the Alliance, and particularly those of the United States, are the supreme guarantee of the security of the Allies.

NATO’s nuclear deterrence policy and forces

Nuclear weapons are a core component of NATO’s overall capabilities for deterrence and defence, alongside conventional and missile defence forces. NATO is committed to arms control, disarmament and non-proliferation, but as long as nuclear weapons exist, it will remain a nuclear alliance.

www.nato.int

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Hogwash.

What comes first, survival or morals?

Morals has its place but not at the top of the pole. Plus, as stated previous by another, morals are specific to culture. There is no universality to what they even are.

One of the reasons why the Russian army has done so poorly in Ukraine is because many individual Russian soldiers don’t believe in the righteousness of their cause. They have literally walked away from the battlefield. And with respect to Ukraine, part of the reason why they are doing well is because they know they are being attacked unjustly. Furthermore, Ukraine has received substantial support from the West, primarily because of people feel it’s immortal for Ukraine to be attacked by Russia. Morality is an important intangible and it’s foolish to dismiss it, especially in the face of such overwhelming evidence of its impact. Also, Ukraine’s cause is universal in nature. What culture does not understand the morality involved with respect to one country unjustly attacking another?

 

[noonereal]

One of the reasons why the Russian army has done so poorly in Ukraine is because many individual Russian soldiers don’t believe in the righteousness of their cause. and with respect to Ukraine, part of the reason why they are doing well is because they know they are being attacked unjustly. Furthermore, Ukraine has received substantial support from the West, primarily because of people feel it’s immortal for Ukraine to be attacked by Russia. Morality is an important intangible and it’s foolish to dismiss it, especially in the face of such overwhelming evidence of its impact.

Oh, God. We gave support to Ukraine for strategic reasons, not moral reasons.

I get it. Humans don't want to see themselves for what they really are. That is really what all these responses are about to me. Nothing more.

I talk to coldly, objectively. People need to feel fuzzy and warm.

Peace

 

[Antiwar]

The US government's main sphere of influence (through economic and military domination):

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Oh, God. We gave support to Ukraine for strategic reasons, not moral reasons.

This is, quite frankly, not true. Ukraine has received hundreds of millions of dollars in private donations from individuals and businesses.

There have also been tens of thousands of military volunteers.

These orgs and individuals did not give to Ukraine for geopolitical or strategic reasons.

They did it because they were sympathetic to their cause.

I get it. Humans don't want to see themselves for what they really are. That is really what all these responses are about to me. Nothing more.

I talk to coldly, objectively. People need to feel fuzzy and warm.

Peace

It’s normal to feel emotions.

It’s normal to express emotions.

It’s normal to feel sympathetic with respect to the emotions of others.

What’s abnormal is to not feel or express emotions.

These things have an actual impact in times of war.

For instance, when the Russian army refuses to collect its own dead this makes living Russian soldiers feel bad. It lets them know their government doesn’t care about them.

 

[RAMOSS]

I am ok with arming them. The chess match requires no direct involvement however. We must respect the rules or the game could blow up.

Thus far, that seems to be the strategy of the west. I suspect it will continue to be that way. I feel sorry for the people of both Ukraine and Russia that have to feel the effects of Putin's ego and ambitions.

 

[Mr Person]

You said it! You agree with me. We can't intervene everywhere. We have to set lines. We have. NATO IS the line. Especially as this is not in our sphere.

I figured it was evident in what you responded to the first time. Yes, we have to set lines. I waver one this one. I disagree that morality should never come into play. Those strategic reasons I agree with for supporting Ukraine apply. That's all.

I cannot say one way is better than the other, as long as the ways are doing what we are (and perhaps more) to provide material support, and a hot war with a Russia who could only respond with nukes or fold.

 

[NolanVoyd]

I doubt this would be your direction if confronted by serious injury or death directly. It's goes against human nature.

Well. I have been in that position and I did the right thing, as have millions upon millions before me.

What is the point of self preservation if you can't or won't do the right thing.

I'd rather not. It's illogical.

 

[coyote505]

We need to SERIOUSLY up our anti-tank, anti-artillery support to Ukraine. The Javelins have apparently done very well. However, they are point and shoot weapons, needing the target in sight. The Russians have now gone to stand off tactics, using artillery to murder civilians from a distance, while dug in. Ukraine needs drones to search out and kill these targets. Switchblades are Dirt Cheap at $6K for killing a $2M tank and three murderous thugs, or an APC with maybe 10 murderous thugs. Saying we will send 100 of them is not even serious. The Switchblade factory should be running 3 shifts. We should send 20K or more, to hunt down and kill every tank, APC and artillery piece Putin has in Ukraine.

 

[d0gbreath]

If the USA criminalized dissent, I'd never see the light of day. The Russian middle of the road centrists and anyone else with a lick of sense, need to band together and kick some major A.

 

[highroller]

The Conservative party in Russia is the one in charge.

Conservatives in Russia long for the days of the USSR

 

[What if...?]

“Spurred by trump Americans turn each other over lies about a stolen election. “

 

[noonereal]

I figured it was evident in what you responded to the first time. Yes, we have to set lines. I waver one this one. I disagree that morality should never come into play. Those strategic reasons I agree with for supporting Ukraine apply. That's all.

I cannot say one way is better than the other, as long as the ways are doing what we are (and perhaps more) to provide material support, and a hot war with a Russia who could only respond with nukes or fold.

I think morals is very high on the list.

I do not think it moves ahead of self preservation.

In fact, I know it doesn't no matter what people want to believe about themselves.

 

[noonereal]

Well. I have been in that position and I did the right thing, as have millions upon millions before me.

What is the point of self preservation if you can't or won't do the right thing.

I'd rather not. It's illogical.

Bull ****in shit,

 

[NolanVoyd]

Bull ****in shit,

What are you talking about?

You realize that most people do the right thing, even when there is high risk right?

The cowards are the minority.

Surely you understand that.

 

[Mr Person]

I think morals is very high on the list.

I do not think it moves ahead of self preservation.

In fact, I know it doesn't no matter what people want to believe about themselves.

It all comes down to the bet. Does fighting Russia provoke MAD, or not?

 

[MaryP]

He really does seem to want the old USSR back in every way.

I continue to be torn between grudging acceptance of wise geopoitical strategy in the cold hard world we live in and the moral command to stop this all. It's a horrible choice.

If I were president and I order troops in on the moral mandate, I bet the lives of over 8,000,000,000 that the resulting conflict would not result in MAD realizing its potential. I might simultaneously lose all the allies I'd need to keep all the supply lines functioning. Russia's army is getting its ass kicked in Ukraine. It could not possibly withstand us. It would be one of those bets that's not all-in for us, but is either all-in or fold for the opponent. But it's not poker. All-in is nuclear war.

Yet, as I stay my hand, innocents are murdered, tortured, and forcibly relocated to Russia where they will be effectively conscripted into Putin's brand of Stalinization, ie:

Mariupol mayor says 31,000 residents deported at 'gunpoint' to Russian 'filtration camps,' evacuations stalled

https://news.yahoo.com/mariupol-mayor-says-31-000-124419266.html The mayor of the besieged city of Mariupol said that roughly 31,000 residents have been forcibly deported and sent to Russian "filtration camps" in occupied eastern Ukraine. Mayor Vadym Boychenko said in a Telegram post Friday...

debatepolitics.com

(That is, if not in the army, they would have to at least act like they agree fully with the administration or face disappearance. Hell, he very well might simply kill them all and say they were allowed to go where they wanted and simply weren't heard from).




What to do?

The leaders of the West and President Zelensky are bearing a heavy load on their shoulders.

In that famous shot of Zelensky in Bucha, I immediately thought of that. He knows that his refusal to give Russia what it wants caused that. At least partly. It doesn't matter if he is right or wrong, it still is on his shoulders.

 

[noonereal]

What are you talking about?

You realize that most people do the right thing, even when there is high risk right?

The cowards are the minority.

Surely you understand that.

Bullshit. Complete bullshit.
It is rare someone places another before themselves. Even at the God damned ice cream stand.

 

[noonereal]

It all comes down to the bet. Does fighting Russia provoke MAD, or not?

Putin will not lose. If we push him he will turn to Armageddon before defeat.
Joe knows this.

If this were not the case, it is now very clear, we could shove Russia any way we wanted conventionally. Putin is no more challenge than wasIraq.

 

[Cardinal]

Bullshit. Complete bullshit.
It is rare someone places another before themselves. Even at the God damned ice cream stand.

You didn't get the G.I. Joe with the kung fu grip for Christmas when you were a kid, did you.

 

[Vern]

The idea of Russians turning on each other seems fun for a second or two, until you realize that the people they're turning on are moderates, and it ain't the moderates with institutional power. This means that as the Russian people become more militarily radicalized, we can expect ever greater horrors from that country. Russia is entering a period of darkness not seen since Stalin, and the need for NATO will be greater than ever.

"Russians who support the war against Ukraine are starting to turn on the enemy within, enabled by new laws that criminalize dissent. There are reports of students turning in teachers and people telling on neighbors and even diners at the next table.

Marina Dubrova, an English teacher on the Russian island of Sakhalin in the Pacific, showed an uplifting YouTube video to her eighth-grade class last month in which children, in Russian and Ukrainian, sing about a “world without war.”

After she played it, a group of girls stayed behind during recess and quizzed her on her views.

“Ukraine is a separate country, a separate one,” Ms. Dubrova, 57, told them.

“No longer,” one of the girls shot back.

A few days later, the police came to her school in the port town of Korsakov. In court, she heard a recording of that conversation, apparently made by one of the students. The judge handed down a $400 fine for “publicly discrediting” Russia’s Armed Forces. The school fired her, she said, for “amoral behavior.”

Spurred by Putin, Russians Turn on One Another Over the War (Published 2022)

Citizens are denouncing one another, illustrating how the war is feeding paranoia and polarization in Russian society.

www.nytimes.com

If I remember correctly Putin also offered to pay the legal fees of anybody who assaults someone for not supporting the war.

 

[MTAtech]

I am not torn. The world is hell, always was, always will be.

Ukraine is not in Nato, Ukraine is not in our sphere of influence. This is black and white. Morals have no place for consideration here.

That’s how Chamberlain thought. Then, the evil dictator took more and countries and began bombing London.

Does anyone doubt Putin has eyes on Poland and the other former Soviet block? When Putin invades Poland, the same mindset will argue that we don’t want to risk a nuclear war and let Putin keep Poland.

 

[noonereal]

You didn't get the G.I. Joe with the kung fu grip for Christmas when you were a kid, did you.

Funny how you feel compelled to ridicule those who see the world in its true colors.