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Socialized Democracy Is the Best Economic System There Is Today.

Jesus man, try to focus and stop pretending. You look silly.

Clearly the New Deal incorporated some "socialist" ideas. They worked well. Clearly the New Deal wasn't some transformation into a socialist economy.

So much for the silly OP and your silly argument that somebody said something about the New Deal.

ahh yes, i'm the one that's unfocused and silly, despite being consistent in what i say and not changing my story every time I type.. .sure, sure.... bring us more untruths, oh focused one.

describe these "Socialist" ideas in the New Deal for us.... let us debate and determine if they are, in fact, Socialist... and if they work or not.
you saying "clearly" means exactly nothing

I'm sorry your argument fell on it's face, but that's your fault for bringing a false argument to the table... not anyone else's..
the only "somebody" who says "something" about the New Deal we should ignore is ... you.... you haven't been right yet.
 
Have you ever wondered why several Canadian and Australian cities are on the top-twenty places to live in the world every single year? Having been to those places, I can see why...and I can see why so few American cities are on those same lists. I'd happily move to either one of those places except that I really don't like cold weather (as in Canada), and Australia would be too far away from family. Otherwise, I'd have no problem at all living in either nation - they're both safer, cleaner, better-educated - and simply better - places to raise a family than in most place in America.

So in return, why don't you visit these places, talk to the people, and find out for yourself if they're the oh-so-terrible socialist tyrannies you seem to think they are. That, btw, is one of the main reasons why I'm no longer a deeply Southern conservative - after having traveled the world, I found out that I had to UNlearn so much of the claptrap I'd been taught in my youth. If you go to these places and stay for a while, you find out that the people are not just educated and prosperous, but they're happy - and generally happier than we are here in America. When I was young, I was taught that America was the best place to live in the world, that I could never be happy anywhere else. Now I know better - and that's why (to the endless disappointment of my family in rural MS) I'm proudly liberal.

Oh, and one more thing - you ARE living in a fairly socialized nation. Ever hear of Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, minimum wage, safety and environmental protections for workers (thanks largely to unions), and free K-12 education? These are all socialist causes. So you can stay here and enjoy the socialism - especially after you turn 65 - or you can go to a nation where there's far fewer taxes and no safety net. Your only choices will be among third-world nations, but at least you won't have that oh-so-tyrannical socialism to deal with.....

a bit off topic, but why do you describe yourself as liberal, but use progressive as your lean.. and tout the benefits of socialism.. err Socialist democracy... or whatever the kids are calling it today?
 
good city is an oxymoron.

I thought that, too - where I grew up, my high school was in the next county over, and my graduating class was 42 people. If someone lived five miles away they were pretty much considered one's neighbor.

But now I know better, having seen the issue from both sides. People in cities generally live longer, healthier lives, and they are generally better-educated. The hard numbers back this up time after time after time. Don't get me wrong - there's some wonderful things about living in the country - been there, done that. But the numbers show that if you want your kids to have longer, healthier lives...move to the suburbs of big cities.
 
a bit off topic, but why do you describe yourself as liberal, but use progressive as your lean.. and tout the benefits of socialism.. err Socialist democracy... or whatever the kids are calling it today?

Progressives ARE liberal - just not so moderate as the run-of-the-mill, plain-vanilla liberal. You could call it the left-wing's not-quite-as-extreme equivalent of the Right's libertarians. And Progressives accept quite a few (though certainly not all) tenets of social democracy. What's funny is that every single conservative out there who accepts and fights to protect Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and free K-12 education are standing up for socialist ideals, too.

But thank you for asking - curiosity may have killed the cat, but I'm still positive that it's one of our greatest gifts.
 
a bit off topic, but why do you describe yourself as liberal, but use progressive as your lean.. and tout the benefits of socialism.. err Socialist democracy... or whatever the kids are calling it today?

Oh, and one more thing - like libertarians, we aren't hidebound to some kind of dogma. There's libertarians who hold wildly different beliefs, and so it goes with progressives. As for myself, I'm strongly pro-nuclear power, pro-NSA, anti-Manning, anti-Snowden...but I'm still quite progressive, even though most progressives would be horrified at all those (especially the NSA part). I'm all for LGBT rights and equality, abortion rights, slashing the Defense budget (beginning with MY beloved aircraft carriers - it's a retired Navy thing), keeping religion out of schools (even though I'm quite Christian), free education all the way through college, universal single-payer health care...and I believe the government should play - must play - the biggest role when it comes to providing opportunities for people to rise above their station, and to help those who are down - which is why I'm not afraid of higher taxes, which are rightly likened to the price of admission to life in a first-world nation.

I've heard libertarians agree with all those except for the last four, which every libertarian I've ever seen staunchly oppose. So you can stop gagging now. :D
 
Oh, and one more thing - like libertarians, we aren't hidebound to some kind of dogma. There's libertarians who hold wildly different beliefs, and so it goes with progressives. As for myself, I'm strongly pro-nuclear power, pro-NSA, anti-Manning, anti-Snowden...but I'm still quite progressive, even though most progressives would be horrified at all those (especially the NSA part). I'm all for LGBT rights and equality, abortion rights, slashing the Defense budget (beginning with MY beloved aircraft carriers - it's a retired Navy thing), keeping religion out of schools (even though I'm quite Christian), free education all the way through college, universal single-payer health care...and I believe the government should play - must play - the biggest role when it comes to providing opportunities for people to rise above their station, and to help those who are down - which is why I'm not afraid of higher taxes, which are rightly likened to the price of admission to life in a first-world nation.

I've heard libertarians agree with all those except for the last four, which every libertarian I've ever seen staunchly oppose. So you can stop gagging now. :D

Wow, your world view is twisted.

You think the GOVERNMENT, not the individual should be the primary provider of "opportunities" and you think the right way to go is to grant un-constitutional powers ( and your Navy retired ? You should be ashamed ) to a massive bureaucracy so they can offer "FREE" healthcare and free " college education " and to pay for this you want to " raise taxes" on the middle class ?


Because Liberal Democrats don't tax the poor and " the rich " will simply MOVE !!! I mean really, either their money or themselves so the middle class is the only people left with any taxable income. Tax the Corporations then ? Hell why don't we drive all of our jobs over seas ?

And NO Christian I know argues for a w omens right to kill her unborn child. Where did you get your Bible ? From the DNC ?

And lets forget the economic implications of your short sighted and foolish plan which would be profound and not in a good way. The fact you think the math even comes close to adding up is proof enough that Liberal progressivism is a ideological cancer. All you argue for is a sentiment that can't be quantified in real world terms.

Look your idiot President has already blown through 7 TRILLION dollars, and what do we have to show for it ? Nada.....

But your'e going to finance free health care and free college education with " tax increases "? Or a cut in defense ?

IF you were in the Navy you would be well aware of what happens in this world when the United States shows weakness. Either by cutting military spending or electing ass clowns with no leadership qualities.

( Obama and Carter ) From our Hostages in Iran to 9/11. ( we can thank Gorelick and Clinton for that )
 
Wow, your world view is twisted.

You think the GOVERNMENT, not the individual should be the primary provider of "opportunities" and you think the right way to go is to grant un-constitutional powers ( and your Navy retired ? You should be ashamed ) to a massive bureaucracy so they can offer "FREE" healthcare and free " college education " and to pay for this you want to " raise taxes" on the middle class ?

Well, seeing as how this is how the most successful nations of the world ALREADY work, then...YES. It's like this, guy - you might not like the guys who win the most World Series...but if you're a betting man, you're still going to bet on the ones who win the most. Like most people outside the Big Apple, I hate the Yankees - but I'm not stupid enough to bet against them. Likewise, you may hate Big Government with every fiber of your being...but the most successful nations on the planet are almost without exception the very type you h ate the most.

Because Liberal Democrats don't tax the poor and " the rich " will simply MOVE !!! I mean really, either their money or themselves so the middle class is the only people left with any taxable income. Tax the Corporations then ? Hell why don't we drive all of our jobs over seas ?

Really? The rich will simply 'move'? Back in the 1950's, our top marginal tax rate was NINETY PERCENT. But did our rich just 'move away' to tax havens? No. Instead, they put their money back into their businesses - and so didn't have to pay that tax - and everyone profited as a result.

And NO Christian I know argues for a w omens right to kill her unborn child. Where did you get your Bible ? From the DNC ?

Actually, I find that most people who claim to be Christian aren't aware that Jesus was really much closer to socialism than to democracy. But then, I find that most people who claim to be Christian aren't Christian at all - for instance, if you really dig into the Greek, the Hebrew, and the Aramaic, there's no hard Biblical proof that Jesus is God (nor a 'mighty God' as the JW's claim) - quite the opposite, in fact.

When it comes to abortion, who are you to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body? And did you see the point earlier where I said that I've been a Foster parent of medically-fragile children for fifteen years? The one who's been with us the whole time has fetal drug syndrome (and we had one with fetal alcohol syndrome) - which means he breathes through a trach tube, eats through a g-tube, has rods in his back, has serious seizure disorders, has a cleft palate, and cannot communicate with us...and until he turned 18, it cost the state taxpayers a quarter million dollars a year to take care of him - now it's about half that, since his nursing hours have been slashed.

Anyway, he'll need this completely taxpayer-funded care all his life - and he may well outlive me. He'll never have a job, never have a family, will always need 100% care. And this has to do with the abortion argument how? It's not the argument about the taxes - that's beside the point. The REAL argument is that if the pro-birth crowd really cared about the unborn, they'd be out there doing their utmost to keep pregnant women from drinking alcohol or taking drugs, so that children like my Foster child wouldn't be born with absolutely unnecessary birth defects, to live a life of loneliness and physical misery (not to mention the very real drag on state resources). When I see the pro-birth crowd going out there to the ghettos and poverty-stricken to prevent tragedies like those of my Foster child, then I'll pay attention to them. But not before.

And lets forget the economic implications of your short sighted and foolish plan which would be profound and not in a good way. The fact you think the math even comes close to adding up is proof enough that Liberal progressivism is a ideological cancer. All you argue for is a sentiment that can't be quantified in real world terms.

Except for the small fact that ALL the first-world democracies already work this way - including America, if to a lesser extent than the others do. Again, it's like you're claiming that the way that the Chicago Cubs are run is the best way to win the World Series, and the way the Yankees win the World Series is the way to the dustbin of history.

Look your idiot President has already blown through 7 TRILLION dollars, and what do we have to show for it ? Nada.....

Hm. Let me see here - our federal tax burden is lower NOW than at any time since the early 1950's, than under Bush 43, Bush 41, Reagan, Nixon, OR Eisenhower. He was handed an economic s**t sandwich when he took office, and since its nadir two months afterward, the Dow Jones has more than doubled. The 2009 budget was written by Bush 43...and since that budget, the deficit has been cut by about 40% IIRC. He got us out of Iraq, and will have us out of Afghanistan next year. He got bin Laden. He got a patently REPUBLICAN idea - the Individual Mandate - passed. AND he did all this while being faced with the most obstructive Congress since the Civil War.

Hell, guy, if he'd been Republican, you'd have been calling him the Second Coming of Reagan. But since he he's got a (D) after his name, well, nothing he's done now or may do in the future could ever, ever be a good thing.

But your'e going to finance free health care and free college education with " tax increases "? Or a cut in defense ?

It works for the rest of the first-world democracies - ask any Australian if they want to give up their health care - and ask any German if they want to give up their largely free education through college. And if you'll look, their economies are not doing badly at all.

IF you were in the Navy you would be well aware of what happens in this world when the United States shows weakness. Either by cutting military spending or electing ass clowns with no leadership qualities.

*chuckle* - and I was happy to see the end of Don't-Ask, Don't-Tell, too.

( Obama and Carter ) From our Hostages in Iran to 9/11. ( we can thank Gorelick and Clinton for that )

You mean the 9/11 that Bush 43 was warned about several times in his daily intelligence briefings? And when it comes to Iran, I really can't blame them. Now while your head is exploding, how would YOU feel about Iran if, say, Iran was the most powerful nation in the world, and Iran had come over here and engineered a coup of our democratically-elected government and replaced it with a monarchy? Because that's what we did to Iran back in the 1950's.
 
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You want taxes? Make taxes FAIR. A federal sales tax, no income tax. And companies not exempt from sales tax on purchases as they are now.
Want to give the american'ts a leg up?
Make work camps like FDR did. Have them improve the countries infrastructure.
On welfare? Get thee to a work camp. They will have communal child care and a couple of hours mandatory classes to upgrade education IN THE EVENINGS after work!

That's what ambitious people do. Night school after work.

The american'ts seem to lack direction. Give them DIRECTIONS.
 
Well, seeing
as how this is how the most successful nations of the world ALREADY work, then...YES. It's like this, guy - you might not like the guys who win the most World Series...but if you're a betting man, you're still going to bet on the ones who win the most. Like most people outside the Big Apple, I hate the Yankees - but I'm not stupid enough to bet against them. Likewise, you may hate Big Government with every fiber of your being...but the most successful nations on the planet are almost without exception the very type you h ate the most.



Really? The rich will simply 'move'? Back in the 1950's, our top marginal tax rate was NINETY PERCENT. But did our rich just 'move away' to tax havens? No. Instead, they put their money back into their businesses - and so didn't have to pay that tax - and everyone profited as a result.



Actually, I find that most people who claim to be Christian aren't aware that Jesus was really much closer to socialism than to democracy. But then, I find that most people who claim to be Christian aren't Christian at all - for instance, if you really dig into the Greek, the Hebrew, and the Aramaic, there's no hard Biblical proof that Jesus is God (nor a 'mighty God' as the JW's claim) - quite the opposite, in fact.

When it comes to abortion, who are you to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body? And did you see the point earlier where I said that I've been a Foster parent of medically-fragile children for fifteen years? The one who's been with us the whole time has fetal drug syndrome (and we had one with fetal alcohol syndrome) - which means he breathes through a trach tube, eats through a g-tube, has rods in his back, has serious seizure disorders, has a cleft palate, and cannot communicate with us...and until he turned 18, it cost the state taxpayers a quarter million dollars a year to take care of him - now it's about half that, since his nursing hours have been slashed.

Anyway, he'll need this completely taxpayer-funded care all his life - and he may well outlive me. He'll never have a job, never have a family, will always need 100% care. And this has to do with the abortion argument how? It's not the argument about the taxes - that's beside the point. The REAL argument is that if the pro-birth crowd really cared about the unborn, they'd be out there doing their utmost to keep pregnant women from drinking alcohol or taking drugs, so that children like my Foster child wouldn't be born with absolutely unnecessary birth defects, to live a life of loneliness and physical misery (not to mention the very real drag on state resources). When I see the pro-birth crowd going out there to the ghettos and poverty-stricken to prevent tragedies like those of my Foster child, then I'll pay attention to them. But not before.



Except for the small fact that ALL the first-world democracies already work this way - including America, if to a lesser extent than the others do. Again, it's like you're claiming that the way that the Chicago Cubs are run is the best way to win the World Series, and the way the Yankees win the World Series is the way to the dustbin of history.



Hm. Let me see here - our federal tax burden is lower NOW than at any time since the early 1950's, than under Bush 43, Bush 41, Reagan, Nixon, OR Eisenhower. He was handed an economic s**t sandwich when he took office, and since its nadir two months afterward, the Dow Jones has more than doubled. The 2009 budget was written by Bush 43...and since that budget, the deficit has been cut by about 40% IIRC. He got us out of Iraq, and will have us out of Afghanistan next year. He got bin Laden. He got a patently REPUBLICAN idea - the Individual Mandate - passed. AND he did all this while being faced with the most obstructive Congress since the Civil War.

Hell, guy, if he'd been Republican, you'd have been calling him the Second Coming of Reagan. But since he he's got a (D) after his name, well, nothing he's done now or may do in the future could ever, ever be a good thing.



It works for the rest of the first-world democracies - ask any Australian if they want to give up their health care - and ask any German if they want to give up their largely free education through college. And if you'll look, their economies are not doing badly at all.



*chuckle* - and I was happy to see the end of Don't-Ask, Don't-Tell, too.



You mean the 9/11 that Bush 43 was warned about several times in his daily intelligence briefings? And when it comes to Iran, I really can't blame them. Now while your head is exploding, how would YOU feel about Iran if, say, Iran was the most powerful nation in the world, and Iran had come over here and engineered a coup of our democratically-elected government and replaced it with a monarchy? Because that's what we did to Iran back in the 1950's.

Lol...what the hell is wrong with you ?

What did you do in the Navy ? Lemme guess.

You were a cook. Right ?

Why cant you be honest ?

Please post how many people actually PAID those top marginal rates back in the 50's.

Cmon, I'll give you the chance to come clean because the data is out there.
 
The USA is the ONLY individualist country ever existed. And at the beginning of WWII was about as much a super power as Mexico is today. No other country came as far and as fast as the USA, but collectivists just can't stand for ONE country to be different.

Well, socialists, I hope you are willing to die for your beliefs. Because THAT is what it will take to win.
Freedom lovers ARE willing to put THEIR lives on the line. Again.
 
So what? An overly-inflated standard of living doesn't count for much if it turns out to ultimately be unsustainable.

The simple fact of the matter is that Europe is currently "coasting" of off past glories, and has been doing so for quite some time.

They have an almost "Hobbit like" preoccupation with creature comforts which happens to make their nations rather pleasant, but that's really about all they can boast in today's world.

The only governments that have proven to be "unsustainable" are those that do not pay attention to the needs of the people. The USSR comes to mind.
 
The only governments that have proven to be "unsustainable" are those that do not pay attention to the needs of the people. The USSR comes to mind.

Ironic, considering the fact that the USSR basically took it upon itself to cater to every need of its people.

It was hardly their fault that their wildly ineffectual Communist economic system simply wasn't up to the task. None are. :lol:
 
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Lol...what the hell is wrong with you ?

I'm hardheaded and keep pretending that I can actually get conservatives to understand what should be common sense.

What did you do in the Navy ? Lemme guess. You were a cook. Right ?

Actually, I was a machinist's mate - an engineer. But if you'll talk to retired military about jobs in the civilian world - especially administrative jobs - you'll often find that if they hadn't done that job at some point in their careers, they've done something closely related to that job.

Why cant you be honest ?

Well, seeing as how you've made up your mind that liberals in general are all lazy, lying sacks of subhuman excrement, there's not a whole lot I can tell you to convince you otherwise.

Please post how many people actually PAID those top marginal rates back in the 50's.

In my writings here and elsewhere, I've stated that very few if any of them actually PAID those top marginal rates. Why? Because most of them, instead of paying taxes to the government, would have sunk their profits back into their companies, thereby improving their infrastructure and even the pay of their workers...and the companies grow stronger as a whole. And America did QUITE well back in the 1950's, thank you very much.

Come to think of it, we had about ten years of 90% top marginal tax rates, followed by twenty years of 70% top marginal tax rates...and how many economic crises did we have that compared even to the 1982 recession under Reagan, much less the Great Recession? NONE.

NONE, guy - NONE. ZERO, ZIP, NADA when it came to truly major recessions for almost THIRTY YEARS when our top marginal tax rates were from 70-90%. But I'm sure you'll find a way to ignore this little fact, too.

Cmon, I'll give you the chance to come clean because the data is out there.

You mean the mountains of hard data y'all ignore because it flies in the face of conservative dogma?
 
I'm hardheaded and keep pretending that I can actually get conservatives to understand what should be common sense.



Actually, I was a machinist's mate - an engineer. But if you'll talk to retired military about jobs in the civilian world - especially administrative jobs - you'll often find that if they hadn't done that job at some point in their careers, they've done something closely related to that job.



Well, seeing as how you've made up your mind that liberals in general are all lazy, lying sacks of subhuman excrement, there's not a whole lot I can tell you to convince you otherwise.



In my writings here and elsewhere, I've stated that very few if any of them actually PAID those top marginal rates. Why? Because most of them, instead of paying taxes to the government, would have sunk their profits back into their companies, thereby improving their infrastructure and even the pay of their workers...and the companies grow stronger as a whole. And America did QUITE well back in the 1950's, thank you very much.

Come to think of it, we had about ten years of 90% top marginal tax rates, followed by twenty years of 70% top marginal tax rates...and how many economic crises did we have that compared even to the 1982 recession under Reagan, much less the Great Recession? NONE.

NONE, guy - NONE. ZERO, ZIP, NADA when it came to truly major recessions for almost THIRTY YEARS when our top marginal tax rates were from 70-90%. But I'm sure you'll find a way to ignore this little fact, too.



You mean the mountains of hard data y'all ignore because it flies in the face of conservative dogma?

You haven't posted "hard data", you've posted your opinion and some data out of context.

I mean really, your trying to say more than 500 hundred people in the 50s payed those top marginal rates ?

Again, why can't you be honest ? Why do you post data with out context..( I know why so it's a rhetorical question really )

And NOW your bringing up the recession under Reagan but skipping over Carter's incompetence....unreal.

Is it painful for you to be objective ?
 
Ironic, considering the fact that the USSR basically took it upon itself to cater to every need of its people.

It was hardly their fault that their wildly ineffectual Communist economic system simply wasn't up to the task. None are. :lol:

You believe their propaganda? No wonder you are a Conservative. you would believe anything. Dictatorships do not cater to the needs of the people, that's why they are dictators. Duh.
 
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