Spurred by Putin, Russians Turn on One Another Over the War

[Cardinal]

The idea of Russians turning on each other seems fun for a second or two, until you realize that the people they're turning on are moderates, and it ain't the moderates with institutional power. This means that as the Russian people become more militarily radicalized, we can expect ever greater horrors from that country. Russia is entering a period of darkness not seen since Stalin, and the need for NATO will be greater than ever.

"Russians who support the war against Ukraine are starting to turn on the enemy within, enabled by new laws that criminalize dissent. There are reports of students turning in teachers and people telling on neighbors and even diners at the next table.

Marina Dubrova, an English teacher on the Russian island of Sakhalin in the Pacific, showed an uplifting YouTube video to her eighth-grade class last month in which children, in Russian and Ukrainian, sing about a “world without war.”

After she played it, a group of girls stayed behind during recess and quizzed her on her views.

“Ukraine is a separate country, a separate one,” Ms. Dubrova, 57, told them.

“No longer,” one of the girls shot back.

A few days later, the police came to her school in the port town of Korsakov. In court, she heard a recording of that conversation, apparently made by one of the students. The judge handed down a $400 fine for “publicly discrediting” Russia’s Armed Forces. The school fired her, she said, for “amoral behavior.”

Spurred by Putin, Russians Turn on One Another Over the War (Published 2022)

Citizens are denouncing one another, illustrating how the war is feeding paranoia and polarization in Russian society.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Mr Person]

He really does seem to want the old USSR back in every way.

I continue to be torn between grudging acceptance of wise geopoitical strategy in the cold hard world we live in and the moral command to stop this all. It's a horrible choice.

If I were president and I order troops in on the moral mandate, I bet the lives of over 8,000,000,000 that the resulting conflict would not result in MAD realizing its potential. I might simultaneously lose all the allies I'd need to keep all the supply lines functioning. Russia's army is getting its ass kicked in Ukraine. It could not possibly withstand us. It would be one of those bets that's not all-in for us, but is either all-in or fold for the opponent. But it's not poker. All-in is nuclear war.

Yet, as I stay my hand, innocents are murdered, tortured, and forcibly relocated to Russia where they will be effectively conscripted into Putin's brand of Stalinization, ie:

Mariupol mayor says 31,000 residents deported at 'gunpoint' to Russian 'filtration camps,' evacuations stalled

https://news.yahoo.com/mariupol-mayor-says-31-000-124419266.html The mayor of the besieged city of Mariupol said that roughly 31,000 residents have been forcibly deported and sent to Russian "filtration camps" in occupied eastern Ukraine. Mayor Vadym Boychenko said in a Telegram post Friday...

debatepolitics.com

(That is, if not in the army, they would have to at least act like they agree fully with the administration or face disappearance. Hell, he very well might simply kill them all and say they were allowed to go where they wanted and simply weren't heard from).




What to do?

 

[noonereal]

He really does seem to want the old USSR back in every way.

I continue to be torn between grudging acceptance of wise geopoitical strategy in the cold hard world we live in and the moral command to stop this all. It's a horrible choice.

If I were president and I order troops in on the moral mandate, I bet the lives of over 8,000,000,000 that the resulting conflict would not result in MAD realizing its potential. I might simultaneously lose all the allies I'd need to keep all the supply lines functioning. Russia's army is getting its ass kicked in Ukraine. It could not possibly withstand us. It would be one of those bets that's not all-in for us, but is either all-in or fold for the opponent. But it's not poker. All-in is nuclear war.

Yet, as I stay my hand, innocents are murdered, tortured, and forcibly relocated to Russia where they will be effectively conscripted into Putin's brand of Stalinization, ie:

Mariupol mayor says 31,000 residents deported at 'gunpoint' to Russian 'filtration camps,' evacuations stalled

https://news.yahoo.com/mariupol-mayor-says-31-000-124419266.html The mayor of the besieged city of Mariupol said that roughly 31,000 residents have been forcibly deported and sent to Russian "filtration camps" in occupied eastern Ukraine. Mayor Vadym Boychenko said in a Telegram post Friday...

debatepolitics.com

(That is, if not in the army, they would have to at least act like they agree fully with the administration or face disappearance. Hell, he very well might simply kill them all and say they were allowed to go where they wanted and simply weren't heard from).




What to do?

I am not torn. The world is hell, always was, always will be.

Ukraine is not in Nato, Ukraine is not in our sphere of influence. This is black and white. Morals have no place for consideration here.

 

[NolanVoyd]

I am not torn. The world is hell, always was, always will be.

Ukraine is not in Nato, Ukraine is not in our sphere of influence. This is black and white. Morals have no place for consideration here.

Of course morals play a role.

Ignoring evil is evil.

 

[noonereal]

Of course morals play a role.

Ignoring evil is evil.

It does not matter.

Rule one, self preservation. It comes before evil or morals.

Hey, I get it. People don't think in logical emotionless terms.

 

[Cardinal]

He really does seem to want the old USSR back in every way.

I continue to be torn between grudging acceptance of wise geopoitical strategy in the cold hard world we live in and the moral command to stop this all. It's a horrible choice.

If I were president and I order troops in on the moral mandate, I bet the lives of over 8,000,000,000 that the resulting conflict would not result in MAD realizing its potential. I might simultaneously lose all the allies I'd need to keep all the supply lines functioning. Russia's army is getting its ass kicked in Ukraine. It could not possibly withstand us. It would be one of those bets that's not all-in for us, but is either all-in or fold for the opponent. But it's not poker. All-in is nuclear war.

Yet, as I stay my hand, innocents are murdered, tortured, and forcibly relocated to Russia where they will be effectively conscripted into Putin's brand of Stalinization, ie:

Mariupol mayor says 31,000 residents deported at 'gunpoint' to Russian 'filtration camps,' evacuations stalled

https://news.yahoo.com/mariupol-mayor-says-31-000-124419266.html The mayor of the besieged city of Mariupol said that roughly 31,000 residents have been forcibly deported and sent to Russian "filtration camps" in occupied eastern Ukraine. Mayor Vadym Boychenko said in a Telegram post Friday...

debatepolitics.com

(That is, if not in the army, they would have to at least act like they agree fully with the administration or face disappearance. Hell, he very well might simply kill them all and say they were allowed to go where they wanted and simply weren't heard from).




What to do?

What's happened to Russia as a society is really not, in and of itself, the worst part.

We saw how just four years under Trump corrupted the soul of our country. Russia's social fabric has experienced Putin's corrupting influence for 22 years.

What we're seeing take place in Russia right now isn't something that's taking place in a faraway land; it's our future if we don't somehow fix our democracy.

 

[Cardinal]

I am not torn. The world is hell, always was, always will be.

Ukraine is not in Nato, Ukraine is not in our sphere of influence. This is black and white. Morals have no place for consideration here.

The notion that morals have no place for consideration is a product of total moral decay.

 

[NolanVoyd]

It does not matter.

Rule one, self preservation. It comes before evil or morals.

Hey, I get it. People don't think in logical emotionless terms.

I couldn't disagree more.

Morals always matter. No point in self preservation if you can't do the right thing.

 

[Cardinal]

I couldn't disagree more.

Morals always matter. No point in self preservation if you can't do the right thing.

One could technically make an argument for temporarily abandoning morality for the purpose of surviving to see a better world later. It's not an argument I like, but there's a logical utility to it. But that's not the argument noonereal makes. As he said, "The world is hell, always was, always will be."

Nonone's vision of a world is one that's permanently shrouded in darkness.

 

[AmNat]

The idea of Russians turning on each other seems fun for a second or two, until you realize that the people they're turning on are moderates, and it ain't the moderates with institutional power. This means that as the Russian people become more militarily radicalized, we can expect ever greater horrors from that country. Russia is entering a period of darkness not seen since Stalin, and the need for NATO will be greater than ever.

"Russians who support the war against Ukraine are starting to turn on the enemy within, enabled by new laws that criminalize dissent. There are reports of students turning in teachers and people telling on neighbors and even diners at the next table.

Marina Dubrova, an English teacher on the Russian island of Sakhalin in the Pacific, showed an uplifting YouTube video to her eighth-grade class last month in which children, in Russian and Ukrainian, sing about a “world without war.”

After she played it, a group of girls stayed behind during recess and quizzed her on her views.

“Ukraine is a separate country, a separate one,” Ms. Dubrova, 57, told them.

“No longer,” one of the girls shot back.

A few days later, the police came to her school in the port town of Korsakov. In court, she heard a recording of that conversation, apparently made by one of the students. The judge handed down a $400 fine for “publicly discrediting” Russia’s Armed Forces. The school fired her, she said, for “amoral behavior.”

Spurred by Putin, Russians Turn on One Another Over the War (Published 2022)

Citizens are denouncing one another, illustrating how the war is feeding paranoia and polarization in Russian society.

www.nytimes.com

It's great to see Russia finally doing something about its fifth columnists. Only a foolish nation would allow its enemies to teach its children.

I'm not a fan of the Chinese government, but I have to admit they've done better than the Russians on this issue; open liberals are not allowed to serve in positions of status or importance in China. Russia has been far too tolerant in this regard.

 

[Cardinal]

It's great to see Russia finally doing something about its fifth columnists. Only a foolish nation would allow its enemies to teach its children.

I'm not a fan of the Chinese government, but I have to admit they've done better than the Russians on this issue; open liberals are not allowed to serve in positions of status or importance in China. Russia has been far too tolerant in this regard.

I think I merit a higher class of trolling, thank you very much.

 

[Tbird19482]

one thing we should be worried about is Putin getting desperate and not thinking about the consequences and doing something stupid like pushing the " Button "
if he starts to feel the pressure and cracks he could very well start WWIII and once the Button is pushed there is no going back
Have a nice day

 

[RAMOSS]

I am not torn. The world is hell, always was, always will be.

Ukraine is not in Nato, Ukraine is not in our sphere of influence. This is black and white. Morals have no place for consideration here.

The thing is, Russia would not stop at the Urkaine. Russia would keep on pushing. On Russian propganda media, it's stated goal is to destroy the west. (That's from Russia controlled media). As such, it is easier to have it bogged down in the Urkaine and use up it's resources there than have to deal with it as it gobbles up more and more countries.

 

[Plasmaball]

Reminds me of the don't say gay bill...

Just saying...the right and putin walking hand and hand.

 

[NolanVoyd]

One could technically make an argument for temporarily abandoning morality for the purpose of surviving to see a better world later. It's not an argument I like, but there's a logical utility to it. But that's not the argument noonereal makes. As he said, "The world is hell, always was, always will be."

Nonone's vision of a world is one that's permanently shrouded in darkness.

I have always felt that doing the right thing is the logical path even at great personal risk. Because not doing the right thing, living as a coward who tolerates evil, is a life not worth living. And in the aggregate creates a world that no one can be proud of.

"Evil thrives when good men do nothing". I won't contribute to that, no matter the risk.

And to quote Emiliano Zapata "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."

 

[RAMOSS]

Reminds me of the don't say gay bill...

Just saying...the right and putin walking hand and hand.

Cpac have Orban as a key note speaker when they meet in Hungary next month.

 

[Mr Person]

What's happened to Russia as a society is really not, in and of itself, the worst part.

We saw how just four years under Trump corrupted the soul of our country. Russia's social fabric has experienced Putin's corrupting influence for 22 years.

What we're seeing take place in Russia right now isn't something that's taking place in a faraway land; it's our future if we don't somehow fix our democracy.

Oh, yes, we have been in agreement on this just about since I got here.

Which was a few months after Trump declared candidacy, I vaguely think. (Time estimation is shot to shit these days)

 

[Mr Person]

I am not torn. The world is hell, always was, always will be.

Ukraine is not in Nato, Ukraine is not in our sphere of influence. This is black and white. Morals have no place for consideration here.

Morality irrelevant, selfish and immediate geopolitical interest first. ok.

If Germany announced it was going to exterminate all its Jewish people, Gypsys, etc., but didn't try to conquer Europe..... would you have said that? You would you really be comfortable sitting on your hands going "somebody's else's problem"?

We can't intervene everywhere, but there have to be lines. It's not just moral mandate. There's self-interest, too: it is in our interest to have any red lines we draw in the future be respected, and there's one way to do that.



No, Ukraine is not in our "sphere of influence." But Russia does great evil, and even if Ukraine giving up some land doesn't mean anything relative to our geopolitical interests, there is always the question of what it may do next if we don't stop it in its tracks. Take everything but NATO? Then what, proxy war hell from the last century again inflicts the non-US/Europe world?

It's far from black and white. It's grey against grey, and the lighting is doing the same damn thing it did with that meme dress a couple of years ago (the one that depending on how much of the rest of the shot was in the picture, you would see either shaded white and gold, or blue and a darker sort of gold; keep the windows and sun glare, it's white/gold generally. Zero in it's more blue/darker gold)

 

[noonereal]

The notion that morals have no place for consideration is a product of total moral decay.

Hogwash.

What comes first, survival or morals?

Morals has its place but not at the top of the pole. Plus, as stated previous by another, morals are specific to culture. There is no universality to what they even are.

 

[bongsaway]

The idea of Russians turning on each other seems fun for a second or two, until you realize that the people they're turning on are moderates, and it ain't the moderates with institutional power. This means that as the Russian people become more militarily radicalized, we can expect ever greater horrors from that country. Russia is entering a period of darkness not seen since Stalin, and the need for NATO will be greater than ever.

"Russians who support the war against Ukraine are starting to turn on the enemy within, enabled by new laws that criminalize dissent. There are reports of students turning in teachers and people telling on neighbors and even diners at the next table.

Marina Dubrova, an English teacher on the Russian island of Sakhalin in the Pacific, showed an uplifting YouTube video to her eighth-grade class last month in which children, in Russian and Ukrainian, sing about a “world without war.”

After she played it, a group of girls stayed behind during recess and quizzed her on her views.

“Ukraine is a separate country, a separate one,” Ms. Dubrova, 57, told them.

“No longer,” one of the girls shot back.

A few days later, the police came to her school in the port town of Korsakov. In court, she heard a recording of that conversation, apparently made by one of the students. The judge handed down a $400 fine for “publicly discrediting” Russia’s Armed Forces. The school fired her, she said, for “amoral behavior.”

Spurred by Putin, Russians Turn on One Another Over the War (Published 2022)

Citizens are denouncing one another, illustrating how the war is feeding paranoia and polarization in Russian society.

www.nytimes.com

And the base of the gop has no idea this is what they are supporting in their own country.

 

[Cardinal]

Hogwash.

What comes first, survival or morals?

Morals has its place but not at the top of the pole. Plus, as stated previous by another, morals are specific to culture. There is no universality to what they even are.

Who hurt you?

 

[noonereal]

I couldn't disagree more.

Morals always matter. No point in self preservation if you can't do the right thing.

I doubt this would be your direction if confronted by serious injury or death directly. It's goes against human nature.

 

[noonereal]

The thing is, Russia would not stop at the Urkaine. Russia would keep on pushing. On Russian propganda media, it's stated goal is to destroy the west. (That's from Russia controlled media). As such, it is easier to have it bogged down in the Urkaine and use up it's resources there than have to deal with it as it gobbles up more and more countries.

Russia may well have gone into Poland had it been successful in Ukraine. It has not been successful and because of Joe, Putin now knows Nato is united.
Putin is going nowhere near Nato, now. That is no longer a concern. We, Joe that is, has played this perfectly. This chess match with Putin.

I am not advocating isolationism, I am simply refusing to allow emotion to make a poor decision.

 

[RAMOSS]

Russia may well have gone into Poland had it been successful in Ukraine. It has not been successful and because of Joe, Putin now knows Nato is united.
Putin is going nowhere near Nato, now. That is no longer a concern. We, Joe that is, has played this perfectly. This chess match with Putin.

I am not advocating isolationism, I am simply refusing to allow emotion to make a poor decision.

I do not want a direct conflict between the west and putin atm. I do agree with giving the Ukraine military arms until Russia is out of all of Ukraine

 

[noonereal]

Morality irrelevant, selfish and immediate geopolitical interest first. ok.

If Germany announced it was going to exterminate all its Jewish people, Gypsys, etc., but didn't try to conquer Europe..... would you have said that? You would you really be comfortable sitting on your hands going "somebody's else's problem"?

We can't intervene everywhere, but there have to be lines. It's not just moral mandate. There's self-interest, too: it is in our interest to have any red lines we draw in the future be respected, and there's one way to do that.



No, Ukraine is not in our "sphere of influence." But Russia does great evil, and even if Ukraine giving up some land doesn't mean anything relative to our geopolitical interests, there is always the question of what it may do next if we don't stop it in its tracks. Take everything but NATO? Then what, proxy war hell from the last century again inflicts the non-US/Europe world?

It's far from black and white. It's grey against grey, and the lighting is doing the same damn thing it did with that meme dress a couple of years ago (the one that depending on how much of the rest of the shot was in the picture, you would see either shaded white and gold, or blue and a darker sort of gold; keep the windows and sun glare, it's white/gold generally. Zero in it's more blue/darker gold)

You said it! You agree with me. We can't intervene everywhere. We have to set lines. We have. NATO IS the line. Especially as this is not in our sphere.