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Socialized Healthcare Does Not Work

Johnny

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I have first hand knowledge of this.

I'm an American living in Japan. Japan has socialized healthcare. It's a very unfair system though.

What happens is if you don't have insurance or if your job doesn't offer insurance you can go to city hall and get insurance. Sound great doesn't it?

Here's the kicker. If your job offers insurance, you have to take it.

Japan taxes their workers a LOT. Trust me, I know. Another unfair thing is there is no refund at the end of the year. In fact I got a bill and had to pay $60. Errrr.

I'm paying all these extra taxes, plus mney is deducted for my insurance. I don't make that much

So now I'm paying my insurance plus other people's insurance.

That extra money could go to savings, groceries, things that my family need.

It's not a fair system.

Now remember, Japan is a much smaller country than the U.S.

Not to mention prices for healthcare precedire are much cheaper here.

There is no way this would work, at the national level in a country as large as the U.S. It just won't work. Maybe the states can try their own thng if the want.

Socialized medicine at the national level in the U.S. is going to fail.
 

spud_meister

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what you have to realise is no two health care systems are the same, Japan's in different to Norway's, which is different to Canada's, which is different to New Zealand's, so while one may not work very well in one country, another system in another country may work fine, and the US will set up a different system to the one in Japan, to deal with the culture and population differences, and it may or may not work, but there is no way to tell except to wait and see.
 

MaggieD

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I have first hand knowledge of this.

I'm an American living in Japan. Japan has socialized healthcare. It's a very unfair system though.

What happens is if you don't have insurance or if your job doesn't offer insurance you can go to city hall and get insurance. Sound great doesn't it?

Here's the kicker. If your job offers insurance, you have to take it.

Japan taxes their workers a LOT. Trust me, I know. Another unfair thing is there is no refund at the end of the year. In fact I got a bill and had to pay $60. Errrr.

I'm paying all these extra taxes, plus mney is deducted for my insurance. I don't make that much

So now I'm paying my insurance plus other people's insurance.

That extra money could go to savings, groceries, things that my family need.

It's not a fair system.

Now remember, Japan is a much smaller country than the U.S.

Not to mention prices for healthcare precedire are much cheaper here.

There is no way this would work, at the national level in a country as large as the U.S. It just won't work. Maybe the states can try their own thng if the want.

Socialized medicine at the national level in the U.S. is going to fail.
First, I would love to know what you PAY for your coverage. I also notice you say nothing about its quality. I have one friend from Canada and one from the UK. Both countries have UHC. Both people are extremely happy with their healthcare services and have had opportunity to use them. The only way UHC works is if everybody has to have it. Younger people often say, "I don't need it now. I don't want it. Don't make me buy it." But that's the only way the system works. The healthy help pay for the sick. That's the purest form of insuring anything. Farmers get together and all pay into a pot (many years ago) so that if one of their barns burnt down, it could be rebuilt.
 

VanceMack

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what you have to realise is no two health care systems are the same, Japan's in different to Norway's, which is different to Canada's, which is different to New Zealand's, so while one may not work very well in one country, another system in another country may work fine, and the US will set up a different system to the one in Japan, to deal with the culture and population differences, and it may or may not work, but there is no way to tell except to wait and see.
We already have a pretty fair glimpse into the future with the administration of Medicare/Medicaid. Bad health care, horribly overpriced...welcome to the future.
 

MaggieD

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We already have a pretty fair glimpse into the future with the administration of Medicare/Medicaid. Bad health care, horribly overpriced...welcome to the future.
Are you kidding me? Horribly overpriced to whom? My mom's Medicare costs her about $100/month. Her supplement costs about $225/month....for virtual first-dollar coverage. That's $325/month altogether. She's 83 years old. I personally pay $640/month for a $5,200 annual deductible. How cheap do you want it?

As to quality of care, she gets the finest medical care in the U.S. Where on earth do you live?
 

bub

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I have first hand knowledge of this.

I'm an American living in Japan. Japan has socialized healthcare. It's a very unfair system though.
Never been to Japan, but in Europe the result of "socialized healthcare" is that everyone can get access to healthcare. It may be expensive, but the principle is that richer people pay more so that even poor people can get some healthcare. So it's not unfair at all if you think that everyone has the right to get some healthcare.

What happens is if you don't have insurance or if your job doesn't offer insurance you can go to city hall and get insurance. Sound great doesn't it?

Here's the kicker. If your job offers insurance, you have to take it.
Not in Europe.

Japan taxes their workers a LOT. Trust me, I know. Another unfair thing is there is no refund at the end of the year. In fact I got a bill and had to pay $60. Errrr.

I'm paying all these extra taxes, plus mney is deducted for my insurance. I don't make that much

So now I'm paying my insurance plus other people's insurance.
That's the principle of a tax, that does not make it "unfair". It would be unfair if you had to pay more than other people who have the same income, or if there was a big problem about lazy people benefitting from the system.


That extra money could go to savings, groceries, things that my family need.
I think that everyone deserves some healthcare, and to do that, everyone needs to fund the system.

It's not a fair system.
You have to bring arguments to show that it is unfair.

Now remember, Japan is a much smaller country than the U.S.

Not to mention prices for healthcare precedire are much cheaper here.

There is no way this would work, at the national level in a country as large as the U.S. It just won't work. Maybe the states can try their own thng if the want.

Socialized medicine at the national level in the U.S. is going to fail.
So what? What difference does it make?
 
M

magenforts

Please, can you tell me couple of additional thinks all over this
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Are you kidding me? Horribly overpriced to whom? My mom's Medicare costs her about $100/month. Her supplement costs about $225/month....for virtual first-dollar coverage. That's $325/month altogether. She's 83 years old. I personally pay $640/month for a $5,200 annual deductible. How cheap do you want it?

As to quality of care, she gets the finest medical care in the U.S. Where on earth do you live?
That's the problem, her premiums are not anywhere close to the reality of what it takes to fund the Medicare program.

People like me are going to have to make up those short falls in the future.
Which means, higher premiums and less service because people now are to narrow minded and selfish to realize the true cost of these things.
 

Aunt Spiker

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I have first hand knowledge of this.

I'm an American living in Japan. Japan has socialized healthcare. It's a very unfair system though.

What happens is if you don't have insurance or if your job doesn't offer insurance you can go to city hall and get insurance. Sound great doesn't it?

Here's the kicker. If your job offers insurance, you have to take it.

Japan taxes their workers a LOT. Trust me, I know. Another unfair thing is there is no refund at the end of the year. In fact I got a bill and had to pay $60. Errrr.

I'm paying all these extra taxes, plus mney is deducted for my insurance. I don't make that much

So now I'm paying my insurance plus other people's insurance.

That extra money could go to savings, groceries, things that my family need.

It's not a fair system.

Now remember, Japan is a much smaller country than the U.S.

Not to mention prices for healthcare precedire are much cheaper here.

There is no way this would work, at the national level in a country as large as the U.S. It just won't work. Maybe the states can try their own thng if the want.

Socialized medicine at the national level in the U.S. is going to fail.
Your bigger issue is coming from Japan's regulations and non-healthcare issues (taxes, epenses, what they do with *your* money). . . not whether the healthcare is universal, socialized or considered a basic right.
 

samsmart

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Someone once told me a story about how healthcare in the United States works.

There was once a farmer who also owned several goats. One day he got a call from a lawyer asking if any of his goats were for sale. The farmer said he had only one more goat for sale. The lawyer said he'd pick up the goat tomorrow.

The farmer woke up early to get the goat ready to be picked up when he found out the goat had died in the middle of the night. When the lawyer arrived, he asked the farmer, "Well, can I have the goat anyways?" The farmer, who was a laid back sort, said, "Sure, I don't see why not." So the lawyer packed up the dead goat, loaded it up, and drove off with it.

A few days later the farmer saw the lawyer in a grocery store and asked him what he did with that dead goat. "I decided to hold a raffle," the lawyer said. "I sold a bunch of tickets, put the stubs all in a bucket, and pulled the winning number out. Whoever had that number won the goat."

"But didn't the winner complain that the goat was dead when he went to collect it?" the farmer asked.

"Well yes he did," the lawyer replied, "but he was the only one who complained so I refunded him the price of his raffle ticket."
 

MaggieD

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That's the problem, her premiums are not anywhere close to the reality of what it takes to fund the Medicare program. People like me are going to have to make up those short falls in the future.
Which means, higher premiums and less service because people now are to narrow minded and selfish to realize the true cost of these things.
Blaming the people because they are too narrow minded and selfish is ridiculous. Blame Congress!!
 

BWG

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MaggieD said:
As to quality of care, she gets the finest medical care in the U.S. Where on earth do you live?
This always makes me chuckle. I usually ask if they would be so kind as to direct me to the nearest 'Medicare/Medicaid' doctor or hospital.
 

sokpupet

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My parents love the shyte out of their medicare and get great medical care. I'm a nurse so I know:) Heck, my medicaid patients get fantastic care too!
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Blaming the people because they are too narrow minded and selfish is ridiculous. Blame Congress!!
People control the ballot box, not congress.
I've seen little opinion groups with elderly people being asked about paying more and/or losing services to secure medicare in the future.

They almost always say tough crap to us younger people.
That we'll have to pay for it.
 

WI Crippler

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People control the ballot box, not congress.
I've seen little opinion groups with elderly people being asked about paying more and/or losing services to secure medicare in the future.

They almost always say tough crap to us younger people.
That we'll have to pay for it.
We should also push back the retirement age. People shouldn't just be able to hit 65 and then live on the government dole. Make them continue to contribute to Medicare/SS even while they receive benefits. Christ, back in the day nobody ever quit working when they hit a specific age. They knew the value of hard work and that it never ends. Somehow, we "evolved" this notion that people shouldn't have to work past a certain age. And I say evolved mockingly. IMO, its the opposite. At some point, with medical care advancing, keeping people alive longer and with declining birthrates in Western countries, the majority of the population will be non-contributors, placing an even greater burden on contributors.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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We should also push back the retirement age. People shouldn't just be able to hit 65 and then live on the government dole. Make them continue to contribute to Medicare/SS even while they receive benefits. Christ, back in the day nobody ever quit working when they hit a specific age. They knew the value of hard work and that it never ends. Somehow, we "evolved" this notion that people shouldn't have to work past a certain age. And I say evolved mockingly. IMO, its the opposite. At some point, with medical care advancing, keeping people alive longer and with declining birthrates in Western countries, the majority of the population will be non-contributors, placing an even greater burden on contributors.
Definitely true.

The percentage of people who work in retirement has definitely declined a lot.
It's ridiculous to pay people to do nothing just because they reach an arbitrary age of finality.
 

VanceMack

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Are you kidding me? Horribly overpriced to whom? My mom's Medicare costs her about $100/month. Her supplement costs about $225/month....for virtual first-dollar coverage. That's $325/month altogether. She's 83 years old. I personally pay $640/month for a $5,200 annual deductible. How cheap do you want it?

As to quality of care, she gets the finest medical care in the U.S. Where on earth do you live?
Horribly overpriced to the people that actually have to PAY for it. You DO get of course that the medicare/ medicaid that is so affordable to your mom is PAID FOR by others...right? You GET of course that the medicare/medicaid system is horribly abused, right?

Geezus...if YOU paid for my boat, my homes, my toys, I would think they also were INCREDIBLY affordable...waddya say?
 

VanceMack

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This always makes me chuckle. I usually ask if they would be so kind as to direct me to the nearest 'Medicare/Medicaid' doctor or hospital.
I can direct you to every medicare/medicaid provider in three states if you would like. Most of them are contract providers...you know how that works? Take mental helth care services for example. They bid on the services, the contract gets awarded, the corporation pays for overhearhead and management, about half is put into actual services for providers and patients. They hire bare essential staff (and usually NOT the most skilled). They deny services at every opportunity. Many if not most of their clients are simply seen once a month and given med refills. When they have legit health care needs they are taken to see providers, usually after hours or on scheduled days where tens but sometimes hundreds que up to see the dr.

yeah...I know a little about who takes in what, how they get paid, and where the money goes. Do you?
 

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Personally, I don't know if socialized healthcare will work in the U.S. As been stated elsewhere, each country has a different system of healthcare that suits their culture. I don't know if socializing medicine will work.

However, there are a few healthcare reforms I think the government should do.

1) I am in favor of requiring people to get some form of healthcare when they reach the age of 18. This way, they can start paying into a health insurance company and start building up a fund for their medical expenses. No more getting insurance after you need it - everybody will get it before they need it in order to better spread out the costs of healthcare.

2) However, the health insurance companies should not have the power to drop their customers. If someone pays into the same health insurance company when they're 18, that company shouldn't be able to drop them when they reach 50 and start to use it. If we're going to let health insurance companies profit from the money their clients pay into it, then they should actually perform the service their clients paid them to do, and the government has the power to enforce it. Also, health insurance companies cannot refuse to pay for treatment for pre-existing conditions. If the government is going to force the people to get health insurance, which is only to their profit, then the government is going to force those health insurance companies to cover their clients.

3) No more requiring businesses to provide health insurance. I don't think businesses should pay for their employees' health insurance, or rather should not be forced by the government to do so. This is a great burden on small businesses, not all of whom can afford to provide health insurance coverage.

4) The only caveat to this is children. Children cannot help that they're too busy studying, playing, and generally being kids to afford health insurance. Children also can't help being born to poor parents. Therefore, I fully support socialized medicine for children, which may be supplemented with private insurance from their parents.

5) As a corollary to the above, I would be fine with limited forms of socialized healthcare. Among these are checkups and fully socialized healthcare for mental wellness, for dentistry and orthodontics, and for optometry. I think those are all health concerns that are so common and easily dealt with that here would be few problems in socializing those areas of medical treatment.
 

MaggieD

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People control the ballot box, not congress.
I've seen little opinion groups with elderly people being asked about paying more and/or losing services to secure medicare in the future.

They almost always say tough crap to us younger people.
That we'll have to pay for it.
Congress is out of control. People no longer control it. Even if, by some wild stretch of the imagination (and that's exactly what it is), we could begin to change CongressMEN and women, we can't fix the systemic problem. The system itself is too corrupt. Mrs. Smith may go to Washington, but she'll turn into Nancy Pelosi inside a year.

Oh, re those little focus groups? Ever see anyone raise their hands and say, "Yepper!!!! I wanna pay more!!!"
 

MaggieD

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Horribly overpriced to the people that actually have to PAY for it. You DO get of course that the medicare/ medicaid that is so affordable to your mom is PAID FOR by others...right? You GET of course that the medicare/medicaid system is horribly abused, right?

Geezus...if YOU paid for my boat, my homes, my toys, I would think they also were INCREDIBLY affordable...waddya say?
First, I was responding to your:

We already have a pretty fair glimpse into the future with the administration of Medicare/Medicaid. Bad health care, horribly overpriced...welcome to the future.
Medicare/Medicaid is horribly abused because our Congress doesn't care if it's horribly abused. If anyone cared, really cared, they'd pay the investigators $100K a year plus 10% of any fraud they uncovered. Watch 'em run. Watch the system clean up. Piece o'cake solution nobody wants.
 
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VanceMack

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First, I was responding to your:



Medicare/Medicaid is horribly abused because our Congress doesn't care if it's horribly abused. If anyone cared, really cared, they'd pay the investigators $100K a year plus 10% of any fraud they uncovered. Watch 'em run. Watch the system clean up. Piece o'cake solution nobody wants.
Maggie...it doesnt matter WHY it is abused...it matters THAT it is abused and there is no plan to FIX it. Instead of FIXING the problems we have, streamlining the processes, improving care to the needy, we created a new monster.
 

MaggieD

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Maggie...it doesnt matter WHY it is abused...it matters THAT it is abused and there is no plan to FIX it. Instead of FIXING the problems we have, streamlining the processes, improving care to the needy, we created a new monster.
THAT we agree on. It's really hopeless. But don't blame my mom!! ;-)
 

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Maggie...it doesnt matter WHY it is abused...it matters THAT it is abused and there is no plan to FIX it. Instead of FIXING the problems we have, streamlining the processes, improving care to the needy, we created a new monster.
Yeah, but anything can be abused. Medicare can be abused by people. Private health insuranc can be abused by people. If you're going to get rid of everything that can be abused, you'd be getting rid of everything. That's not realistic.
 

VanceMack

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THAT we agree on. It's really hopeless. But don't blame my mom!! ;-)
Never. Heck...Ive been saying forever I am FOR some form of health care...just not at the federal level...precisely BECAUSE of the abuses.
 
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