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Sorry Snowden, Russia Is Not Exactly a Bastion of Free Speech

Wraith8

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From Human Rights Watch...


Edward Snowden’s Russian lawyer says his client wants to start learning Russian. Now that the American whistleblower has finally left Sheremetyevo airport for “temporary asylum” in Russia, he might find himselfiz ognya da v polymya –out of the frying pan and into the fire. After all, Russia is hardly a bastion of free speech defense.We recommend including a few key terms in any vocabulary lesson:

Khuliganstvo: Translated as “hooliganism,” this word can mean anything from getting into fistfights to shouting political slogans and jumping around in a Moscow cathedral. Two women from the punk group ***** Riot are currently serving out a two-year prison term for theirkhuliganstvo. (***** Riot, in case you’re wondering, is “Pussi Raiot” in Russian.)

Ekstremizm: This one is easy for an American to pronounce, but hard to define. It can mean just about anything that is controversial or generates “discontent,”especially if it criticizes the authorities. There’s a whole section of the Russian police dedicated to fightingekstremizm. One example of their work: the prosecutor’s office recently tried to ban a book calling for an international tribunal on war crimes committed in Chechnya because of itsekstremizm.

Proverka: This is a term that critics of the Russian government know well. The exact translation is “audit” or “inspection,” but often aproverkalooks more like a raid: officials from the tax inspectorate, health inspectorate, Federal Security Service, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Federal Migration Service, prosecutor’s office, or possibly even the fire inspectorate swoop down without notice into the office of a non-governmental organization and ask lots of questions and demand loads of documents. Recently, Russia’s prosecutor general reassured the public that their purpose is just to “get to know” what NGOs do. This cozy exercise has resulted so far in at least nine court cases against NGOs for various alleged infractions.

Propaganda: Yup, same word! But it doesn’t mean quite what you might think. In Soviet days, this was a respectable Communist Party pursuit. This summer, the word has taken on a sinister new meaning with the passage of a law forbiddingpropagandafor homosexuality. Don’t reassure any miserable Russian teenager that “it gets better” – that could qualify aspropaganda.

Inostrany agent: “Foreign agent” is a Cold War term for a spy, but even though Snowden was a card-carrying consultant to the U.S. National Security Agency, it won’t apply to him. A new Russian law requires that NGOs who get funding from abroad and engage in unspecified “political activity” register asinostrany agenti.Several NGOs have gone to court to fight the application of this term to them, which they describe as tantamount to being branded as a traitor.

Predstavlenie: This is another one of those innocuous Russian words that has taken on a spooky new meaning. Technically, apredstavlenieis any kind of notice. These days, for NGOs, it means the prosecutor thinks you’ve violated the law, possibly by engaging inpoliticheskie deyatel’nost(political activity) such as holding a roundtable, making a policy recommendation to a state official, or raising awareness about corruption. Most likely, it probably means you’re going to court.

Preduprezhdenie: It means “warning.” It’s a milder form of thepredstavlenieabove, but it’s no joke. The prosecutor may suspend an NGO that gets more than two of them.

Zalozhnik: Not long before his death, Russia's most famous whistleblower described himself as a “hostage” to a Moscow judge. Sergei Magnitsky, a lawyer and accountant, had alleged that Kremlin insiders were involved in a massive scheme to defraud the Russian government of more than $200 million in taxes. Instead of investigating his allegations, the authorities arrested Magnitsky, who died of untreated pancreatitis in a pretrial prison in 2009. This summer, Magnitsky was posthumously convicted of tax evasion.

Edward Snowden may feel like a zalozhnik to geopolitical forces much greater than himself. He certainly deserves to have his asylum claim heard. But if he stays in Russia for any length of time, he will probably want to familiarize himself with how critics fare with the government that has given him shelter.


If Snowden really wants to learn Russian
.
 
I agree. By buddying-up with Russia Snowden has destroyed any credibility he may have had as being an agent fighting against tyranny and oppression. Now he's more of a "well, i'll tolerate tyranny and oppression when it suits me" kind of agent.
 
No, Russia is actually a pretty lousy place for free speech. Why are we sinking down to their level?
 
At least the Russians aren't all like prissy about how they run their country. Maybe we expected more as Americans but our government secretly treated us at least as badly as a Russian might be.

The deal with Russia includes a prohibition against him giving out any more information. This was the Russians demand, not Snowdens. They want to help him out but they don't want to make this any more obnoxious than it has to be.

Everyone has a little irony in their lives. I hope he meets a nice Russian girl and settles down. Russia has as much Capitalistic opportunity as America and probably less regulation.
 
Mr. Snowden's issue is the fourth amendment, not the first amendment.

Free speech is useless when nothing intelligent comes of it.



No, Russia is actually a pretty lousy place for free speech. Why are we sinking down to their level?
 
I agree. By buddying-up with Russia Snowden has destroyed any credibility he may have had as being an agent fighting against tyranny and oppression. Now he's more of a "well, i'll tolerate tyranny and oppression when it suits me" kind of agent.

Yeah, because Snowden totally turned down all those offers of Asylum by freedom-loving democracies and chose to go to Russia. Oh wait. They all demonstrated that their respect for human rights and transparency was just talk and closed their doors on him. He ended up in Russia because he didn't have any other choice.
 
Mr. Snowden's issue is the fourth amendment, not the first amendment.

Free speech is useless when nothing intelligent comes of it.

And how many political positions would be silenced if we were to implement that sort of thinking?
 
Implement what sort of thinking? Can you be a bit more specific?



And how many political positions would be silenced if we were to implement that sort of thinking?
 
Yeah, because Snowden totally turned down all those offers of Asylum by freedom-loving democracies and chose to go to Russia. Oh wait. They all demonstrated that their respect for human rights and transparency was just talk and closed their doors on him. He ended up in Russia because he didn't have any other choice.

Snowden has had plenty of choices. He chose to release classified information knowing that he could very well face imprisonment. And now he's choosing protection of a gross violator of human rights to avoid facing that imprisonment. That makes it very clear that his motives for the leak were not so pure and, regardless of whether the leak was ultimately a good deed or not, Snowden is not the champion of liberty the masses are making him out to be.
 
From Human Rights Watch...


Edward Snowden’s Russian lawyer says his client wants to start learning Russian. Now that the American whistleblower has finally left Sheremetyevo airport for “temporary asylum” in Russia, he might find himselfiz ognya da v polymya –out of the frying pan and into the fire. After all, Russia is hardly a bastion of free speech defense.We recommend including a few key terms in any vocabulary lesson: [/url]
.

I agree. By buddying-up with Russia Snowden has destroyed any credibility he may have had as being an agent fighting against tyranny and oppression. Now he's more of a "well, i'll tolerate tyranny and oppression when it suits me" kind of agent.

No, it has nothing to do with his credibility or his past actions. He took the Russian asylum because he has no other choice, we're trying to lock him in a dark box for the rest of his life. I don't see how you could possibly take this as a "I think Russia is less tyrannical" statement. In reality all he's saying is it's better than the alternative.


Snowden has had plenty of choices. He chose to release classified information knowing that he could very well face imprisonment. And now he's choosing protection of a gross violator of human rights to avoid facing that imprisonment. That makes it very clear that his motives for the leak were not so pure and, regardless of whether the leak was ultimately a good deed or not, Snowden is not the champion of liberty the masses are making him out to be.

That might be true if it was his plan from the beginning to go to Russia, which it wasn't. Russia was just the only ones that would take him. He underestimated how hard the US would bully all of the upstanding nations into not taking him.

He's done us a great service, and how he now has to play spy games to avoid being thrown in a dark hole doesn't really make any statement about his original intentions.
 
There is a whole group of people backing Snowden.... I would bet that within the year, he will be in Iceland, where he originally wanted and intended to go. It depends on how closely the Russians will watch him, if they watch him at all...
 
There is a whole group of people backing Snowden.... I would bet that within the year, he will be in Iceland, where he originally wanted and intended to go. It depends on how closely the Russians will watch him, if they watch him at all...

If you think he can move an inch without the Russian security agencies knowing about it, you are very naïve.
 
No, it has nothing to do with his credibility or his past actions. He took the Russian asylum because he has no other choice, we're trying to lock him in a dark box for the rest of his life.

I just addressed this. He's had plenty of choices. He's choosing protection of a gross violator of human rights.

I don't see how you could possibly take this as a "I think Russia is less tyrannical" statement.

I've never said he's making any statement of the sort. He doesn't care whether Russia is tyrannical. That's my point. He's ok with abusive tyrannical power as long as it benefits him.

In reality all he's saying is it's better than the alternative.

No. What it says is that he's willing to tolerate a nation that is a proven violator of human rights....as long as it suits him.


That might be true if it was his plan from the beginning to go to Russia, which it wasn't. Russia was just the only ones that would take him. He underestimated how hard the US would bully all of the upstanding nations into not taking him.

Basically, yes. He thought he would be safe in Hong Kong. Now that he's facing the consequences of his actions, he's running to the arms of a notoriously terrible government that imprisons political opponents and members of the press. I'm sorry, if you can't see the hypocrisy here I think you're blind.
 
Snowden has had plenty of choices. He chose to release classified information knowing that he could very well face imprisonment. And now he's choosing protection of a gross violator of human rights to avoid facing that imprisonment. That makes it very clear that his motives for the leak were not so pure and, regardless of whether the leak was ultimately a good deed or not, Snowden is not the champion of liberty the masses are making him out to be.

There is a huge difference between simply living in a country and actively collaborating with the government to oppress people. I don't accept that I am responsible for the human rights violations of the U.S. government simply because I live within its jurisdiction. Snowden has not condoned the actions of the Kremlin or claimed they were a bastion of human rights. All he has done is make the only choice possible to avoid facing the tender mercies of a kangaroo court back here. He isn't a martyr or a saint, he is a relatively normal guy who just wants to not be locked away forever because he told the truth.
 
No, it has nothing to do with his credibility or his past actions. He took the Russian asylum because he has no other choice, we're trying to lock him in a dark box for the rest of his life. I don't see how you could possibly take this as a "I think Russia is less tyrannical" statement. In reality all he's saying is it's better than the alternative.




That might be true if it was his plan from the beginning to go to Russia, which it wasn't. Russia was just the only ones that would take him. He underestimated how hard the US would bully all of the upstanding nations into not taking him.

He's done us a great service, and how he now has to play spy games to avoid being thrown in a dark hole doesn't really make any statement about his original intentions.

Exactly. I'm amazed that people would construe an asylum request as an endorsement of that countries political practices. By definition a request for asylum is an act of desperation for someone who believes that significant harm will fall upon them if they return to their country of origin. He spent weeks and weeks trying to get asylum in less hostile Latin American countries and in Europe but was either rebuffed or logistically blocked. Choosing temporary asylum so he can evade extradition while exploring other options for shelter beyond Russia's borders is entirely sensible. It doesn't mean Snowden aligns with Russia on anything other than their "Not Extraditing Snowden" policy.
 
I just addressed this. He's had plenty of choices. He's choosing protection of a gross violator of human rights.



I've never said he's making any statement of the sort. He doesn't care whether Russia is tyrannical. That's my point. He's ok with abusive tyrannical power as long as it benefits him.



No. What it says is that he's willing to tolerate a nation that is a proven violator of human rights....as long as it suits him.




Basically, yes. He thought he would be safe in Hong Kong. Now that he's facing the consequences of his actions, he's running to the arms of a notoriously terrible government that imprisons political opponents and members of the press. I'm sorry, if you can't see the hypocrisy here I think you're blind.

1) He did not have plenty of choices, because he couldn't get out of Russia.

2) He does care whether Russia is tyrannical, however, they're not trying to lock him a cage for the rest of his life, so it's the lesser of two evils. If you really think getting trapped in a Moscow airport was his master plan, you lack imagination.

3) Tolerates? You're not really making any sense.

4) Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils. I guarantee you would take any olive branch you could get if your government was trying to lock you away forever. But please, tell me from the comfort of your armchair how you would totally "stand up for what's right and turn yourself in".
 
There is a huge difference between simply living in a country and actively collaborating with the government to oppress people. I don't accept that I am responsible for the human rights violations of the U.S. government simply because I live within its jurisdiction.

I have certainly never contended that Snowden is responsible for Russia's transgressions so I don't see where you'd get a silly idea like that.

Snowden has not condoned the actions of the Kremlin or claimed they were a bastion of human rights. All he has done is make the only choice possible to avoid facing the tender mercies of a kangaroo court back here.

I disagree. Given the circumstances I find Snowden's quiet acceptance of asylum from a well known abuser of human rights as tacit acceptance of such abuse. Snowden has been, obviously, rather outspoken regarding the US gov't's abuses of power. He's been decidedly less outspoken regarding Russia's abuses, like the jailing of ***** Riot or Navalny, wouldn't you say? I would guess that that silence is probably driven out of consideration of his own personal well-being.

That, then, is hypocrisy.

He isn't a martyr or a saint, he is a relatively normal guy who just wants to not be locked away forever because he told the truth.

You see, now you're coming around to my view. :lol: You're right, Snowden is no saint. He's a typical hypocrit who will, apparently, overlook abuse of power and violation of human rights if he stands to benefit from doing so.

Anyway, I think Snowden's irrelevant. He never should have deliberately revealed himself in the first place. That's Whistleblowing 101. It tends to shift the focus onto the leaker himself and away from the information that was leaked, which is where the discussion and media coverage should be.
 
1) He did not have plenty of choices, because he couldn't get out of Russia.

I didn't say plenty of choices for asylum. I said plenty of choices.

2) He does care whether Russia is tyrannical, however, they're not trying to lock him a cage for the rest of his life, so it's the lesser of two evils.

No. It's not a lesser of two evils dilemma. It's a save-my-own-skin or stick-to-my-morals dilemma.

If you really think getting trapped in a Moscow airport was his master plan, you lack imagination.

Master plan? Please. He has no clue what he's doing anymore.


3) Tolerates? You're not really making any sense.

Here maybe this will help you.

Tolerate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

4) Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils. I guarantee you would take any olive branch you could get if your government was trying to lock you away forever. But please, tell me from the comfort of your armchair how you would totally "stand up for what's right and turn yourself in".

Why Rabid, you wound me!
 
No, Russia is actually a pretty lousy place for free speech. Why are we sinking down to their level?

Who's we? Last I heard, it's only the US gummint that's at the bottom of the ocean floor.
 
From Human Rights Watch...


Edward Snowden’s Russian lawyer says his client wants to start learning Russian. Now that the American whistleblower has finally left Sheremetyevo airport for “temporary asylum” in Russia, he might find himselfiz ognya da v polymya –out of the frying pan and into the fire. After all, Russia is hardly a bastion of free speech defense.We recommend including a few key terms in any vocabulary lesson:

Khuliganstvo: Translated as “hooliganism,” this word can mean anything from getting into fistfights to shouting political slogans and jumping around in a Moscow cathedral. Two women from the punk group ***** Riot are currently serving out a two-year prison term for theirkhuliganstvo. (***** Riot, in case you’re wondering, is “Pussi Raiot” in Russian.)

Ekstremizm: This one is easy for an American to pronounce, but hard to define. It can mean just about anything that is controversial or generates “discontent,”especially if it criticizes the authorities. There’s a whole section of the Russian police dedicated to fightingekstremizm. One example of their work: the prosecutor’s office recently tried to ban a book calling for an international tribunal on war crimes committed in Chechnya because of itsekstremizm.

Proverka: This is a term that critics of the Russian government know well. The exact translation is “audit” or “inspection,” but often aproverkalooks more like a raid: officials from the tax inspectorate, health inspectorate, Federal Security Service, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Federal Migration Service, prosecutor’s office, or possibly even the fire inspectorate swoop down without notice into the office of a non-governmental organization and ask lots of questions and demand loads of documents. Recently, Russia’s prosecutor general reassured the public that their purpose is just to “get to know” what NGOs do. This cozy exercise has resulted so far in at least nine court cases against NGOs for various alleged infractions.

Propaganda: Yup, same word! But it doesn’t mean quite what you might think. In Soviet days, this was a respectable Communist Party pursuit. This summer, the word has taken on a sinister new meaning with the passage of a law forbiddingpropagandafor homosexuality. Don’t reassure any miserable Russian teenager that “it gets better” – that could qualify aspropaganda.

Inostrany agent: “Foreign agent” is a Cold War term for a spy, but even though Snowden was a card-carrying consultant to the U.S. National Security Agency, it won’t apply to him. A new Russian law requires that NGOs who get funding from abroad and engage in unspecified “political activity” register asinostrany agenti.Several NGOs have gone to court to fight the application of this term to them, which they describe as tantamount to being branded as a traitor.

Predstavlenie: This is another one of those innocuous Russian words that has taken on a spooky new meaning. Technically, apredstavlenieis any kind of notice. These days, for NGOs, it means the prosecutor thinks you’ve violated the law, possibly by engaging inpoliticheskie deyatel’nost(political activity) such as holding a roundtable, making a policy recommendation to a state official, or raising awareness about corruption. Most likely, it probably means you’re going to court.

Preduprezhdenie: It means “warning.” It’s a milder form of thepredstavlenieabove, but it’s no joke. The prosecutor may suspend an NGO that gets more than two of them.

Zalozhnik: Not long before his death, Russia's most famous whistleblower described himself as a “hostage” to a Moscow judge. Sergei Magnitsky, a lawyer and accountant, had alleged that Kremlin insiders were involved in a massive scheme to defraud the Russian government of more than $200 million in taxes. Instead of investigating his allegations, the authorities arrested Magnitsky, who died of untreated pancreatitis in a pretrial prison in 2009. This summer, Magnitsky was posthumously convicted of tax evasion.

Edward Snowden may feel like a zalozhnik to geopolitical forces much greater than himself. He certainly deserves to have his asylum claim heard. But if he stays in Russia for any length of time, he will probably want to familiarize himself with how critics fare with the government that has given him shelter.


If Snowden really wants to learn Russian
.

There is zero evidence that Snowden is in Russia. At this point, he could anywhere on the globe. It's incredibly naive to think Russia would telegraph its moves.
 
Yeah, because Snowden totally turned down all those offers of Asylum by freedom-loving democracies and chose to go to Russia. Oh wait. They all demonstrated that their respect for human rights and transparency was just talk and closed their doors on him. He ended up in Russia because he didn't have any other choice.

How do you know he's in Russia?
 
If you think he can move an inch without the Russian security agencies knowing about it, you are very naïve.



Why should they watch him so closely? They really don't want him there.. They don't want to send him back to the U.S. or anywhere else....Why just not lose sight of him so he can be whisked out of the country... ?
 
and we all know russia has a history of dealing with political deserters, whether it be using a umbrella that fires a pellet of deadly poison, to putting radiactive material in the food of a sushi resteraunt in Brittan
 
I agree. By buddying-up with Russia Snowden has destroyed any credibility he may have had as being an agent fighting against tyranny and oppression. Now he's more of a "well, i'll tolerate tyranny and oppression when it suits me" kind of agent.

I agree in theory, but I imagine he doesn't have much choice at this point. If he wants to avoid being put on trial (even if temporarily), that is.
 
Why should they watch him so closely? They really don't want him there.. They don't want to send him back to the U.S. or anywhere else....Why just not lose sight of him so he can be whisked out of the country... ?

In most instances, they probably would do just that. But given the outcry and media attention in the U.S., Snowden is now the biggest piece of political leverage Russia has had on the United States since the height of the Cold War.
 
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