Somali pirates receive record ransom for ships' release

[Coronado]

No I have not

It's up in the "Member Pictures" thread. I don't recall which page now, but you can search the thread by poster, I believe.

 

[Laila]

:3oops::3oops: I took my photo down a while ago

 

[Coronado]

:3oops::3oops: I took my photo down a while ago

I knew it was a good idea to save it. :devil:

 

[Diogenes]

I am not justifing anything. I am explaining the situation, I understand why they turned to piracy.

Good. Then you understand why they must be killed out of hand.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Good. Then you understand why they must be killed out of hand.

Only if the illegal fishing boats and their crews are blown out of the water and killed as well

 

[ecofarm]

You cant fish but you have boats, you turn to smuggling or to piracy

What kind of crap is that? False dichotomy crap.

Only if the illegal fishing boats and their crews are blown out of the water and killed as well

I wouldn't mind seeing evidence that foreign fishing, within the EEZ, caused the fish populations to collapse. It would not, of course, excuse piracy, but still interesting. Are there counter-arguments to the claim?

Anyway, killing illegal fishermen seems a bit harsh.

 

[Harshaw]

A region that is not likely for generations be ruled by a central government does not mean they are animals

That's shifting the goalpost, though. The statement was "ungovernable." Not "central" government, not "westernized government." "Ungovernable."

 

[Laila]

That's shifting the goalpost, though. The statement was "ungovernable." Not "central" government, not "westernized government." "Ungovernable."

Ungovernable in the sense without all the trappings of "Governance". I went through it already, you just did not respond to my post but you found the time to respond to Lord's? :roll:

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

What kind of crap is that? False dichotomy crap.

If you could no longer make a living fishing, but had fishing boats whatf would you do? Tourism is rather out given the region, leaving smuggling and piracy as rather strong options

I wouldn't mind seeing evidence that foreign fishing, within the EEZ, caused the fish populations to collapse. It would not, of course, excuse piracy, but still interesting. Are there counter-arguments to the claim?

Anyway, killing illegal fishermen seems a bit harsh.

Do you doubt the illegal fishing? Or do you doubt that overfishing can cause a drastic decline in fish populations (see cod fishery on Canada's east coast). Now I never said the fish population has collapsed, but given the better technology of the foreign illegal fishing boats compared to the Somali fishing boats, they would be able to catch fish easier then the Somali's a most likely leading to a reduced catch for the Somali fishermen. Reducing the ability to make a reasonable living fishing.

As for being harsh in killing the illegal fishermen, sure it is, so would be killing the somali pirates out of hand. Both are criminals, both are taking things that do not belong to them, just because one is more violent in nature does not excuse the other

 

[liblady]

None of that will work.
Drawing on past experiences means little because this is Somalia we are talking about. A whole new territory, none of the usual games work and lol attempting to use death/military use as a deterrent. After decades of death, it is pretty much common to the point of it isn't even noticed any more.
Targeting innocent Somali's will have the opposite affect, it will probably galvanise and radicalise the mass population and I would bet money Islamists will see an increase of soldiers and more pirates :shrug:
Besides, we all know US is too weak to do anything in Somalia considering it's unfortunate history. It can't even hold the fort in Afghanistan. It can only dream of taming Somalia - and Somalia would need to be tamed to stop piracy. Anarchy in land, piracy in sea.

I think people should just accept the fact pirates are here to say and suck it up and pay the ransoms. Not like it is unreasonable anyway and pirates so far, have held up their end of the deal. They release both the ships and hostages the second they recieve the money, that is why businesses still pay the ransoms. It's more cost effective and less risk to just pay and the majority of the time, the ransom is a very small amount of what the ship is worth.

i would ARM my ship, with men and guns. and kill the pirates in their tracks. period.

 

[Laila]

i would ARM my ship, with men and guns. and kill the pirates in their tracks. period.

:lamo

Good for you.
Ship owners and businessmen on the other hand, would not do that because it will drive up insurance 10 fold with the increased risk of violence.
Right now Pirates do not harm anything because of the presumption of no weapons on the ships or less likely. The second every ship is armed, it will be shoot to kill.

Not my problem tho, so why do I care. Its not like it is my ass on those ships :shrug:

 

[liblady]

:lamo

Good for you.
Ship owners and businessmen on the other hand, would not do that because it will drive up insurance 10 fold with the increased risk of violence.
Right now Pirates do not harm anything because of the presumption of no weapons on the ships or less likely. The second every ship is armed, it will be shoot to kill.

Not my problem tho, so why do I care. Its not like it is my ass on those ships :shrug:

so? i doubt the insurance costs what the ransoms do......and while you don't think pirates are doing any harm, i think you're wrong. i listed to the nav officer of the maersk (in person, he spoke to our small club) the first time it was taken and his experience was harrowing. we need to do something.

 

[Laila]

Ransom costs a small fraction of insurance and worth of oil tankers etc. That is why businessmen pay up without complaint

:lol:

Piracy will not be stopped with weapons. That is naivety and shows a grave misunderstanding of the issues.

 

[Harshaw]

Ungovernable in the sense without all the trappings of "Governance". I went through it already, you just did not respond to my post but you found the time to respond to Lord's? :roll:

I didn't see it, but it doesn't matter. It's still shifting the goalpost.

Of course, what you're describing in order to do it isn't anything resembling a "nation." And as such, it'll never be anything more than a mud pit.

 

[Harshaw]

Ransom costs a small fraction of insurance and worth of oil tankers etc. That is why businessmen pay up without complaint

:lol:

Piracy will not be stopped with weapons. That is naivety and shows a grave misunderstanding of the issues.

Piracy has always been stopped with weapons.

 

[Diogenes]

Piracy has always been stopped with weapons.

And only with weapons. Appealing to the better nature of a pirate has never worked, as far as I know.

 

[bub]

None of that will work.
Drawing on past experiences means little because this is Somalia we are talking about. A whole new territory, none of the usual games work and lol attempting to use death/military use as a deterrent. After decades of death, it is pretty much common to the point of it isn't even noticed any more.
Targeting innocent Somali's will have the opposite affect, it will probably galvanise and radicalise the mass population and I would bet money Islamists will see an increase of soldiers and more pirates :shrug:
Besides, we all know US is too weak to do anything in Somalia considering it's unfortunate history. It can't even hold the fort in Afghanistan. It can only dream of taming Somalia - and Somalia would need to be tamed to stop piracy. Anarchy in land, piracy in sea.

I think people should just accept the fact pirates are here to say and suck it up and pay the ransoms. Not like it is unreasonable anyway and pirates so far, have held up their end of the deal. They release both the ships and hostages the second they recieve the money, that is why businesses still pay the ransoms. It's more cost effective and less risk to just pay and the majority of the time, the ransom is a very small amount of what the ship is worth.

that is a good point, what is 12 or 15 millions compared to the cost of sending military patrol ships over there?

However, solutions have to be found in order to stop this, there has to be some kind of nation-building over there, that's the only way to end piracy I think.

 

[bub]

Piracy will not be stopped with weapons. That is naivety and shows a grave misunderstanding of the issues.

In the long term.

But ships could still defend themselves, for example if 2 or 3 soldiers boarded the ships and left when the dangerous passage is over, and if the ships did not navigate alone. That being said, it could end up costing more than the ransom costs, which was your initial point.

 

[Laila]

In the long term.

But ships could still defend themselves, for example if 2 or 3 soldiers boarded the ships and left when the dangerous passage is over, and if the ships did not navigate alone. That being said, it could end up costing more than the ransom costs, which was your initial point.

Exactly not to mention increase the risk. Hence the reluctance by businessmen to arm ships and the UK blocking of UN rules on ransoms.
Pirates are in essence businessmen. (Sure criminals but businessmen) They want to make money, the lack of weapons on the ships means that hostages are also viewed as precious cargo which will make their money and so protect and do not harm them (There are infact a set of rules for Pirates with a tribunal - imagine that. Which punish Pirates who break the rules). But the second every ship is armed, the hostages will be killed to protect themselves and the ships alone and cargo will become the commodity to make money.

Oh and saying that to support my poiny, there is already a kill on sight order for French and American Hostages precisely because of that.

 

[Laila]

that is a good point, what is 12 or 15 millions compared to the cost of sending military patrol ships over there?

However, solutions have to be found in order to stop this, there has to be some kind of nation-building over there, that's the only way to end piracy I think.

12 million has just been happening recently.

Last year it was only 5+ million. The price reflects the value of the cargo. If it is an oil tanker, it will naturally be high but still far lower than the true worth of the oil

We all know what happens when one attempts to nation build in Somalia. They fail.

This is a result of US bull**** foreign policy which has helped piracy and brought extremist and terrorists to Somalia (Way to score an own goal there US :thumbs
Ethiopia with US's help overthrew the only Government which brought relative peace to Somalia and stopped piracy. No way is it going to happen again

 

[Laila]

I didn't see it, but it doesn't matter. It's still shifting the goalpost.

Of course you didn't bother reading or seeing it.

This discussion is pointless if you won't even read the thread.

 

[Harshaw]

Of course you didn't bother reading or seeing it.

This discussion is pointless if you won't even read the thread.

Which Earth-shattering, irrefutable post are you referring to? Point it out.

 

[Laila]

Which Earth-shattering, irrefutable post are you referring to? Point it out.

Don't bother.

You have made it more than clear you can't be asked to read my posts. This discussion is over.

 

[Harshaw]

Don't bother.

You have made it more than clear you can't be asked to read my posts. This discussion is over.

You can pout all the way home if you want, Laila, but there are more than 70 posts in this thread and I was out for a couple of days, so I have no idea which post of yours you're talking about. If you want me to respond to it, point it out.

If you'd rather cry about it, that's fine, too.

 

[Laila]

Hm, It seems you deliberately did not read it and just missed it :/

One of the posts

Not generations. Centuries.

Many do not understand Somalia so always seek to judge how Somali's operated as uncivilized.
Somalia has only been a country for a few decades. We were never united. The whole EA region were filled with Somali's but we were never united into a "country" until the colonials came and split it and made borders.

Somali order comes from our historical legal code which has lasted centuries, the Xeer, which is interpreted by clan elders and informally enforced, mainly with ostracism being the key punishment. Islamic law was reserved mostly for matters of divorce and inheritance but was generally extremely weak.

Somali had a very "ordered Anarchy" for centuries. We had no centralized authority. That is why we revile the Western system where it is centralized and reject it.
The reason we reject it is because democracy is essentially split into two groups to Somalis. Those who rule and those who are ruled. That thought process is toxic to Somali tradition.

It was very democratic actually. Somalis would choose a Elder who was elected. He would then represent his clan when trouble occurred or when negotiations needed to occur with other clans.

When foreigners came ... for example when the British came. The British made a deal with each individual tribe leader for use of the port and signed an agreement with each one.
Xeer was a African rule of law that was attempted by the Italians to be wiped but thank god it survived in HOA but has been weakened.


Justice to Somali's is defined by terms of property rights. The law is compensatory rather than punitive. It focuses on compensating the victim rather than punishing the perpetrator.

It is very complex how Somali's do justice but I will try and explained, so bear with me.

There was almost no imprisonment for crimes in Somalia or wasn't and fines were extremely rare and any fine are not payable to any court or government, but directly to the victim.

So there was little need for police officers/law enforcement.
In Somali culture if a prominent public figure violates the law, he pays double what would be required of an ordinary person as they are expected more than anyone else to live up to the high standards. Somali's because xeer is based on property rights oppose any form of taxation (another reason why there will be no centralized Government)

Compensation requires the individual to be fully paid for their grievances.
This is where our clan system comes into play.
If the guilty person cannot pay the individual, his clan kin is responsible for paying it.
This has the effect of self policing their own clan. While on other continents like the US and Europe re-education and rehabilitation of criminals is typically a task of the government in Somali culture it is the responsibility of the family and clan to sort out their own and if the criminal continually repeats violating the law and the tab keeps falling on the clan. They can expel him, which in effect makes him a outlaw causing him to lose the protection of his clan.

The third aspect of Somali xeer is our Judicial services. Anyone can become a Judge in Somalia as long as he is not also religious and political. That is not allowed and breaks Somali traditional separation of religion from court and politics as long as they are aware if they break the law, they suffer double that of a normal person.

That is why Democracy goes against everything in Somali culture and centralized authority, we despise it. We despise any Government in any form in Somalia.

I'm sorry. I have probably bored everyone but one must understand Somalia before trying to think of solutions :3oops: