Socialized Democracy Is the Best Economic System There Is Today.

[ReformCollege]

One thing about France is that it's infrastructure is state of the art and with only minor repair would last for generations to come.

Compared to our infrastructure, I am extremely embarrassed.
I have recently been to both Manhattan and San Francisco. Our subways and trains are so old it made me remember black and white movies.
What is the number? Something like 70% and a hundred thousand of our bridges do not pass safety inspection?
Our Nation is crumbling and no one wants to fix it.
Our infrastructure will not last for generations, not even with major repair.
Our great grandparents and grandparents gave us the world... and we chose to piss on it.

I agree. If we weren't pissing away so much money on things like welfare and corporate tax breaks, public infrastructure would be an easy fix.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I have, as a matter of fact. Germany was pleasant (though I suppose it'd kind of have to be considering how much of the country they had to essentially rebuild from scratch following WW2), but France honestly struck me as being dirty, run down, and highly overrated in general.

Today, Europe only really thrives off of three things, and three things alone; the global reputation it garnered back in its glory days, the close alliances it shares with the United States, and its over-bloated standards of living.

Unfortunately for them, however; the reality of the situation is that the former is rapidly eroding away as the rest of the World passes the continent by, while the latter two might very well prove to be unsustainable if current global economic trends hold.

I was a soldier stationed in Germany too, ended up marrying a German and staying here. I used to be a big fan of Germany, until I got my first German paycheck, and my heart stopped. The tax burden here is beyond insane. Everything costs more than it does in the states, and just about every job other than the super low end pays less than the same job does in the states.

The only government service I'm getting here that I wouldn't get in the US is full medical (which both me and my employer still pay a lot for), but honestly that is simply because the medical system over here is structured to cost about half as much per head as it does in the states.

I took a HUGE pay cut coming here, and I'm honestly kind of regretting my decision.

 

[sangha]

Perhaps you haven't noticed the economic crisis they happen to be currently experiencing?

Most of Europe is actually significantly worse off than the United States where unemployment and slow economic recovery are concerned.

Economies primarily built to foster stability and socialist notions of "equality" and "fairness" above all else tend to kind of suck when it comes to adaptation and growth. Who knew!? Right? :roll:

All of these nations have experienced economic downturns and survived. We went through a great depression, an oil embargo and bush*'s financial disaster and survived. All you've accomplished is to demonstrate the stability of social democracies.

What have they done that was worthy of any kind of international recognition since the 1940s?

As far as I can tell, all they've done is lose a bunch of wars against former colonies, and rely on American lead organizations like NATO to protect them from the scary Russians to the East.

And maintained levels of political and economic stability, not to mention standards of living, that non socialized democracies are envious of.

 

[head of joaquin]

How's France doing?

Pretty well. It's the fifth largest economy on the planet and has 2 months vacation for most workers plus universal health care. Plus French women and better food than the US.

How are Walmart employees doing?

 

[head of joaquin]

And yet, still much worse then the U.S. At this rate, they won't be doing much better then everyone else for very long.

Yeah, hyperinflation is just around the corner. And Sweden will collapse too. The conservatives knownothings have been saying this for 50 years. Still haven't got it right.

What is France's GDP again?

 

[head of joaquin]

I was a soldier stationed in Germany too, ended up marrying a German and staying here. I used to be a big fan of Germany, until I got my first German paycheck, and my heart stopped. The tax burden here is beyond insane. Everything costs more than it does in the states, and just about every job other than the super low end pays less than the same job does in the states.

The only government service I'm getting here that I wouldn't get in the US is full medical (which both me and my employer still pay a lot for), but honestly that is simply because the medical system over here is structured to cost about half as much per head as it does in the states.

I took a HUGE pay cut coming here, and I'm honestly kind of regretting my decision.

Germany promotes investment not consumption. I thought that's what you conservatives wanted. Be careful what you ask for. The German economy looks a lot like what the US economy would look like if the conservatives had their way.

 

[head of joaquin]

Perhaps you haven't noticed the economic crisis they happen to be currently experiencing?

Most of Europe is actually significantly worse off than the United States where unemployment and slow economic recovery are concerned.

Economies primarily built to foster stability and socialist notions of "equality" and "fairness" above all else tend to kind of suck when it comes to adaptation and growth. Who knew!? Right? :roll:



What have they done that was worthy of any kind of international recognition since the 1940s?

As far as I can tell, all they've done is lose a bunch of wars against former colonies, and rely on American lead organizations like NATO to protect them from the scary Russians to the East.



Does either nation routinely spend 50% or more of its annual GDP on bloated welfare states?

I love how tea partiers think a higher standard of living is a bad thing.

More evidence that they want to take the US back to the good old days of 1880 when children worked in mines and only rich people had furniture.

 

[Harshaw]

Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca
I was a soldier stationed in Germany too, ended up marrying a German and staying here. I used to be a big fan of Germany, until I got my first German paycheck, and my heart stopped. The tax burden here is beyond insane. Everything costs more than it does in the states, and just about every job other than the super low end pays less than the same job does in the states.

The only government service I'm getting here that I wouldn't get in the US is full medical (which both me and my employer still pay a lot for), but honestly that is simply because the medical system over here is structured to cost about half as much per head as it does in the states.

I took a HUGE pay cut coming here, and I'm honestly kind of regretting my decision.

Germany promotes investment not consumption. I thought that's what you conservatives wanted. Be careful what you ask for. The German economy looks a lot like what the US economy would look like if the conservatives had their way.

You don't even know what you typed here, do you?

 

[joG]

Germany promotes investment not consumption. I thought that's what you conservatives wanted. Be careful what you ask for. The German economy looks a lot like what the US economy would look like if the conservatives had their way.

I am afraid, that that is pretty far from reality.

 

[Gathomas88]

I love how tea partiers think a higher standard of living is a bad thing.

More evidence that they want to take the US back to the good old days of 1880 when children worked in mines and only rich people had furniture.

To the contrary, standard of living in fine. I simply realize that it is not the end all and be all of a given society's existence that many Western European nations make it out to be.

 

[head of joaquin]

To the contrary, standard of living in fine. I simply realize that it is not the end all and be all of a given society's existence that many Western European nations make it out to be.

Yeah, we need to reign in the rich and their extravagant materialistic lifestyle, not to mention corporations' promotion of consumer culture.

Wait . . . that's not what conservatives are for!

It's somewhat hard to take conservative critiques of materialism and consumerism seriously.

 

[joG]

I have, as a matter of fact. Germany was pleasant (though I suppose it'd kind of have to be considering how much of the country they had to essentially rebuild from scratch following WW2), but France honestly struck me as being dirty, run down, and highly overrated in general.

Today, Europe only really thrives off of three things, and three things alone; the global reputation it garnered back in its glory days, the close alliances it shares with the United States, and its over-bloated standards of living.

Unfortunately for them, however; the reality of the situation is that the former is rapidly eroding away as the rest of the World passes the continent by, while the latter two might very well prove to be unsustainable if current global economic trends hold.

Probably I know Europe somewhat better than you do and am surprised how well you summed it up. :agree

 

[head of joaquin]

Probably I know Europe somewhat better than you do and am surprised how well you summed it up. :agddree

I always find the hatred of Europe, especially France, by conservatives telling. They can't stand societies where people are educated, well read, care about their situation, and are willing to take political action to make sure that a few rich people don't run everything.

That type of sensibility frightens the conservative mind and its dependence on ignorance and insecurity.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Germany promotes investment not consumption. I thought that's what you conservatives wanted. Be careful what you ask for. The German economy looks a lot like what the US economy would look like if the conservatives had their way.

No it doesn't. It promotes tax. It taxes you for EVERYTHING. Instead of blowing their money on a ridiculously bloated military, they spend it on trying to glue together the ridiculous notion of the euro.

There's nothing about the German system that promotes investment, as you are taxed so much that after your living expenses you don't have any leftover cash for anything. That's why America is still the king of the ring when it comes to innovation, we have the kind of exorbitant finances that allow us to invest in risky innovation.

Lastly, and most importantly, I'm not conservative, I'm libertarian. The only similarity I share with the conservatives is my belief that the government should be small and controlled, not the flamboyant imperialistic plutocracy it is today. In social issues I'm as egalitarian as it comes.

 

[American]

Much, much, much, much better than most of the rest of the world.

They suck, companies are leaving. Spain sucks too, all the southern countries suck.....as they always have. They're good at siestas and ****ing off.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...e-failed-leadership-of-hollande-a-903732.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ow-the-chickens-are-coming-home-to-roost.html

 

[head of joaquin]

No it doesn't. It promotes tax. It taxes you for EVERYTHING. Instead of blowing their money on a ridiculously bloated military, they spend it on trying to glue together the ridiculous notion of the euro.

There's nothing about the German system that promotes investment, as you are taxed so much that after your living expenses you don't have any leftover cash for anything. That's why America is still the king of the ring when it comes to innovation, we have the kind of exorbitant finances that allow us to invest in risky innovation.

Lastly, and most importantly, I'm not conservative, I'm libertarian. The only similarity I share with the conservatives is my belief that the government should be small and controlled, not the flamboyant imperialistic plutocracy it is today. In social issues I'm as egalitarian as it comes.

Yep, taxing consumption promotes investment by discouraging consumption. You're making my point.

One of the reasons the US has such a low investment rate is that we have ridiculously low taxes on consumption. Just look at gas taxes in Europe and the US. It isn't even close. So of course Europe has a lot lower consumption of gasoline than we do. It just follows. Europeans save more than us and we spend more than them. One driver of this result (which conservative purport to support) is high consumption taxes.

 

[joG]

I always find the hatred of Europe, especially France, by conservatives telling. They can't stand societies where people are educated, well read, care about their situation, and are willing to take political action to make sure that a few rich people don't run everything.

That type of sensibility frightens the conservative mind and its dependence on ignorance and insecurity.

I do not really know how "conservatives" think in these matters. I would presume that it is not that simple. I am not even sure whom you mean when you use that term.

 

[head of joaquin]

I do not really know how "conservatives" think in these matters. I would presume that it is not that simple. I am not even sure whom you mean when you use that term.

Well, you should pay more attention to what conservatives say, promote and vote for. The record is clear. Europhobia -- and Francophobia in particular -- is a constant obsession with rightwingers. Don't blame me for what they say.

 

[Dooble]

Ah. That title should make a few conservative heads explode.

But the very rules that conservatives say are the cures for all that economically ails us - the almighty Market - prove that socialized democracy is the very best economic system in the world today. Why? Because the market - like evolution - allows that the system that is the strongest and most adaptable is the system that will be the most successful...and what are the most successful systems today? All one need do is to look at what nations are part of the economic First World - they're all socialized democracies, except for a couple (hideously oil-rich) OPEC nations.

And here's the key point: if socialized democracy - with the social safety nets that libertarians decry - are so bad, then the first-world community wouldn't be almost solely comprised of socialized democracies. Even with the Great Recession, the socialized democracies of the world are still on top. Conversely, there's quite a few nations out there that essentially work on libertarian principles: weak government, low taxes (in practice if not on paper), and little or no regulation. And you know what? Every single one of those nations are third-world nations.

So that begs the question: If socialized democracy is SO bad, then why are we still on top after eighty years? And if libertarian small-government/low-tax/little-regulation economics are so good, then why are they all still third-world nations?

Hold on there, comrade.

Take a look at the link below, and tell me why we shouldn't return to our former greatness.

» During The Best Period Of Economic Growth In U.S. History There Was No Income Tax And No Fed Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

 

[joG]

Well, you should pay more attention to what conservatives say, promote and vote for. The record is clear. Europhobia -- and Francophobia in particular -- is a constant obsession with rightwingers. Don't blame me for what they say.

As I said, I am not sure, you are right. What is true is that phobias are inappropriate. The variety of Europes is, however, a pretty negative influence is correct. What is also right is that France was everything but an allie for many years. What is also true, is that the French seem to have learned from their destructive behavior running up to the Iraq invasion. They no longer seem to be the problem. Germany is a problem and dangerous.

 

[head of joaquin]

As I said, I am not sure, you are right. What is true is that phobias are inappropriate. The variety of Europes is, however, a pretty negative influence is correct. What is also right is that France was everything but an allie for many years. What is also true, is that the French seem to have learned from their destructive behavior running up to the Iraq invasion. They no longer seem to be the problem. Germany is a problem and dangerous.

Somehow I don't think of Germany as dangerous.

What will conservatives come up with next?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

And yet, still much worse then the U.S. At this rate, they won't be doing much better then everyone else for very long.

You're comparing one socialized democracy to another socialized democracy. How about comparing France to any - ANY! - of the nations that are *not* socialized democracies?

Hm?

 

[joG]

:2wave:

Somehow I don't think of Germany as dangerous.

What will conservatives come up with next?

Well maybe you don't know enough about the country. Afterall, you live on the other side of the world.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I wonder if it might be possible to add a little meat to your socialized democracy entree here. An opinion in nothing but a couple slices of bread. Interesting, but not very nutricious.

Meat?

AFAIK, there are only three nations that are part of the first-world community that are not socialized democracies - Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates. Maybe you can count Bahrain and Kuwait in on that, too...but all these have something in common: hideous amounts of wealth (directly or indirectly) from oil.

Without exception, ALL other first-world nations are socialized democracies. And without exception, ALL of the nations which work on libertarian principles are third-world nations.

So why is it that in the sixty-odd years after WWII, none of the socialized democracies of the first-world community have lost their status as first-world nations? After all, according to conservative dogma, socialist policies like social safety nets, comprehensive regulatory bureaucracies, comprehensive public transportation, and free K-12 education are paths down to economic doom. But in the past sixty years, this hasn't happened...whereas NONE of the nations with weak governments, low effective tax rates, and little (or no) regulation have even come close to first-world status.

Why is that?

The accuracy of my claims is obvious, and so is the question I presented. Please try to answer the obvious question.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Europe is not now, nor has it ever been, "on top," in any way, shape, or form since WW2.

Between their declining populations, slow growth economies, and virtually non-existent militaries, I really wouldn't even consider Western European style Socialized Democracies to be especially "successful," let alone "most successful." They are a self-contained microcosm of over bloated welfare states which would be completely unsustainable if they hadn't happened to ride the coat-tails of American global hegemony for the last half century to where they are today. If our fortunes decline, so will theirs.

Frankly, going by the logic you have elaborated upon above, it could actually be said that authoritarian capitalism is the "most successful" system, as authoritarian governments with laxly regulated economies - like China and India, for instance - are currently set to dominate the global economy for the rest of this century.

Really? Would you care to name the world's largest economy? Here's a clue: it ain't America.

According to the World Bank, the IMF, and the CIA World Factbook, the world's largest economy is the European Union. If you'll actually show enough intestinal fortitude to check your assumptions against the hard, cold numbers, you'll also find that several of the nations of the EU also have the world's highest standards of living, the lowest rates of poverty, and most of their populations have higher life expectancies than we do in America.

So...they have the largest economy, the highest standards of living, lowest rates of poverty, and longer life expectancies.

So would you care to show me how they're somehow 'not on top'?