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Some charts on fatal police killings [W: 39]

Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Mithrae said:
How do those figures compare to other countries? No-one would suggest that a police officer is wrong to shoot someone if they're about to be shot (and equally, I would hope that no-one suggests it's okay to kill a person for throwing a punch). The question here is not why do American cops kill people, it's why do they kill people 8 times more than Canadian cops or 18 times more than Danish cops? To answer that, we need comparative data between the countries.
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Because there are a lot of criminals in the USA that have little regard for the cops life, or anyone else's for that matter. It is a violent country. Comparing any less violent country to the USA is useless in regards to police shootings.

C,mon down to the hood and see for yourself. You will have a new perspective on what the cops have to deal with every single hour of every single day.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Tigerace117 said:
No, the chart doesn't show that.

You still haven't answered my question, btw.

You ready to yet, or are you going to run away again?
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you are stalking. stop it.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

RetiredUSN said:
Because there are a lot of criminals in the USA that have little regard for the cops life, or anyone else's for that matter. It is a violent country. Comparing any less violent country to the USA is useless in regards to police shootings.

C,mon down to the hood and see for yourself. You will have a new perspective on what the cops have to deal with every single hour of every single day.
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no it isnt. do your homework before you post such foolishness.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

katzgar said:
you are stalking. stop it.
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No, I'm not stalking. You quoted me first. If anything, your stalking me.

Are you going to answer the question?
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

katzgar said:
no it isnt. do your homework before you post such foolishness.
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LOL.................ok!

Obviously you never spent any time in East St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit, Gary, Chicago, Oakland, Houston, Hotlanta, Miami, Philly, DC, Richmond, Camden, Memphis, Birmingham,Stockton, cleveland or Hampton roads.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

RetiredUSN said:
LOL.................ok!

Obviously you never spent any time in East St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit, Gary, Chicago, Oakland, Houston, Hotlanta, Miami, Philly, DC, Richmond, Camden, Memphis, Birmingham,Stockton, cleveland or Hampton roads.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
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obviously you havent done your homework. you are taking an anti american stance that isnt based on facts. why do you hate america and why do you find facts abhorrent.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

katzgar said:
obviously you havent done your homework. you are taking an anti american stance that isnt based on facts. why do you hate america and why do you find facts abhorrent.
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The stats are right in the links that I posted, from the FBI

So, unless you have anything to prove otherwise.............we are finished

Respectfully:
Mr. Abhorrant
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

RetiredUSN said:
The stats are right in the links that I posted, from the FBI

So, unless you have anything to prove otherwise.............we are finished

Respectfully:
Mr. Abhorrant
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thought so...more cherry picking facts.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

One factor can also be if the police have guns. That in some countries like the UK the police are not usually armed or like in Norway there they leave their guns in the car most of the time.

That this lead to that the police have to find other ways to deal with a potential violent situation and probably lead to a shift in attitude that can help to diffuse potential violent situations.

While in USA cops not only have to be arm but also at least in some cases need a more aggressive attitude because the greater number of armed citizen. That the greater risk that the suspect have a gun can more often lead to a decision to quickly subdue the suspect instead of first trying to diffuse the situation.

That there can be a lot of reason for people are aggressive towards cops anything from trying to be tough, having a bad day, earlier bad experience to be mentally ill. Then the police training and attitude can be a big factor if it will end in a violent or non violent situation. That a cop or bouncer that have a lot more violent encounters then their colleagues may not be more violent person instead just lacking the ability to diffuse situations with rude and aggressive people.

Also you need the right leadership in the police that can give the right training, help and support to the officers. Also transfer and rotate cops if needed and also help building good relationship with neighborhoods.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Mithrae said:
I was doing some reading about current affairs, and I stumbled across a number of different sources suggesting that in the United States the police kill its citizens something like 70 times as often as other first-world countries.

Of course the US is bigger than most other countries, so I looked around further in order to put it into a fairer perspective. Turns out US police only kill their citizens at about 18 times the per capita rate of America's third closest 'competitor' (Denmark), and a mere 8.5 times the rate of their closest competitor (Canada), from the countries I could find information for:
View attachment 67203943


Still I couldn't believe that American cops are even that violent against the people they are supposed to protect and serve. Maybe American citizens are, for some reason, just a lot more violent than other developed countries, and the cops need to be correspondingly forceful back at them? In fact the US does have higher rates of violent crime, but even that comparison doesn't bring America down in line with most other countries - the rate of fatal police shootings is still 4.6 times higher than Denmark, 3 times higher than Canada:
View attachment 67203944


Seems like almost every time there is a fatal shooting, the immediate response is "He had a gun" or "He was reaching for a gun" or "I thought he had a gun" or "Someone told me he had a gun." So obviously, that was the next thing I looked at. According to Wikipedia, America's gun prevalence sits at over 100 guns per 100 citizens; besides Serbia (75) and Yemen (55), no other country has more than 37 guns per hundred citizens. Surprisingly or not, that comparison does bring the US figures closer down to the others:
View attachment 67203945



Spreadsheet/working

Sources:
Why American Cops Kill So Many Compared To European Cops
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
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You seem to be missing some essentials:

Countries - such as Britain - do not arm a fair number of their officers. A MAJORITY of LEO's in a good number of European Countries aren't armed at all. They feel it puts LEO's MORE at risk of being assaulted and attacked. They feel that the role of most LEO's is to be approachable 'custodians of society' rather than able to protect citizens and selves. In fact, many aren't even trained to use one - and they want it that way.

And who's to say it's better than how we are in the US? So many horrific crimes have happened in numerous European Countries that I really cannot imagine living there and feeling safe. Especially if there aren't even LEO's that can defend someone who is being assaulted.

so . . . I'll pass on feeling the US is terrible over here. I live in small very safe town where most people probably own a firearm and yet the most dangerous thing around here are the fireants. A vast majority of US fatal shootings happen in Urban areas . . . and I'm not stupid enough to ever live in one.

You all can have the concrete sprawl with the dangerous criminals.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

RetiredUSN said:
Because there are a lot of criminals in the USA that have little regard for the cops life, or anyone else's for that matter. It is a violent country. Comparing any less violent country to the USA is useless in regards to police shootings.

C,mon down to the hood and see for yourself. You will have a new perspective on what the cops have to deal with every single hour of every single day.
Click to expand...

I looked at 'more violent Americans' angle by comparing against murder rates. Yes, the US has 3-5 times the rate of intentional homicide of other developed countries; but even comparing against each country's murder rate, US police still produce 4.6 times more fatalities than Denmark, 3 times more than Canada. Of course it's possible that murder and deadly assault against police is much more common in the US than in other countries, even moreso than the rates of violence generally, and that comparison would bring them all more into line. But that wouldn't really make sense, since cops are generally better prepared and better armed than average citizens, and cop killers will surely be hunted down more vigorously.

Still, I found some data on police deaths in the line of duty from 2005 to 2013 for America's two closest competitors, Canada and Australia, along with the United States; worked out the annual average and then converted that into annual police KIA per million citizens. More American police are killed per year per million citizens (0.4) than in Canada (0.2) and Australia (0.1). That actually does bring America's fatal police shootings a little more in line with the other countries, but really not by much:
USFPS4.jpg


So it looks like the number of guns still makes the closest comparison we've looked at. This is just a level-headed look at the data, and it's hard to imagine that it's purely coincidence: Americans own 3-5 times as many guns as the rest of the developed world, they've got 3-5 times the homicide rate of the rest of the world, and their police force's somewhat justified fear of such a heavily armed citizenry have resulted in 3-5 times as many police killings even compared with murder rates as the rest of the world.
USFPS3.jpg


I refuse to believe that American police are just trigger-happy Rambos, so there must be a coherent reason for the higher rate of police killings. So far, this is the only factor we've looked at which lines up and seems to make some sense of the killings.



Edit: I've just realised I put 'fatal police killings' in the thread title instead of 'fatal police shootings.' How embarrassing :3oops:
 
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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Harry Guerrilla said:
Well I've said this already, but it's more an issue with permissiveness, rather than just abject violence.
We have a more permissive society, people will abuse that to more violent ends.
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More permissive than Canada and Denmark?

In which way?
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Bergslagstroll said:
One factor can also be if the police have guns. That in some countries like the UK the police are not usually armed or like in Norway there they leave their guns in the car most of the time.
Click to expand...

I think the UK, Norway and Iceland are the only countries listed in which that's the case though, so that doesn't explain the difference. (New Zealand also, but that's not on the charts.)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cers-do-not-carry-firearms-and-it-works-well/

Bergslagstroll said:
While in USA cops not only have to be arm but also at least in some cases need a more aggressive attitude because the greater number of armed citizen. That the greater risk that the suspect have a gun can more often lead to a decision to quickly subdue the suspect instead of first trying to diffuse the situation.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm thinking may be the main issue here - it's certainly the only obvious comparison which brings the US back down in line with other countries.

Bergslagstroll said:
That there can be a lot of reason for people are aggressive towards cops anything from trying to be tough, having a bad day, earlier bad experience to be mentally ill. Then the police training and attitude can be a big factor if it will end in a violent or non violent situation. That a cop or bouncer that have a lot more violent encounters then their colleagues may not be more violent person instead just lacking the ability to diffuse situations with rude and aggressive people.

Also you need the right leadership in the police that can give the right training, help and support to the officers. Also transfer and rotate cops if needed and also help building good relationship with neighborhoods.
Click to expand...

All good points :)
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

katzgar said:
incorrect...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population
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Those figures are almost identical to the ones I posted, possibly because 'immigrant' and 'foreign-born' are the same thing in 99% of cases (citizens born overseas being the exception) :doh Your list does note that in the US including birthright citizens (a practice only in the US and Canada, amongst developed countries) to the immigrant numbers brings the total up to 25%, so there is that. But that's still only the same as Australia, and only a little higher than Canada (probably equal or less, if Canada's birthright citizens were included), so it certainly doesn't support Crovax's earlier suggestions that this can explain the US's much higher rate of police killings.
 
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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Aunt Spiker said:
You seem to be missing some essentials:

Countries - such as Britain - do not arm a fair number of their officers. A MAJORITY of LEO's in a good number of European Countries aren't armed at all. They feel it puts LEO's MORE at risk of being assaulted and attacked. They feel that the role of most LEO's is to be approachable 'custodians of society' rather than able to protect citizens and selves. In fact, many aren't even trained to use one - and they want it that way.

And who's to say it's better than how we are in the US? So many horrific crimes have happened in numerous European Countries that I really cannot imagine living there and feeling safe. Especially if there aren't even LEO's that can defend someone who is being assaulted.

so . . . I'll pass on feeling the US is terrible over here. I live in small very safe town where most people probably own a firearm and yet the most dangerous thing around here are the fireants. A vast majority of US fatal shootings happen in Urban areas . . . and I'm not stupid enough to ever live in one.

You all can have the concrete sprawl with the dangerous criminals.
Click to expand...

Horrific crimes are happening all around the world and the media is extensively reporting about it. Thankfully the risk of being affected about a horrific crime is very low. A good British article about different risks and how media is reporting about them.

But fears are rarely rational. If, say, jihadis were roaming our streets with automatic weapons, killing off 35 people a week, and critically injuring another 420, that terror would see a Brussels-style total lockdown of everything, everywhere. That’s the number killed and injured on the roads, but few shake with fear as they get into their car.
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http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...me-charts-fatal-police-killings-w-39-a-4.html

That even in America you could probably have greater risk of getting killed and injured by living in a “good” neighborhood and use your own car as your main transportation than living in a “bad” neighborhood and mostly use public transportation.

It is also about what to prioritize. For example, it can be greater demand to give military weapons to the police to prevent terrorist attacks than giving more money to woman shelters. Even if more money to woman shelters could save a lot more lives.

Also if you like at “safe” small town you probably have a larger degree of violent encounters between the police and citizens in an American small town than in a European small town. Because in an American small town the police have a greater fear that the “local troublemaker” are armed.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Harry Guerrilla said:
I think we're less concerned with safety, things like that.
I don't want to say "free" or something similar because I don't think that's the right word.
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When it comes to guns, I think you're right but I don't think a country that requires safety warnings on buckets ("Warning: Children under 5 can fall in and drown") and plastic bags ("Warning: Risk of suffocation") can be considered "less concerned with safety"
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

sangha said:
When it comes to guns, I think you're right but I don't think a country that requires safety warnings on buckets ("Warning: Children under 5 can fall in and drown") and plastic bags ("Warning: Risk of suffocation") can be considered "less concerned with safety"
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Yes and no.
The warnings have become so prolific that, in my opinion, they're completely ignored.

I gave an example about the differences in licensing for motorcycle exams.
In the U.K. you have to test for different engine sizes, here it's one size fits all.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Harry Guerrilla said:
Yes and no.
The warnings have become so prolific that, in my opinion, they're completely ignored.

I gave an example about the differences in licensing for motorcycle exams.
In the U.K. you have to test for different engine sizes, here it's one size fits all.
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I don't think motorcycle licenses based on engine size is a good indication of a society's overall concern for safety. It sounds like you're making quite a stretch.
 
Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

sangha said:
I don't think motorcycle licenses based on engine size is a good indication of a society's overall concern for safety. It sounds like you're making quite a stretch.
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It's sometimes the little things that make all the difference.
Permissive isn't supposed to imply good, nor bad, just a thing.
 
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