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Some charts on fatal police killings [W: 39]

Small homogeneous countries like California?

That's the Golden State, after all.

So, it's your opinion then that the reason the US has more homicides than other nations is our diversity of cultures, is that correct?
Cali is far from Homogenous.

I'm saying it probably plays a significant role. After all, when we look at US crime rates, crime itself varies greatly depending on culture. Amish and Mormons--very little crime. Black and Latino--quite a bit of crime.
 
Yeah. I know those places have opened their borders. Soon you all will have the same problems we do. It's already starting to show up in places like France. Welcome to our world.

So you started by saying that the rate of fatal police shootings is much higher in the US just because of population. But then you were shown that the figures are per million citizens, so you decided it must be because of cultural heterogeneity instead. That too was debunked, but that's okay because all of a sudden you remembered that it's really all about population density and ethnic heterogeneity. And now that it's been shown that countries like Canada and Australia have similar or higher rates of urbanization and ethnic diversity, you're suddenly convinced that by unspecified means we have somehow managed to delay the same consequences but they're definitely gonna come anyway!

At what point do you begin to consider the possibility that maybe the extraordinarily high rates of fatal police shootings in the US might, just possibly, have something to do with the reasons given - "He had a gun/I thought he had a gun/I was told he had a gun" - most of the time when a fatal shooting occurs? Unlike all the other ad hoc excuses you've come up with, it is actually a fact that the US has extraordinarily high gun prevalence compared to the other developed countries listed (and indeed pretty much everywhere else in the world too).
 
So you started by saying that the rate of fatal police shootings is much higher in the US just because of population. But then you were shown that the figures are per million citizens, so you decided it must be because of cultural heterogeneity instead. That too was debunked, but that's okay because all of a sudden you remembered that it's really all about population density and ethnic heterogeneity. And now that it's been shown that countries like Canada and Australia have similar or higher rates of urbanization and ethnic diversity, you're suddenly convinced that by unspecified means we have somehow managed to delay the same consequences but they're definitely gonna come anyway!

At what point do you begin to consider the possibility that maybe the extraordinarily high rates of fatal police shootings in the US might, just possibly, have something to do with the reasons given - "He had a gun/I thought he had a gun/I was told he had a gun" - most of the time when a fatal shooting occurs? Unlike all the other ad hoc excuses you've come up with, it is actually a fact that the US has extraordinarily high gun prevalence compared to the other developed countries listed (and indeed pretty much everywhere else in the world too).
Canada has a lot of guns too. Back to square one we go.

Yes. I believe the US crime problem is due in part to a combination of its large population and myriad of diverse cultures. Drugs too. We can't exclude drugs. And police shootings are probably due to the high number of police encounters we have here, much of it due to the war on drugs.
 
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Still I couldn't believe that American cops are even that violent against the people they are supposed to protect and serve. Maybe American citizens are, for some reason, just a lot more violent than other developed countries, and the cops need to be correspondingly forceful back at them? In fact the US does have higher rates of violent crime, but even that comparison doesn't bring America down in line with most other countries - the rate of fatal police shootings is still 4.6 times higher than Denmark, 3 times higher than Canada:

I don't think this adequately controls for the level of violence that police themselves face. Whether police violence is justified depends entirely, I think, on the level of violence the police face, and the only way to know that is to look at the violence they actually face, not just over all violence in a society.

With about 1200 fatal shootings it ought to be possible to go through them on a case by case basis and find out why things turned violent. Ninety percent of the time when cops kill the perps are armed; that ought to be an important clue. I'd like to see that figure compared to those in other countries.

In Switzerland everyone has a military rifle in the home, but almost no one uses guns in crimes. Maybe it's just a matter of average intelligence.
 
I don't think this adequately controls for the level of violence that police themselves face. Whether police violence is justified depends entirely, I think, on the level of violence the police face, and the only way to know that is to look at the violence they actually face, not just over all violence in a society.

I looked at violence faced by police in post #41:
I found some data on police deaths in the line of duty from 2005 to 2013 for America's two closest competitors, Canada and Australia, along with the United States; worked out the annual average and then converted that into annual police KIA per million citizens. More American police are killed per year per million citizens (0.4) than in Canada (0.2) and Australia (0.1). That actually does bring America's fatal police shootings a little more in line with the other countries, but really not by much:
USFPS4.jpg

With about 1200 fatal shootings it ought to be possible to go through them on a case by case basis and find out why things turned violent. Ninety percent of the time when cops kill the perps are armed; that ought to be an important clue. I'd like to see that figure compared to those in other countries.

In Switzerland everyone has a military rifle in the home, but almost no one uses guns in crimes. Maybe it's just a matter of average intelligence.

The likelihood that most of the people killed by police are armed or the cops thought they were armed (and specifically with a deadly, ranged weapon in many/most cases) is pretty much the direction I was going after looking up the stats outlined in the OP.

Of course nothing is ever that simple, not by a long shot, and factors such as police recruitment, training, procedures and occupational expectations (eg. the 'war on drugs' that several posters have mentioned) undoubtedly play a big role too. But in those respects it's hard to imagine the US is that different from all those other developed countries. By contrast gun prevalence is a very clear and marked difference; 112 guns per 100 citizens in the US according to Wikipedia, compared with 76 in Serbia, 55 in Yemen and <37 for all other countries (asterisk next to Switzerland). It seems to be both the most obvious reason for police shootings and the only quantifiable point of comparison which brings the US police shooting figures within spitting distance of the other countries.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

I don't think it's more true than not, but that's my opinion. I originally asked you about because I find the idea intriguing in that permisiveness could have an effect. However, my first instinct (for lack of a better word) is to presume that at least some of those other nations are more permissive generally. However, it would be difficult for either of us to prove our opinion. How do we measure "permissiveness"? :shrug:

That's a good question.
I dunno yet, sometimes I come up with stuff, that in the end is stupid and wrong.
This may be one, I haven't fully thought it out yet
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Eh? The black population of the US is 12%, the Asian is about 5%.. that is 17%. The rest is white... so 73% give or take a %.
Hispanics are considered white. Opps.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

OK, so I think most of us can agree:
The US has more gun violence per capita than most other nations, and more than other peaceful democracies worldwide.
The possible reasons are:
Proliferation of guns,
the war on drugs,
the prevalence of drugs and of addicts,

Maybe the diversity of cultures, but I'm not so sure about that one.

Of course, not everyone here agrees. Not everyone agrees that water is wet or the world is round.

So, how do we address this issue? Is it an issue, or is it OK? Of the possible causes, which ones can we address?
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

They have a right to go home at night, and they are allowed to protect themselves at the same time.

Show me in print where a cop is required to take a beating.

They are allowed to go home in peace and they are allowed to defend themselves but they should expect that from time to time they will be at the sharp end of society's anger in whatever form that takes.

It is for the police as an organisation to look at ways to defuse rather than agrivate such situations and to leave the gun in the holster whenever possible rather than the present idea of pulling the thing out when teenage girls are protesting about the cops breaking up a pool party.
 
I looked at violence faced by police in post #41:
I found some data on police deaths in the line of duty from 2005 to 2013 for America's two closest competitors.​


This is closer to addressing the issue. All things being equal the ratio of cops killed to perps killed should be about the same, but I suspect it's not when different countries are compared. A perp who kills a cop in the UK is going to be an entirely different sort of person under very different circumstances from the kid who shot a cop with a handgun after being stopped for a robbery, the sort of thing that happens in the US. Police who have to worry about anyone, some kid perhaps, or a couple involved in domestic violence, pulling a gun and shooting them, are going to be highly vigilant and quick to respond with deadly violence.

In the US, a highly consistent proportion of perps who come to the attention of cops get killed by cops. It's the same across all races and ethnic groups. The moral of the story is stay out of trouble, don't do anything that would attract the attention of authorities.​
 
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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

OK, so I think most of us can agree:
The US has more gun violence per capita than most other nations, and more than other peaceful democracies worldwide.
The possible reasons are:
Proliferation of guns,
the war on drugs,
the prevalence of drugs and of addicts,

Maybe the diversity of cultures, but I'm not so sure about that one.

Of course, not everyone here agrees. Not everyone agrees that water is wet or the world is round.

So, how do we address this issue? Is it an issue, or is it OK? Of the possible causes, which ones can we address?

One way to address it would be to keep guns out of the hands of kids and young men on the streets. New York City did this with stop and frisk, and it was highly successful in bringing down violent death rates.
 
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This is closer to addressing the issue. All things being equal the ratio of cops killed to perps killed should be about the same, but I suspect it's not when different countries are compared. A perp who kills a cop in the UK is going to be an entirely different sort of person under very different circumstances from the kid who shot a cop with a handgun after being stopped for a robbery, the sort of thing that happens in the US. Police who have to worry about anyone, some kid perhaps, or a couple involved in domestic violence, pulling a gun and shooting them, are going to be highly vigilant and quick to respond with deadly violence.

In the US, a highly consistent proportion of perps who come to the attention of cops get killed by cops. It's the same across all races and ethnic groups. The moral of the story is stay out of trouble, don't do anything that would attract the attention of authorities.

Like be black.

I can assure you that idiot kids in the UK with guns and knives are just as likely to attack the police wiith them as in the US.
 
Considering Australia's immigration policies ( past and present) it's no wonder they have no problems, From 1901 to around 1958 they had a "white's only" immigration policy, They still have fairly strict immigration policies to this day. Rather than type a history lesson on Aussie immigration, See the attached link.

Australia?s migration history | NSW Migration Heritage Centre

Also, While we have the misfortune of slavery history,(at least we did not try to eliminate the black race), Australian whites tried ( and almost succeeded in whipping out the Aboriginal people ) they also enslaved them as well.

While Australia can impose those restrictions on immigration ( maybe they are the smart one's) If we had those restriction here ( good ole USA) we would be considered a bunch of racists.

Can't say I blame them tho' If we could have the same Immigration policies as them, There would be less "undesirables" for the police to kill, then the fancy graphs would look a whole lot more even.

djl
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

They are allowed to go home in peace and they are allowed to defend themselves but they should expect that from time to time they will be at the sharp end of society's anger in whatever form that takes.

It is for the police as an organisation to look at ways to defuse rather than agrivate such situations and to leave the gun in the holster whenever possible rather than the present idea of pulling the thing out when teenage girls are protesting about the cops breaking up a pool party.

Sorry....but folks continue to use a handful of bad events to try and paint the entire US police force as brutal racists. Didn't that nice little girl try to kick the cop before he took her down?
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

One way to address it would be to keep guns out of the hands of kids and young men on the streets. New York City did this with stop and frisk, and it was highly successful in bringing down violent death rates.

How many constitutional rights are we going to violate?
 
Considering Australia's immigration policies ( past and present) it's no wonder they have no problems, From 1901 to around 1958 they had a "white's only" immigration policy, They still have fairly strict immigration policies to this day. Rather than type a history lesson on Aussie immigration, See the attached link.

Australia?s migration history | NSW Migration Heritage Centre

Also, While we have the misfortune of slavery history,(at least we did not try to eliminate the black race), Australian whites tried ( and almost succeeded in whipping out the Aboriginal people ) they also enslaved them as well.

While Australia can impose those restrictions on immigration ( maybe they are the smart one's) If we had those restriction here ( good ole USA) we would be considered a bunch of racists.

Can't say I blame them tho' If we could have the same Immigration policies as them, There would be less "undesirables" for the police to kill, then the fancy graphs would look a whole lot more even.

djl

At least you are open and honest about your racism; no *****footing around with "not culturally homogenous" nonsense. Australia's history is pretty dark, but as I showed in the last 50 years we've become probably even more multicultural than the US. In high school the folk I hung out with were German, Polish, Serbian, Sri Lankan, Vietnamese and Korean, and only one other 2/3/4 generation Aussie like myself. In my past two share houses my housemates have been three British, three east Asians, two Iranians, two Africans, and Afghani and an Aussie. All lovely people, except that Serbian prick, and I imagine he grew up into a decent bloke.

As I noted in an earlier reply to Crovax, historical waves of immigrants from countries like Ireland and Italy have been associated with elevated crime rates, because of issues like formation of ethnic ghettos, generally lower immigrant incomes and - lets face it - a certain amount of bigotry against them by folk whose families had lived there for a few extra decades. There's no evidence that skin pigmentation has anything to do with criminality; in fact the idea is absurd on the face of it.
 
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Like be black.

I can assure you that idiot kids in the UK with guns and knives are just as likely to attack the police wiith them as in the US.

1. Except to the extent that witnesses to crimes report that perps are black there's no evidence that being black attracts any special attention from cops. Even "driving while black" is a phenomenon that results because blacks commit way more traffic violations than other groups. If cops are supposed to be fighting crime then they can't help but end up dealing with blacks more often.

2. Kids are very unlikely to have guns in the UK. There's something wrong in the US when some kid, a kid, mind you, will produce a gun and shoot at police (or, more likely, at each other) so often. Again, I say that stop and frisk in NYC was a damned good idea.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Sorry....but folks continue to use a handful of bad events to try and paint the entire US police force as brutal racists. Didn't that nice little girl try to kick the cop before he took her down?

I don't think so and so what? Why would that need to result in the gun coming out????
 
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