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Some charts on fatal police killings [W: 39]

Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

It's sometimes the little things that make all the difference.
Permissive isn't supposed to imply good, nor bad, just a thing.

"Little things" is plural and all you've done is point to one thing (singular). And that one thing is insignificant as it affects such a small subset of the population.

I don't see how measuring a culture's permissiveness based on their motorcycle licensing scheme caan be considered anything but a stretch
 
I was doing some reading about current affairs, and I stumbled across a number of different sources suggesting that in the United States the police kill its citizens something like 70 times as often as other first-world countries.

Of course the US is bigger than most other countries, so I looked around further in order to put it into a fairer perspective. Turns out US police only kill their citizens at about 18 times the per capita rate of America's third closest 'competitor' (Denmark), and a mere 8.5 times the rate of their closest competitor (Canada), from the countries I could find information for:
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Still I couldn't believe that American cops are even that violent against the people they are supposed to protect and serve. Maybe American citizens are, for some reason, just a lot more violent than other developed countries, and the cops need to be correspondingly forceful back at them? In fact the US does have higher rates of violent crime, but even that comparison doesn't bring America down in line with most other countries - the rate of fatal police shootings is still 4.6 times higher than Denmark, 3 times higher than Canada:
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Seems like almost every time there is a fatal shooting, the immediate response is "He had a gun" or "He was reaching for a gun" or "I thought he had a gun" or "Someone told me he had a gun." So obviously, that was the next thing I looked at. According to Wikipedia, America's gun prevalence sits at over 100 guns per 100 citizens; besides Serbia (75) and Yemen (55), no other country has more than 37 guns per hundred citizens. Surprisingly or not, that comparison does bring the US figures closer down to the others:
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Spreadsheet/working

Sources:
Why American Cops Kill So Many Compared To European Cops
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

I always get a kick out of people comparing us to Canada or Denmark. lol...Canada has 35 million people; Denmark, 5 million and the US has almost 320 million. Hell, you can count up all the people in those countries listed on the graph and still fall short of the US population. See the disconnect?

lol...Australia, a country almost the same size as the US, but with 1/10 the population. Yeah, that's apples to apples. :roll:
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

"Little things" is plural and all you've done is point to one thing (singular). And that one thing is insignificant as it affects such a small subset of the population.

I don't see how measuring a culture's permissiveness based on their motorcycle licensing scheme caan be considered anything but a stretch

Yea it's probably a stretch at this point.
I'd have to come up with a more complete list, but at this point I think it's more true than not.
Right now it's just an opinion, I haven't completely tried to prove it.
 
I always get a kick out of people comparing us to Canada or Denmark. lol...Canada has 35 million people; Denmark, 5 million and the US has almost 320 million. Hell, you can count up all the people in those countries listed on the graph and still fall short of the US population. See the disconnect?

That is why you do statistics per capita or per 100k ... then there is no disconnect at all.
 
That is why you do statistics per capita or per 100k ... then there is no disconnect at all.

320 million people with 100 different cultures piled up on top of each other, with 300 million guns floating around, is not quite the same as 60 million Frenchies sipping wine or the homogeneous Germans marching in lockstep to Wagner.
 
320 million people with 100 different cultures piled up on top of each other, with 300 million guns floating around, is not quite the same as 60 million Frenchies sipping wine or the homogeneous Germans marching in lockstep to Wagner.

Boy you surely have a strange world view. The 60 million Frenchies are as different as the 320 million Americans when it comes to culture. A family on Corsica have a very different cultural than say some from Normandy. Northern Germans are very different culturally then Germans coming from deep dark Bavaria.

The only real difference is the gun epidemic and that many Americans seem to believe in violence as a first resort, not a last resort.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

With those issues you listed, what you see on TV, is not what is reality.
The majority of people, could give 2 craps about those issues, often support them.
Those that are against them ideologically are often rather passive in practice.

An example I gave in another thread is with licensing motorbikes.
I don't know how it is in Australia, but in the UK, there is a graduated licensing level based on engine size.
Here, I took my motorbike test on a 50cc scooter and I can drive any size motorbike.

Things like that I'd call, more permissive as well.

I did that too, in Britain. They tightened the rules since then, but its more age related than engine power per se. Too many kids dying on our crowded roads.. At 24 you can take a direct entry test on a 600cc/40kw (3.6bhp) bike and ride anything.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

I did that too, in Britain. They tightened the rules since then, but its more age related than engine power per se. Too many kids dying on our crowded roads.. At 24 you can take a direct entry test on a 600cc/40kw (3.6bhp) bike and ride anything.

I used to read Twist and Go.
Was really into scooters for a while.
That's how I learned about your licensing laws.

Thought it was strange that me taking the test on my scooter, allowed me to ride a decked out motorcycle.
But I'm not gonna complain too much.
 
I always get a kick out of people comparing us to Canada or Denmark. lol...Canada has 35 million people; Denmark, 5 million and the US has almost 320 million. Hell, you can count up all the people in those countries listed on the graph and still fall short of the US population. See the disconnect?

lol...Australia, a country almost the same size as the US, but with 1/10 the population. Yeah, that's apples to apples. :roll:

That's why you need to compare per capita rates. If Australia has roughly 1/10 the population of the US, and if it had 1/10 as many homicides, then we'd be about even. If they have 1/10 as many per capita, then they're doing a lot better than we are in the arena of curtailing murders.
 
That's why you need to compare per capita rates. If Australia has roughly 1/10 the population of the US, and if it had 1/10 as many homicides, then we'd be about even. If they have 1/10 as many per capita, then they're doing a lot better than we are in the arena of curtailing murders.

If the US had a density of 3 people per sq. Kilometer like Oz, almost all of it one race and a unified culture, we probably would have the same per capita rates as Australia, Sweden and Germany. All you have to do is look at the US crime numbers in the mostly White suburbs to see how that would play out.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Well I've said this already, but it's more an issue with permissiveness, rather than just abject violence.
We have a more permissive society, people will abuse that to more violent ends.

Only when you think permissiveness is the permission to carry guns and then have the police told they are in a war (on drugs) and recruited with videos of police blazing way with their guns.

Permission to be gay or to walk around with different cloaths on does not really tally with the police violence thing.
 
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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Only when you think permissiveness is the permission to carry guns and then have the police told they are in a war (on drugs) and recruited with videos of police blazinga way with their guns.

Permission to be gay or to walk around with different cloaths on does not really tally with the police violence thing.

Police aren't blazing away.
That's utterly hyperbolic.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Cops get attacked, beaten, shot at, spit on, and have things thrown at them every single day in America.

But you add another pile on thread ?

Did you do any research regarding how many times cops are attacked while trying to do their jobs?

That's the job. It's the job in the UK. It's the job in Canada. It's the job in France.

The recruitment videos should show that that is the job and the police have to be professional about it all. That's the job.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Police aren't blazing away.
That's utterly hyperbolic.

In some US police recuitment videos they are shown on the range firing away loads of ammo and this is intersperced with shots of robberies etc.

If you tell somebody they are in a war they will tend to believe it.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings


In some US police recuitment videos they are shown on the range firing away loads of ammo and this is intersperced with shots of robberies etc.

If you tell somebody they are in a war they will tend to believe it.

Yea the vast majority of police recruitment is on the websites of local municipalities.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

That's the job. It's the job in the UK. It's the job in Canada. It's the job in France.

The recruitment videos should show that that is the job and the police have to be professional about it all. That's the job.

They have a right to go home at night, and they are allowed to protect themselves at the same time.

Show me in print where a cop is required to take a beating.
 
I always get a kick out of people comparing us to Canada or Denmark. lol...Canada has 35 million people; Denmark, 5 million and the US has almost 320 million. Hell, you can count up all the people in those countries listed on the graph and still fall short of the US population. See the disconnect?

lol...Australia, a country almost the same size as the US, but with 1/10 the population. Yeah, that's apples to apples. :roll:

I always get a kick out of people not understanding what "per million citizens" means. Of course, you're pretty much the only one. You're special :) But I still got a kick out of it.
 
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Boy you surely have a strange world view. The 60 million Frenchies are as different as the 320 million Americans when it comes to culture. A family on Corsica have a very different cultural than say some from Normandy. Northern Germans are very different culturally then Germans coming from deep dark Bavaria.

The only real difference is the gun epidemic and that many Americans seem to believe in violence as a first resort, not a last resort.

I wouldn't be surprised if European countries are even less culturally homogenous than countries like Australia or the US; they have immigrants too, but like you say even the natives can be very different. It's hard for us colonials to understand why someone from London and someone from Liverpool can speak so differently, when they're like a hundredth of the distance apart as some of our cities. But when there's been people living in a region for a thousand years before there were cars or telephones, that's the kind of difference it makes. Had a Scouser housemate not so long ago and I could barely understand what he was saying for the first month or two :lol:
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

They have a right to go home at night, and they are allowed to protect themselves at the same time.

Show me in print where a cop is required to take a beating.

Show us in print where execution is the correct sentence for taking a swing at an officer. Police in other countries face the same situations, and manage to keep the murder rate 1/3th of America's whilst killing 1/10th as many citizens. Yes, US police face a bit more violence; twice as many US police are KIA as in Canada per million citizens, but that does not come anywhere close to explaining why there are 8 times as many fatal shootings per million citizens.

So far, the only quantifiable variable which brings the US back in line with the rest of the developed world is number of guns per capita: Your country's gun prevalence clearly makes your cops' jobs more difficult, more dangerous, and way more stressful.
 
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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Yea it's probably a stretch at this point.
I'd have to come up with a more complete list, but at this point I think it's more true than not.
Right now it's just an opinion, I haven't completely tried to prove it.

I don't think it's more true than not, but that's my opinion. I originally asked you about because I find the idea intriguing in that permisiveness could have an effect. However, my first instinct (for lack of a better word) is to presume that at least some of those other nations are more permissive generally. However, it would be difficult for either of us to prove our opinion. How do we measure "permissiveness"? :shrug:
 
If the US had a density of 3 people per sq. Kilometer like Oz, almost all of it one race and a unified culture, we probably would have the same per capita rates as Australia, Sweden and Germany. All you have to do is look at the US crime numbers in the mostly White suburbs to see how that would play out.

I'm not sure just what your point is. Is population density the answer then? Sweden and Germany have a greater population density than do Canada and Australia.

Of course a nation of 30 million is going to have fewer homicides than one of 300, all other things being equal. My point was that, to compare apples to apples, one must take into account population differences.
 
I'm not sure just what your point is. Is population density the answer then? Sweden and Germany have a greater population density than do Canada and Australia.

Of course a nation of 30 million is going to have fewer homicides than one of 300, all other things being equal. My point was that, to compare apples to apples, one must take into account population differences.

My point is that the US is a combination of Honduras, Mexico, South Africa, Germany, the UK, Jamaica, India, China, Japan....we have about 100 cultures all blending together here, in a country of 320 Million. You people in small, homogeneous countries have no idea what that is like. None.
 
My point is that the US is a combination of Honduras, Mexico, South Africa, Germany, the UK, Jamaica, India, China, Japan....we have about 100 cultures all blending together here, in a country of 320 Million. You people in small, homogeneous countries have no idea what that is like. None.

Small homogeneous countries like California?

That's the Golden State, after all.

So, it's your opinion then that the reason the US has more homicides than other nations is our diversity of cultures, is that correct?
 
My point is that the US is a combination of Honduras, Mexico, South Africa, Germany, the UK, Jamaica, India, China, Japan....we have about 100 cultures all blending together here, in a country of 320 Million. You people in small, homogeneous countries have no idea what that is like. None.

Canada (20.7%) and Australia (27.7%) both enjoy more immigration than the United States (14.3%), with countries like France and the UK in the 11-12% range. In terms of concentration of population, Australia is one of the more urbanised countries on those charts (89.2%); ahead of countries such as France (85.8%), the United States (82.4%), Canada (80.7%) and the UK (79.6%).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country

All you're really proving is that you have no idea what the rest of the world is like. None :lol:
 
Canada (20.7%) and Australia (27.7%) both enjoy more immigration than the United States (14.3%), with countries like France and the UK in the 11-12% range. In terms of concentration of population, Australia is one of the more urbanised countries on those charts (89.2%); ahead of countries such as France (85.8%), the United States (82.4%), Canada (80.7%) and the UK (79.6%).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country

All you're really proving is that you have no idea what the rest of the world is like. None :lol:

Yeah. I know those places have opened their borders. Soon you all will have the same problems we do. It's already starting to show up in places like France. Welcome to our world.
 
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