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Some charts on fatal police killings [W: 39]

Mithrae

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I was doing some reading about current affairs, and I stumbled across a number of different sources suggesting that in the United States the police kill its citizens something like 70 times as often as other first-world countries.

Of course the US is bigger than most other countries, so I looked around further in order to put it into a fairer perspective. Turns out US police only kill their citizens at about 18 times the per capita rate of America's third closest 'competitor' (Denmark), and a mere 8.5 times the rate of their closest competitor (Canada), from the countries I could find information for:
USFPS1.jpg


Still I couldn't believe that American cops are even that violent against the people they are supposed to protect and serve. Maybe American citizens are, for some reason, just a lot more violent than other developed countries, and the cops need to be correspondingly forceful back at them? In fact the US does have higher rates of violent crime, but even that comparison doesn't bring America down in line with most other countries - the rate of fatal police shootings is still 4.6 times higher than Denmark, 3 times higher than Canada:
USFPS2.jpg


Seems like almost every time there is a fatal shooting, the immediate response is "He had a gun" or "He was reaching for a gun" or "I thought he had a gun" or "Someone told me he had a gun." So obviously, that was the next thing I looked at. According to Wikipedia, America's gun prevalence sits at over 100 guns per 100 citizens; besides Serbia (75) and Yemen (55), no other country has more than 37 guns per hundred citizens. Surprisingly or not, that comparison does bring the US figures closer down to the others:
USFPS3.jpg



Spreadsheet/working

Sources:
Why American Cops Kill So Many Compared To European Cops
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Well I've said this already, but it's more an issue with permissiveness, rather than just abject violence.
We have a more permissive society, people will abuse that to more violent ends.
 

joG

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

I was doing some reading about current affairs, and I stumbled across a number of different sources suggesting that in the United States the police kill its citizens something like 70 times as often as other first-world countries.

Of course the US is bigger than most other countries, so I looked around further in order to put it into a fairer perspective. Turns out US police only kill their citizens at about 18 times the per capita rate of America's third closest 'competitor' (Denmark), and a mere 8.5 times the rate of their closest competitor (Canada), from the countries I could find information for:
View attachment 67203943


Still I couldn't believe that American cops are even that violent against the people they are supposed to protect and serve. Maybe American citizens are, for some reason, just a lot more violent than other developed countries, and the cops need to be correspondingly forceful back at them? In fact the US does have higher rates of violent crime, but even that comparison doesn't bring America down in line with most other countries - the rate of fatal police shootings is still 4.6 times higher than Denmark, 3 times higher than Canada:
View attachment 67203944


Seems like almost every time there is a fatal shooting, the immediate response is "He had a gun" or "He was reaching for a gun" or "I thought he had a gun" or "Someone told me he had a gun." So obviously, that was the next thing I looked at. According to Wikipedia, America's gun prevalence sits at over 100 guns per 100 citizens; besides Serbia (75) and Yemen (55), no other country has more than 37 guns per hundred citizens. Surprisingly or not, that comparison does bring the US figures closer down to the others:
View attachment 67203945



Spreadsheet/working

Sources:
Why American Cops Kill So Many Compared To European Cops
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

It is quite clear that the U.S. has a problem with violence. It is less clear, what we should do with that information.
 

joG

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Well I've said this already, but it's more an issue with permissiveness, rather than just abject violence.
We have a more permissive society, people will abuse that to more violent ends.

That is certainly part of it. I am not sure that the high mortality rates and all that make for a less efficient or less good society.
 

Mithrae

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Well I've said this already, but it's more an issue with permissiveness, rather than just abject violence.
We have a more permissive society, people will abuse that to more violent ends.

I don't know about more permissive: Think about issues like gay marriage, marijuana, public nudity and so on. I'd guess the most permissive countries in all areas are European, while half of America's states are 50 years behind, if not moreso. Freedom of speech and obviously gun ownership are the only things which spring to mind on which the US can be almost dogmatically permissive, because they're in the Bill of Rights, and it's not like any other Western countries practice widespread censorship (only big example I could think of is laws against Nazi content and Holocaust denial in some European countries).
 

Tigerace117

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

It is quite clear that the U.S. has a problem with violence. It is less clear, what we should do with that information.

I vote we ban dumb people.
 

joG

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Harry Guerrilla

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

I don't know about more permissive: Think about issues like gay marriage, marijuana, public nudity and so on. I'd guess the most permissive countries in all areas are European, while half of America's states are 50 years behind, if not moreso. Freedom of speech and obviously gun ownership are the only things which spring to mind on which the US can be almost dogmatically permissive, because they're in the Bill of Rights, and it's not like any other Western countries practice widespread censorship (only big example I could think of is laws against Nazi content and Holocaust denial in some European countries).

With those issues you listed, what you see on TV, is not what is reality.
The majority of people, could give 2 craps about those issues, often support them.
Those that are against them ideologically are often rather passive in practice.

An example I gave in another thread is with licensing motorbikes.
I don't know how it is in Australia, but in the UK, there is a graduated licensing level based on engine size.
Here, I took my motorbike test on a 50cc scooter and I can drive any size motorbike.

Things like that I'd call, more permissive as well.
 

Crovax

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

I don't know about more permissive: Think about issues like gay marriage, marijuana, public nudity and so on. I'd guess the most permissive countries in all areas are European, while half of America's states are 50 years behind, if not moreso. Freedom of speech and obviously gun ownership are the only things which spring to mind on which the US can be almost dogmatically permissive, because they're in the Bill of Rights, and it's not like any other Western countries practice widespread censorship (only big example I could think of is laws against Nazi content and Holocaust denial in some European countries).

You are missing a key factor the US has a much higher % of immigrants and minorities which is where most of all of our violent crime and police incidents come from. If you compare the white crime/murder/police shooting rates to those nearly all white culturally homogeneous European countries then they look surprisingly similar.
 

Mithrae

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

You are missing a key factor the US has a much higher % of immigrants and minorities which is where most of all of our violent crime and police incidents come from. If you compare the white crime/murder/police shooting rates to those nearly all white culturally homogeneous European countries then they look surprisingly similar.

Over a quarter of Australia's population is foreign born; a fifth in Canada; 13.9% in Norway, and only 13.1% in the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population
 

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

I was doing some reading about current affairs, and I stumbled across a number of different sources suggesting that in the United States the police kill its citizens something like 70 times as often as other first-world countries.

Of course the US is bigger than most other countries, so I looked around further in order to put it into a fairer perspective. Turns out US police only kill their citizens at about 18 times the per capita rate of America's third closest 'competitor' (Denmark), and a mere 8.5 times the rate of their closest competitor (Canada), from the countries I could find information for:
View attachment 67203943


Still I couldn't believe that American cops are even that violent against the people they are supposed to protect and serve. Maybe American citizens are, for some reason, just a lot more violent than other developed countries, and the cops need to be correspondingly forceful back at them? In fact the US does have higher rates of violent crime, but even that comparison doesn't bring America down in line with most other countries - the rate of fatal police shootings is still 4.6 times higher than Denmark, 3 times higher than Canada:
View attachment 67203944


Seems like almost every time there is a fatal shooting, the immediate response is "He had a gun" or "He was reaching for a gun" or "I thought he had a gun" or "Someone told me he had a gun." So obviously, that was the next thing I looked at. According to Wikipedia, America's gun prevalence sits at over 100 guns per 100 citizens; besides Serbia (75) and Yemen (55), no other country has more than 37 guns per hundred citizens. Surprisingly or not, that comparison does bring the US figures closer down to the others:
View attachment 67203945



Spreadsheet/working

Sources:
Why American Cops Kill So Many Compared To European Cops
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Cops get attacked, beaten, shot at, spit on, and have things thrown at them every single day in America.

But you add another pile on thread ?

Did you do any research regarding how many times cops are attacked while trying to do their jobs?
 

Mithrae

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Cops get attacked, beaten, shot at, spit on, and have things thrown at them every single day in America.

But you add another pile on thread ?

Did you do any research regarding how many times cops are attacked while trying to do their jobs?

Is it your opinion that extraordinarily high rates of fatal police shootings should go by without question or comment? If not, I'm not sure how you could possibly imagine that this is a 'pile on' thread. The past week has seen two highly-publicized incidents of American police fatally shooting people who by all appearances posed them no danger, and an even more vicious backlash attack against other police. But rather than look at a few media-hyped incidents or rely on anecdotes and generalizations, I think it's best to look at data in a broad context.

If you have some data regarding how many times cops are attacked while trying to do their jobs in America compared with other countries, then by all means post it and we can look at how well it compares with other variables like homicide rates and gun prevalence.

If not, maybe you could at least discuss the content of the OP?
 

PeteEU

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

And yet America is only 60% white to Canada's 80%

Eh? The black population of the US is 12%, the Asian is about 5%.. that is 17%. The rest is white... so 73% give or take a %.
 

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

Is it your opinion that extraordinarily high rates of fatal police shootings should go by without question or comment? If not, I'm not sure how you could possibly imagine that this is a 'pile on' thread. The past week has seen two highly-publicized incidents of American police fatally shooting people who by all appearances posed them no danger, and an even more vicious backlash attack against other police. But rather than look at a few media-hyped incidents or rely on anecdotes and generalizations, I think it's best to look at data in a broad context.

If you have some data regarding how many times cops are attacked while trying to do their jobs in America compared with other countries, then by all means post it and we can look at how well it compares with other variables like homicide rates and gun prevalence.

If not, maybe you could at least discuss the content of the OP?

You could start here........ (over 15,000 violent assaults against police)

National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Law Enforcement Facts


Then read this....... (over 1.1 million violent crimes in 2015)

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...me-stats-released/latest-crime-stats-released
 

Mithrae

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

And yet America is only 60% white to Canada's 80%

Immigrants to a new country face pretty much all of the same challenges regardless of their skin colour. Language can be a differentiating factor, but plenty of white immigrants don't speak their new home's language, and many others do. Prejudice can also be a differentiating factor; Irish, Italian and Greek migrants to countries like the US and Australia don't face the same kind of antipathy they did in much of the last century, but there are other prejudices coming to the fore these days. Hopefully there's not too much of that going on though. There certainly are issues of concern surrounding immigration, such as formation of ethnic ghettos and generally lower incomes of immigrant groups, both of which can contribute to higher crime rates, but since they've occurred historically with European immigration waves, it would be presumptuous to claim that skin colour is an issue here.
 

Mithrae

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

You could start here........ (over 15,000 violent assaults against police)

National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Law Enforcement Facts


Then read this....... (over 1.1 million violent crimes in 2015)

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...me-stats-released/latest-crime-stats-released

How do those figures compare to other countries? No-one would suggest that a police officer is wrong to shoot someone if they're about to be shot (and equally, I would hope that no-one suggests it's okay to kill a person for throwing a punch). The question here is not why do American cops kill people, it's why do they kill people 8 times more than Canadian cops or 18 times more than Danish cops? To answer that, we need comparative data between the countries.
 

Tigerace117

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

the chart shows we need to ban dumb cops.

No, the chart doesn't show that.

You still haven't answered my question, btw.

You ready to yet, or are you going to run away again?
 

katzgar

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Re: Some charts on fatal police killings

No, the chart doesn't show that.

You still haven't answered my question, btw.

You ready to yet, or are you going to run away again?


yes it does, look at it again.
 
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