Solutions then

[BDBoop]

And as to the rest? " And since it's generally not an immaculate conception, what about all those men who will now be on the hook for child support of a baby they never wanted (and in this case, that makes two of them)."

Yes really.

 

[KTBarefoot]

Well in theory, with proper birth control methods the overall number of these babies would decrease right? But that aside, adoption is always a good option it seems like. We ought to ease restrictions on adoption in this country. Not to the point where anyone can just walk in and take a child of course, but don't make well qualified couples wait for years to adopt a child.

Well, hey, that's ducky, then. Will we quit screening adoptive parents altogether, or just let the inconvenient parts of the process slide? What about children who don't get adopted? Will we just warehouse them?

What if a biological mother decides to keep a child she really doesn't have the resources to support? Will you forcibly remove that child from her? Will you support increasing the resources available to her? I'm not seeing a lot of concrete answers here. So far most of you appear to bear out Barney Frank's characterization of "pro-lifers" as believing that life begins at conception and ends at birth.

 

[KTBarefoot]

Yes really. You asked us about our private Utopia. I'm not anti-choice, but I do believe abortion is killing an innocent human life. In my own Utopia, it wouldn't be necessary to do so because women would have the sense to prevent having to make that choice. Am I expecting too much from women? Yes.

Right, because women are the only ones who have sex and make babies. Oh, wait...

 

[MaggieD]

Well, hey, that's ducky, then. Will we quit screening adoptive parents altogether, or just let the inconvenient parts of the process slide? What about children who don't get adopted? Will we just warehouse them?

What if a biological mother decides to keep a child she really doesn't have the resources to support? Will you forcibly remove that child from her? Will you support increasing the resources available to her? I'm not seeing a lot of concrete answers here. So far most of you appear to bear out Barney Frank's characterization of "pro-lifers" as believing that life begins at conception and ends at birth.

The world didn't just start when you were born, KTBarefoot. Roe v Wade was decided in 1973. No one was forcibly removing children from their parents. No one was letting people indiscriminantly adopt children. We have more safety nets in place for single women than ever before in history.

 

[lizzie]

Right, because women are the only ones who have sex and make babies. Oh, wait...

In my Utopia, women have the responsibility to protect their own bodies. I don't view women as weak inferior humans who need someone to protect them. They can easily have the capability and means to make sensible decisions and protect themselves.

 

[BDBoop]

She was born earlier than I was, and that's saying a lot.

The world didn't just start when you were born, KTBarefoot. Roe v Wade was decided in 1973. No one was forcibly removing children from their parents. No one was letting people indiscriminantly adopt children. We have more safety nets in place for single women than ever before in history.

 

[BDBoop]

Protect their bodies from men?

In my Utopia, women have the responsibility to protect their own bodies.

 

[KTBarefoot]

I was born in 1952 and I remember the world before Roe v Wade, including women whose only choice was suicide. I remember receiving a handout in college including the useful information that trying to induce an abortion by using a vacuum cleaner would be fatal. I remember women my age having to have hysterectomies because of botched abortions. If you are going to call yourself pro-life, then kindly start remembering that your concern should go beyond the fetus.

 

[lizzie]

Protect their bodies from men?

Are you serious? In a discussion about pregnancy and abortion, it seems pretty logical to assume that what they should be protecting themselves against is pregnancy.

 

[BDBoop]

And pregnancy comes from where?

 

[prometeus]

Oh here we go. Is that you're contribution to this thread? Really? The only person who really knows if their birth control failed or not is the person who says it. Now why don't you post an informed opinion instead of attacking a poster?

It was not an attempt to contribute, only to point out that you are ill informed and posted drivel. Now if that bothered you I am sorry, I just call it as I see it and since you did not refute it, it is safe to conclude that I was correct. And no that was not attacking a poster, really, just a comment on the post.

 

[MaggieD]

@ KT -- Born in 1952. Then you surely know we live in a totally different society. I woman could only protect herself by getting her man to wear a condom. I don't know where all these "infertile" (ha!) males went, but now a woman can protect herself. Look, we are never going to convince each other that our positions are right. I don't understand why ProChoice people are so eager to convince ProLifers of their position. They will never do it.

As more and more women have abortions and embrace their choice, it will become ever more unlikely that Roe v Wade will be overturned. But those of us who still believe abortions are killing children will never change our minds. Why do you try soooo hard?

I cannot even imagine what a woman who's had an abortion thinks when she's 'finally ready' and has a child. And counts its little fingers and toes. And sees those trusting eyes looking up at her. One would hope a lightbulb would go off....but I don't know.

 

[ashley.hunt60]

I was born in 1952 and I remember the world before Roe v Wade, including women whose only choice was suicide. I remember receiving a handout in college including the useful information that trying to induce an abortion by using a vacuum cleaner would be fatal. I remember women my age having to have hysterectomies because of botched abortions. If you are going to call yourself pro-life, then kindly start remembering that your concern should go beyond the fetus.

If abortion should become legal, we would have to really pump up the police force to stop back-alley abortion, because no woman should die trying to remove a fetus with a vaccum cleaner. It's very disturbing because that is one of those things that are hard to stop. A women dying, along with the oh-so precious fetus, is a lose-lose sitution for both pro-lifers and pro-choicers. Before anyone thinks about crimalizing abortion, they need to figure out that puzzle. Because will as we may, unwanted pregnancies won't stop.

 

[MaggieD]

It was not an attempt to contribute, only to point out that you are ill informed and posted drivel. Now if that bothered you I am sorry, I just call it as I see it and since you did not refute it, it is safe to conclude that I was correct. And no that was not attacking a poster, really, just a comment on the post.

Are you twelve? When I want somebody to point out my drivel, I'll call my husband.

 

[OKgrannie]

In my private Utopia, women are smart enough to either prevent pregnancy, or stop doing what it takes to get pregnant.

In all of human history, when have people stopped having sex for ANY reasons?

 

[liblady]

LibLady? How are either you or I reading that quote incorrectly? Not 5%. Where is that coming from?

wiki.....sorry.

In the US it is estimated that 52% of unintended pregnancies result from couples not using contraception in the month the woman got pregnant, and 43% result from inconsistent or incorrect contraceptive use; only 5% result from contraceptive failure, according to a report from the Guttmacher Institute.[1] Contraceptive use saved an estimated $19 billion in direct medical costs from unintended pregnancies in 2002.[8]

Unintended pregnancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MaggieD]

@ LibLady-- Okay, I understand. Actually the stats aren't that different than the CDC. I didn't go back to your post that made me question that 5%. I must have misunderstood it. To say it another way, though, 5% of abortions are due to contraceptive failure; and a very large percentage come from them either not using a contraceptive or using it incorrectly. I'm thinking we can agree on that.

 

[digsbe]

My solution would be to criminalize abortion. Prosecute every woman who has one done after it is made illegal. Reform the adoption system to make it cheaper and less of a hassle to adopt kids. No more legalized murder, every child would have the right to live like we have, and families wanting to adopt children would be able to do so in a faster and more cost effective manner.

 

[KTBarefoot]

@ KT -- Born in 1952. Then you surely know we live in a totally different society. I woman could only protect herself by getting her man to wear a condom. I don't know where all these "infertile" (ha!) males went, but now a woman can protect herself. Look, we are never going to convince each other that our positions are right. I don't understand why ProChoice people are so eager to convince ProLifers of their position. They will never do it.

Um, society isn't all that different. Men are still trying to exercise control over women's bodies. Pharmacists who share your views are refusing to dispense birth control pills and emergency contraception or refer patients to other pharmacies, in contravention of the ethics of their profession. The largest entirely male-controlled hierarchy in the world says that any woman who has sex must do so without contraception and must carry to term regardless of circumstances, even if the fetus dies in utero. The only thing that has changed is that there are now more methods of contraception for fetus-worshipers to scream about. (BTW, the diaphragm was available long before 1952, but only to women who sported a wedding ring.)

As more and more women have abortions and embrace their choice, it will become ever more unlikely that Roe v Wade will be overturned. But those of us who still believe abortions are killing children will never change our minds. Why do you try soooo hard?

What makes you think we're trying to change your minds? You are allowed to believe whatever you want. What you may not do is codify your religious beliefs in the form of civil law, at least not in this country. If you think you'd be happier in a theocracy, I hear the weather is lovely in Iran and the Vatican City.

I cannot even imagine what a woman who's had an abortion thinks when she's 'finally ready' and has a child. And counts its little fingers and toes. And sees those trusting eyes looking up at her. One would hope a lightbulb would go off....but I don't know.

Well, that really shows your true colors. She has made a choice that someone has likened to a trapped animal that chooses to gnaw its foot off. Now you want her to sacrifice the rest of her life to satisfy your beliefs. And your assumption that no woman who has ever borne a child would ever have an abortion is (a) demonstrably false and (b) another interesting little window into your own psyche.

 

[KTBarefoot]

My solution would be to criminalize abortion. Prosecute every woman who has one done after it is made illegal. Reform the adoption system to make it cheaper and less of a hassle to adopt kids. No more legalized murder, every child would have the right to live like we have, and families wanting to adopt children would be able to do so in a faster and more cost effective manner.

In your utopia, will women who suffer miscarriages have to go to court to prove that it was a miscarriage and not an abortion? Will there be police investigations of every miscarriage? Will a woman who miscarries for any reason be charged with negligent homicide?

 

[digsbe]

In your utopia, will women who suffer miscarriages have to go to court to prove that it was a miscarriage and not an abortion? Will there be police investigations of every miscarriage? Will a woman who miscarries for any reason be charged with negligent homicide?

No, a natural miscarriage would not be prosecuted. Should everyone who dies have their death inspected for murder? If a woman leaves somewhere, had a miscarriage and shows signs that she had an illegal abortion preformed, then they should be prosecuted. If we take out the illegal abortion providers we can reduce the number of fetal murders.

 

[KTBarefoot]

No, a natural miscarriage would not be prosecuted. Should everyone who dies have their death inspected for murder? If a woman leaves somewhere, had a miscarriage and shows signs that she had an illegal abortion preformed, then they should be prosecuted. If we take out the illegal abortion providers we can reduce the number of fetal murders.

In some states, anyone who dies outside of a hospital has an autopsy regardless of the wishes of the family.

So how do you prove it was a natural miscarriage? Is the burden of proof on the woman? If it turns out she had an abortion and you prosecute her, does she do time? What about any children she already has? Do they get put in a warehouse along with the children not adopted by the zillions of waiting parents conjured up in your happy pink dream?

 

[ashley.hunt60]

In your utopia, will women who suffer miscarriages have to go to court to prove that it was a miscarriage and not an abortion? Will there be police investigations of every miscarriage? Will a woman who miscarries for any reason be charged with negligent homicide?

I wonder how that is working out for Utah...

 

[MaggieD]

Well, that really shows your true colors. She has made a choice that someone has likened to a trapped animal that chooses to gnaw its foot off. Now you want her to sacrifice the rest of her life to satisfy your beliefs. And your assumption that no woman who has ever borne a child would ever have an abortion is (a) demonstrably false and (b) another interesting little window into your own psyche.

Are you honestly telling me that the greater majority of women liken abortion to a trapped animal gnawing its own foot off? Oh, puleeze. I make no assumption that a woman whose ever borne a child would never have an abortion. That is your inference, not my implication. My opinion is that many women who've had abortions see that decision in a different light when they have their own wanted children.

I'm childless myself, by the way. By choice. Never had an abortion. Never been pregnant. Married a long time until my husband passed away. We made that decision -- and miracle of miracles I didn't have to have an abortion to make it happen.

What you may not do is codify your religious beliefs in the form of civil law, at least not in this country. If you think you'd be happier in a theocracy, I hear the weather is lovely in Iran and the Vatican City.

I didn't post this thread....a ProChoice user did. Helloooooo?? I'm not trying to force my beliefs on you by attacking you personally. You're doing that. And Postscript: My beliefs have nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Helloooooo againnnnn???

 

[Winston Smith]

Seriously, y'all. There are many, many childless couples waiting for every infant who's eligible to be adopted, regardless of ethnicity or health status. The solution is not that difficult.