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South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

You could always move.

True. But I can just as easily ignore the majority of people around me, which is what I do. It works well enough for me. I am reasonably happy and I do well enough for myself that I have my needs covered and I couldn't think of what to ask for for christmas (which means my wants are largely covered too). :shrug:
 
No more like color you stupid if you believe the civil war was fought solely because of slavery.

Except no one has said that, but you.
 
That is of course how you wish to take it. But just because you wish to take it that way does not mean that it actually IS that way. That is in essence one of the biggest problem now adays when it comes to racism. When it comes to racism people don't just read what they want into what people say or do. It seems that they have a NEED to read what what they want into what people say and do. And it is the biggest thing that keeps racism alive and kicking.

Actually the same could be said for your argument. Either way it is not so much for me about outward racism. The whole thing (while I am certain most Southerners don't care one way or the other) is tainted by the racist undercurrent.

The thing that keeps racism alive is racists. I mean between Azatlan, Black Panthers, White Supremacists etc. Do you really want to say suspecting racism is the main reason? Not really.

Oh sure they will of course deny what I just said. Either because they don't realize the truth of it or they do but just don't want to seem racist themselves. Understandable I suppose. Unfortenate, but understandable.

No one will deny it is part of the reason. It is doing nothing but widening the racial divide. It is not how ever the main cause or even a large one.

In anycase the south pulled away from the Union for reasons other than slavery. Their main gripe was taxes IIRC. While slavery might have been a part of the reasons it was not the biggest reason. You seem to think that the north wanted the south to end slavery and that was the main reason for the civil war. It wasn't. Indeed ole' Lincoln had stated before the war and even towards the begining of it that he would do anything to keep the union together, including keeping slavery around.

I don't "seem" to think anything. Nothing I have typed would lead anyone to think what you said about my statements.

Slavery was one of the biggest issues, but not the only one. No one has said otherwise. It was however one of the major reasons and should include the abolitionist movement.

#1 Economic and social differences between the North and the South.
#2 States versus federal rights.
#3 The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.
#4 Growth of the Abolition Movement.
#5 The election of Lincoln.

The fact is, it is nothing to be proud of or celebrate.
 
The 1st Amendment gets in the way doesn't it?

That doesn't make it right. By the 1st Amednment the nazis could do what they want to as I explained in my example. My post was attacking celebrating the confederacy.
 
Actually the same could be said for your argument. Either way it is not so much for me about outward racism. The whole thing (while I am certain most Southerners don't care one way or the other) is tainted by the racist undercurrent.

No the thing couldn't be said the same for my arguement because it is not my arguement. What I said before is what one of the people setting up one of the events said. Since it comes from the person that is helping set things up I would have to say that his arguement about what the celebration is about trumps both what you and I may "think" that it is about.

The thing that keeps racism alive is racists. I mean between Azatlan, Black Panthers, White Supremacists etc. Do you really want to say suspecting racism is the main reason? Not really.

No one will deny it is part of the reason. It is doing nothing but widening the racial divide. It is not how ever the main cause or even a large one.

Sorry I did not mean to imply that it was the main reason. I meant that it was one of the reasons. I also believe that statistics that mention race (white, black, hispanic etc etc) helps keep racism alive if that gives you an idea of where I am coming from.

I don't "seem" to think anything. Nothing I have typed would lead anyone to think what you said about my statements.

Slavery was one of the biggest issues, but not the only one. No one has said otherwise. It was however one of the major reasons and should include the abolitionist movement.

#1 Economic and social differences between the North and the South.
#2 States versus federal rights.
#3 The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.
#4 Growth of the Abolition Movement.
#5 The election of Lincoln.

The fact is, it is nothing to be proud of or celebrate.

It depends on what part of it you are celebrating. These people are celebrating your #2 reason. They are not celebrating any of the others. Celebrating part of something despite the rest of what may be attached to what you are celebrating happens all the time. For example George Washington Day. We celebrate the man but not everything about him. For example we do not celebrate him because he was a slave owner (which he was) we celebrate him because he was our first President and among the first to sign the Constitution of the USA. So just because something bad is a part of something good doesn't mean that they can't be mutually exclusive.
 
No more like color you stupid if you believe the civil war was fought solely because of slavery.

It was. If you read my previous post, my proof was the Declarations of Secession, made by the various Southern states. Every one of those declarations gave slavery, and the attempt by the North to end the practice, as the sole reason for secession. You can call this a battle over states rights if you want to, but the real reason for the Civil War (slavery) is part of the historical record, and in the writing of those who seceeded. There is no way to dumb this down, or rewrite history. It is all in the historical record, in black and white.
 
No the thing couldn't be said the same for my arguement because it is not my arguement. What I said before is what one of the people setting up one of the events said. Since it comes from the person that is helping set things up I would have to say that his arguement about what the celebration is about trumps both what you and I may "think" that it is about.

And people lie, so what?

Sorry I did not mean to imply that it was the main reason. I meant that it was one of the reasons. I also believe that statistics that mention race (white, black, hispanic etc etc) helps keep racism alive if that gives you an idea of where I am coming from.

I understand and agree.

It depends on what part of it you are celebrating. These people are celebrating your #2 reason. They are not celebrating any of the others. Celebrating part of something despite the rest of what may be attached to what you are celebrating happens all the time. For example George Washington Day. We celebrate the man but not everything about him. For example we do not celebrate him because he was a slave owner (which he was) we celebrate him because he was our first President and among the first to sign the Constitution of the USA. So just because something bad is a part of something good doesn't mean that they can't be mutually exclusive.

It is a chain of events inseparable and connected forever in infamy. I mean it's OK if they want to celebrate the reason or reasons for a lost war with no redeeming value, no value that I can see anyway.
 
No more like color you stupid if you believe the civil war was fought solely because of slavery.

Tell us, what else was it about? Economic determination? The South's economy was overly reliant on slavery. Different culture? The South's culture was dependent on slavery. The main cause of declaration for Southern secession was slavery as proven by every single declaration issued, the words of the Confederate President and the writings of pro-slavery confederates at the time.
 
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I think they are celebrating (or at least they say) the actual secession of the 11 states. Like it is more about states rights.

Like I said how can you celebrate secession during the civil war with know mention of one of it's main causes.

It's probably more of a commemoration than a celebration.

Leave it to the lamestream media to protray southerners as anything, other than white, pro-Confederate, pro-slavery and racist. Gotta keep that image alive. It's good political ammo in future elections and, it's politically correct.
 
It's probably more of a commemoration than a celebration.

Leave it to the lamestream media to protray southerners as anything, other than white, pro-Confederate, pro-slavery and racist. Gotta keep that image alive. It's good political ammo in future elections and, it's politically correct.

That's some lame spin.

"We are having drinks and a dance to commemorate fighting for slavery!"
 
Tell us, what else was it about? Economic determination? The South's economy was overly reliant on slavery. Different culture? The South's culture was dependent on slavery. The main cause of declaration for Southern secession was slavery as proven by every single declaration issued, the words of the Confederate President and the writings of pro-slavery confederates at the time.

It was fought for states rights. The right of a state to determine it's own destiny.

It was about property rights. "If, today, the government can take our slaves, where does it end?". The reason that most people can't see that, is that the extent of their education about the period, are the articles of seccesion. Replace, "slavery", with, "2nd Amendment". Would that mean that the Civil War was fought purely so people could own guns, or was it fought to protect all constitutional rights?

Slavery's days were numbered. Mechinization would have ended slavery in another 10 years and everyone knew it and it didn't take a war, billions of dollars in destroyed property and a half million lives to make that happen.

The, "it's all about slavery", crowd probably set the American black community back by 50 years, or more with the anomosity that was created in the Reconstruction South.
 
That's some lame spin.

"We are having drinks and a dance to commemorate fighting for slavery!"

That's because you think it's all about slavery.

Less than 1% of all Southerners and even fewer Confederate soldiers owned slaves.

But, hey, let's don't let historical facts get in our way.
 
That's because you think it's all about slavery.

Less than 1% of all Southerners and even fewer Confederate soldiers owned slaves.

But, hey, let's don't let historical facts get in our way.

I never said it was all about slavery. Tariffs were a big part of it too. If you weren't so quick to point out the the "1%" who were also the wealthy and politically influential that got the slave issue into the various State's letters of Secession, you would have pointed out this much more significant "historical fact".
 
It was fought for states rights. The right of a state to determine it's own destiny.

It was about property rights. "If, today, the government can take our slaves, where does it end?". The reason that most people can't see that, is that the extent of their education about the period, are the articles of seccesion. Replace, "slavery", with, "2nd Amendment". Would that mean that the Civil War was fought purely so people could own guns, or was it fought to protect all constitutional rights?

"Property rights"???

You are killing me. :lol: People aren't property. It's sad that you would defend anyone at any time who thought otherwise.

Slavery's days were numbered. Mechinization would have ended slavery in another 10 years and everyone knew it and it didn't take a war, billions of dollars in destroyed property and a half million lives to make that happen.

The, "it's all about slavery", crowd probably set the American black community back by 50 years, or more with the anomosity that was created in the Reconstruction South.

The Reconstruction South? Oh yeah, I looked into that before. That's when Republicans elected many black people. Then they stopped. Why?
 
It was fought for states rights. The right of a state to determine it's own destiny.

Specifically, the right of a state to enslave other human beings.

Claiming the Civil War was fought over state's rights or tarriffs is a loathsome attempt to obfuscate the primary motivation for the South's bid for independence.

Slavery's days were numbered. Mechinization would have ended slavery in another 10 years and everyone knew it and it didn't take a war, billions of dollars in destroyed property and a half million lives to make that happen.

Ten years is an arbitrary number you pulled right our of your ass. If you want to blame anyone for the Civil War blame the Southern aristocracy for starting it to preserve the South's slave based economy. The Reconstruction era accelerated the enfranchisement of blacks and the granting of full civil rights to them.
 
That's because you think it's all about slavery.

Less than 1% of all Southerners and even fewer Confederate soldiers owned slaves.

But, hey, let's don't let historical facts get in our way.

The Southern aristocracy controlled the South and the Democratic party in the South. The South used a slave based economy.

This isn't the first time the wealthy elite have convinced the ignorant masses to fight against their own interests. What's particularly galling is that 150 years later you still have ignorant yokels buying into those dusty old rationalizations.
 
It was fought for states rights. The right of a state to determine it's own destiny.

It was about property rights. "If, today, the government can take our slaves, where does it end?". The reason that most people can't see that, is that the extent of their education about the period, are the articles of seccesion. Replace, "slavery", with, "2nd Amendment". Would that mean that the Civil War was fought purely so people could own guns, or was it fought to protect all constitutional rights?

Slavery's days were numbered. Mechinization would have ended slavery in another 10 years and everyone knew it and it didn't take a war, billions of dollars in destroyed property and a half million lives to make that happen.

The, "it's all about slavery", crowd probably set the American black community back by 50 years, or more with the anomosity that was created in the Reconstruction South.

No it wasn't. The declarations of secession by the various Southern states explicitly state it was because of slavery. Period.
 
I'm curious about something. What history are white people allowed to celebrate without recrimination. Should white people celebrate black history or the accomplishments of La Raza.

Remember that assimilation is dead. There is only multiculturalism in which each identity group has its own culture and identity. So what identity should white people celebrate?
 
I'm curious about something. What history are white people allowed to celebrate without recrimination. Should white people celebrate black history or the accomplishments of La Raza.

Remember that assimilation is dead. There is only multiculturalism in which each identity group has its own culture and identity. So what identity should white people celebrate?

That is a straw man if I ever saw one. White people can celebrate white history all they want. However, celebrating the Civil War is not celebrating white history. It is upholding the view that it is OK to regard black people as property instead of human beings. Personally, if I were celebrating white history, I would not want to include the Confederacy as part of it. That would be totally embarrassing to me. But some people still do. The last time I talked to someone who held that view to heart, it was during a gig I played in Camilla, Texas. The guy who said it was part of the Camilla Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Yea, they are still around, and they still spew that same dumb old crap about white history being politically incorrect, while black history is revered.

Also, whites DO celebrate white history. I am half Irish, so celebrate Irish history. I am also half Jewish, so celebrate Jewish history. Italians celebrate Italian history, Poles celebrate Polish history, French celebrate their many military defeats and surrenders :mrgreen:, etc. etc. However, blacks don't have a national pride to celebrate, since their identities were all stripped from them, when they were kidnapped from their various nations and tribes. Therefore, they can only celebrate black history, instead of Ethiopian, Ghanan, and other national and tribal histories. DUH!! However, racists here in Texas still play it as black history vs. white history, which is about as dishonestly and blatantly racist as you can get. It's all about the hate, folks. That's all it is.
 
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That is a straw man if I ever saw one. White people can celebrate white history all they want. However, celebrating the Civil War is not celebrating white history. It is upholding the view that it is OK to regard black people as property instead of human beings. Personally, if I were celebrating white history, I would not want to include the Confederacy as part of it. That would be totally embarrassing to me. But some people still do. The last time I talked to someone who held that view to heart, it was during a gig I played in Camilla, Texas. The guy who said it was part of the Camilla Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Yea, they are still around, and they still spew that same dumb old crap about white history being politically incorrect, while black history is revered.

Also, whites DO celebrate white history. I am half Irish, so celebrate Irish history. I am also half Jewish, so celebrate Jewish history. Italians celebrate Italian history, Poles celebrate Polish history, French celebrate their many military defeats and surrenders :mrgreen:, etc. etc. However, blacks don't have a national pride to celebrate, since their identities were all stripped from them, when they were kidnapped from their various nations and tribes. Therefore, they can only celebrate black history, instead of Ethiopian, Ghanan, and other national and tribal histories. DUH!! However, racists here in Texas still play it as black history vs. white history, which is about as dishonestly and blatantly racist as you can get. It's all about the hate, folks. That's all it is.

What role does the white genocide of American Indians play in the celebration of the white history to which you refer? What role does White Privilege play in the celebration of the white history to which you refer?
What about the white Californians who murdered Indians, and murdered Mexicans? What about the white oppression that caused the Watts Riots?

For some reason you have a hard on for white southerners. I don't know why. But the very things that damn white southerners damn all white people.

So all of white history is murderous by the standards to which you hold white southerners.

Irish history isn't pan-european white american history. Jewish history is not pan-european white american history. I can remember when Jews were marginalized. They weren't part of that identity.

So holding you to your standard, no white american identity should be celebrated. Ok, works for me. I like Chinese people better than whites any way. :)
 
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It was fought for states rights. The right of a state to determine it's own destiny.

Determine its own destiny? Why don't you pick up a book called 'Gorgias'. It's by Plato. It explains that no matter how much you cover a point in rhetoric, facts will always defeat you in the end. The reality is that the facts show that the states had 1 reason for seccession, and that was the preservation of slavery as an institution.

It was about property rights. "If, today, the government can take our slaves, where does it end?". The reason that most people can't see that, is that the extent of their education about the period, are the articles of seccesion. Replace, "slavery", with, "2nd Amendment". Would that mean that the Civil War was fought purely so people could own guns, or was it fought to protect all constitutional rights?

Where does what end? That's not a very convincing argument. If anything it shows how weak your case is. You are saying that slavery was argued for on the basis that by losing it, they'd lose 'other rights'. However, owning slaves was never a right held by the state. It was a convention. There is a difference.

Slavery's days were numbered. Mechinization would have ended slavery in another 10 years and everyone knew it and it didn't take a war, billions of dollars in destroyed property and a half million lives to make that happen.

The, "it's all about slavery", crowd probably set the American black community back by 50 years, or more with the anomosity that was created in the Reconstruction South.

The kind of mental abortion you have posted above is not worth replying to. Pick up a history book why don't you? The South had absolutely NO intention of giving up slavery because of mechanization. Mechanized farm work would not even appear for another 50 years. Are you this f'n ignorant of history?
 
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What role does the white genocide of American Indians play in the celebration of the white history to which you refer? What role does White Privilege play in the celebration of the white history to which you refer?
What about the white Californians who murdered Indians, and murdered Mexicans? What about the white oppression that caused the Watts Riots?

For some reason you have a hard on for white southerners. I don't know why. But the very things that damn white southerners damn all white people.

So all of white history is murderous by the standards to which you hold white southerners.

Irish history isn't pan-european white american history. Jewish history is not pan-european white american history. I can remember when Jews were marginalized. They weren't part of that identity.

So holding you to your standard, no white american identity should be celebrated. Ok, works for me. I like Chinese people better than whites any way. :)

The problem with these Southerners in question is that they want to celebrate the ugly part of their history. Good grief, they lost, it's time they create a new legacy instead of being stuck in the ugly past.
 
The problem with these Southerners in question is that they want to celebrate the ugly part of their history. Good grief, they lost, it's time they create a new legacy instead of being stuck in the ugly past.

The worst part about it is that a lot of those supporting this celebration are the biggest defenders of all that which is 'American'. Apparently, it hasn't dawned on them that celebrating the time the South tried to split from America is.... well.... un-American. We don't go out with ribbons on the street celebrating the time the Japanese attacked us. The Japanese don't celebrate Pearl Harbor. Germans don't celebrate attacking Poland. Seems to me like all this bull**** about celebrating 'Southern Heritage' is nothing more than an excuse.
 
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If you have ever spent much time in the rural south you find that the racism we seldom see and I never saw as a kid in Southern California. Many people in the South live in the past.

Sorry but I have seen it close up in Mississippi, and Louisiana having once lived and been relate to Southerners for a long time. As I see it the more educated the less racist people tended to be.

People who are complaining about our Celebration of our Independence, from England and the tyranny of King George (No not that George) fail to understand that we are focusing on the positive not those who suffered.

It would be like complaining that we can't celebrate Thanksgiving because so many people died prior to that first celebration.

It's a celebration of life and the joy of being alive.

To celebrate the Civil War is to be mentally challenged at the very least.
 
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