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Socialized Democracy Is the Best Economic System There Is Today.

Glen Contrarian

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Ah. That title should make a few conservative heads explode.

But the very rules that conservatives say are the cures for all that economically ails us - the almighty Market - prove that socialized democracy is the very best economic system in the world today. Why? Because the market - like evolution - allows that the system that is the strongest and most adaptable is the system that will be the most successful...and what are the most successful systems today? All one need do is to look at what nations are part of the economic First World - they're all socialized democracies, except for a couple (hideously oil-rich) OPEC nations.

And here's the key point: if socialized democracy - with the social safety nets that libertarians decry - are so bad, then the first-world community wouldn't be almost solely comprised of socialized democracies. Even with the Great Recession, the socialized democracies of the world are still on top. Conversely, there's quite a few nations out there that essentially work on libertarian principles: weak government, low taxes (in practice if not on paper), and little or no regulation. And you know what? Every single one of those nations are third-world nations.

So that begs the question: If socialized democracy is SO bad, then why are we still on top after eighty years? And if libertarian small-government/low-tax/little-regulation economics are so good, then why are they all still third-world nations?
 

ReformCollege

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Ah. That title should make a few conservative heads explode.

But the very rules that conservatives say are the cures for all that economically ails us - the almighty Market - prove that socialized democracy is the very best economic system in the world today. Why? Because the market - like evolution - allows that the system that is the strongest and most adaptable is the system that will be the most successful...and what are the most successful systems today? All one need do is to look at what nations are part of the economic First World - they're all socialized democracies, except for a couple (hideously oil-rich) OPEC nations.

And here's the key point: if socialized democracy - with the social safety nets that libertarians decry - are so bad, then the first-world community wouldn't be almost solely comprised of socialized democracies. Even with the Great Recession, the socialized democracies of the world are still on top. Conversely, there's quite a few nations out there that essentially work on libertarian principles: weak government, low taxes (in practice if not on paper), and little or no regulation. And you know what? Every single one of those nations are third-world nations.

So that begs the question: If socialized democracy is SO bad, then why are we still on top after eighty years? And if libertarian small-government/low-tax/little-regulation economics are so good, then why are they all still third-world nations?
How's France doing?
 

ReformCollege

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Much, much, much, much better than most of the rest of the world.
And yet, still much worse then the U.S. At this rate, they won't be doing much better then everyone else for very long.
 

sangha

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And yet, still much worse then the U.S. At this rate, they won't be doing much better then everyone else for very long.
The fact that one socialized democracy is doing better than another doesnt show that socialized democracy doesn't work

The fact that all of the worlds most rposperous nations are socialized democracies proves that it does.
 

ocean515

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Ah. That title should make a few conservative heads explode.

But the very rules that conservatives say are the cures for all that economically ails us - the almighty Market - prove that socialized democracy is the very best economic system in the world today. Why? Because the market - like evolution - allows that the system that is the strongest and most adaptable is the system that will be the most successful...and what are the most successful systems today? All one need do is to look at what nations are part of the economic First World - they're all socialized democracies, except for a couple (hideously oil-rich) OPEC nations.

And here's the key point: if socialized democracy - with the social safety nets that libertarians decry - are so bad, then the first-world community wouldn't be almost solely comprised of socialized democracies. Even with the Great Recession, the socialized democracies of the world are still on top. Conversely, there's quite a few nations out there that essentially work on libertarian principles: weak government, low taxes (in practice if not on paper), and little or no regulation. And you know what? Every single one of those nations are third-world nations.

So that begs the question: If socialized democracy is SO bad, then why are we still on top after eighty years? And if libertarian small-government/low-tax/little-regulation economics are so good, then why are they all still third-world nations?
I wonder if it might be possible to add a little meat to your socialized democracy entree here. An opinion in nothing but a couple slices of bread. Interesting, but not very nutricious.
 

Gathomas88

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Ah. That title should make a few conservative heads explode.

But the very rules that conservatives say are the cures for all that economically ails us - the almighty Market - prove that socialized democracy is the very best economic system in the world today. Why? Because the market - like evolution - allows that the system that is the strongest and most adaptable is the system that will be the most successful...and what are the most successful systems today? All one need do is to look at what nations are part of the economic First World - they're all socialized democracies, except for a couple (hideously oil-rich) OPEC nations.

And here's the key point: if socialized democracy - with the social safety nets that libertarians decry - are so bad, then the first-world community wouldn't be almost solely comprised of socialized democracies. Even with the Great Recession, the socialized democracies of the world are still on top. Conversely, there's quite a few nations out there that essentially work on libertarian principles: weak government, low taxes (in practice if not on paper), and little or no regulation. And you know what? Every single one of those nations are third-world nations.

So that begs the question: If socialized democracy is SO bad, then why are we still on top after eighty years? And if libertarian small-government/low-tax/little-regulation economics are so good, then why are they all still third-world nations?
Europe is not now, nor has it ever been, "on top," in any way, shape, or form since WW2.

Between their declining populations, slow growth economies, and virtually non-existent militaries, I really wouldn't even consider Western European style Socialized Democracies to be especially "successful," let alone "most successful." They are a self-contained microcosm of over bloated welfare states which would be completely unsustainable if they hadn't happened to ride the coat-tails of American global hegemony for the last half century to where they are today. If our fortunes decline, so will theirs.

Frankly, going by the logic you have elaborated upon above, it could actually be said that authoritarian capitalism is the "most successful" system, as authoritarian governments with laxly regulated economies - like China and India, for instance - are currently set to dominate the global economy for the rest of this century.
 

sangha

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Europe is not now, nor have they even been, "on top," in any way, shape, or form since WW2.
Europe has been, and continues to be, the continent with nations who are at the top of the list when it comes to standard of living and stability
 

Hard Truth

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People tend to forget that in the USA we have socialized water, fire protection, police, schools, libraries, roads, etc. If we added health care and had minimum wages that were living wages we would have an even better country. I don´t think we need to socialize anything else, but it may be necessary for broadband (internet etc. access) in the future.
 

Fisher

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Ah. That title should make a few conservative heads explode.

But the very rules that conservatives say are the cures for all that economically ails us - the almighty Market - prove that socialized democracy is the very best economic system in the world today. Why? Because the market - like evolution - allows that the system that is the strongest and most adaptable is the system that will be the most successful...and what are the most successful systems today? All one need do is to look at what nations are part of the economic First World - they're all socialized democracies, except for a couple (hideously oil-rich) OPEC nations.

And here's the key point: if socialized democracy - with the social safety nets that libertarians decry - are so bad, then the first-world community wouldn't be almost solely comprised of socialized democracies. Even with the Great Recession, the socialized democracies of the world are still on top. Conversely, there's quite a few nations out there that essentially work on libertarian principles: weak government, low taxes (in practice if not on paper), and little or no regulation. And you know what? Every single one of those nations are third-world nations.

So that begs the question: If socialized democracy is SO bad, then why are we still on top after eighty years? And if libertarian small-government/low-tax/little-regulation economics are so good, then why are they all still third-world nations?
We are not on top-- corporations are. Socialized democracies are the end result of letting big business/special interest control your fate and the fate of the country.
 

Gathomas88

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Europe has been, and continues to be, the continent with nations who are at the top of the list when it comes to standard of living and stability
So what? An overly-inflated standard of living doesn't count for much if it turns out to ultimately be unsustainable.

The simple fact of the matter is that Europe is currently "coasting" of off past glories, and has been doing so for quite some time.

They have an almost "Hobbit like" preoccupation with creature comforts which happens to make their nations rather pleasant, but that's really about all they can boast in today's world.
 

sangha

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So what? An overly-inflated standard of living doesn't count for much if it turns out to ultimately be unsustainable.

The simple fact of the matter is that Europe is currently "coasting" of off past glories, and has been doing so for quite some time.

They have an almost "Hobbitish" preoccupation with creature comforts, but that's really about all they can boast in today's world.
There is no evidence that those nations prosperity is unsustainable or that they are "coasting".

And if you think the Chinese and the Indians are less preoccupied with creature comforts, you're fooling yourself.
 

ReformCollege

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The fact that one socialized democracy is doing better than another doesnt show that socialized democracy doesn't work

The fact that all of the worlds most rposperous nations are socialized democracies proves that it does.
We are hardly "socialized." At least not to the same degree France is. "Socialized democracy" isn't just something you are or not. The degree to which one is matters here, and the fact is that the U.S., Switzerland, and Singapore (all first world countries mind you) are all much closer to being 100% free then they are 100% socialized and are all doing much better then France, the UK, and Greece.
 

ReformCollege

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Europe has been, and continues to be, the continent with nations who are at the top of the list when it comes to standard of living and stability
Times are changing. Asia will be the dominant economic continent for most of the 21st century.
 

ttwtt78640

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Europe has been, and continues to be, the continent with nations who are at the top of the list when it comes to standard of living and stability
But would this be possible without good old Uncle Sucker covering their defense needs? I believe that was the basic assertion of the post to which you replied. ;)
 

Gathomas88

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There is no evidence that those nations prosperity is unsustainable
Perhaps you haven't noticed the economic crisis they happen to be currently experiencing?

Most of Europe is actually significantly worse off than the United States where unemployment and slow economic recovery are concerned.

Economies primarily built to foster stability and socialist notions of "equality" and "fairness" above all else tend to kind of suck when it comes to adaptation and growth. Who knew!? Right? :roll:

or that they are "coasting".
What have they done that was worthy of any kind of international recognition since the 1940s?

As far as I can tell, all they've done is lose a bunch of wars against former colonies, and rely on American lead organizations like NATO to protect them from the scary Russians to the East.

And if you think the Chinese and the Indians are less preoccupied with creature comforts, you're fooling yourself.
Does either nation routinely spend 50% or more of its annual GDP on bloated welfare states?
 
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ttwtt78640

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Ah. That title should make a few conservative heads explode.

But the very rules that conservatives say are the cures for all that economically ails us - the almighty Market - prove that socialized democracy is the very best economic system in the world today. Why? Because the market - like evolution - allows that the system that is the strongest and most adaptable is the system that will be the most successful...and what are the most successful systems today? All one need do is to look at what nations are part of the economic First World - they're all socialized democracies, except for a couple (hideously oil-rich) OPEC nations.

And here's the key point: if socialized democracy - with the social safety nets that libertarians decry - are so bad, then the first-world community wouldn't be almost solely comprised of socialized democracies. Even with the Great Recession, the socialized democracies of the world are still on top. Conversely, there's quite a few nations out there that essentially work on libertarian principles: weak government, low taxes (in practice if not on paper), and little or no regulation. And you know what? Every single one of those nations are third-world nations.

So that begs the question: If socialized democracy is SO bad, then why are we still on top after eighty years? And if libertarian small-government/low-tax/little-regulation economics are so good, then why are they all still third-world nations?
Only with careful moderation does this system work. If it is taken to the extreme as in Detriot or Greece then problems occur. Just as herd animals learn that the herd can grow if they migrate to keep a solid food supply, by not over grazing, and allow the slow (very old, very young or sick) members to be culled by predators then the whole herd prospers. If they waited for the weakest to keep up, the whole herd suffers.

Keeping competiton up, and thus making progress for all, is more important than to keep the weakest members of society from falling on hard times. Trying to divide the existing pies into ever more fair slices must not allow the production of ever more pies from remaining the ultimate goal.
 

Morality Games

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Europe is not now, nor has it ever been, "on top," in any way, shape, or form since WW2.

Between their declining populations, slow growth economies, and virtually non-existent militaries, I really wouldn't even consider Western European style Socialized Democracies to be especially "successful," let alone "most successful." They are a self-contained microcosm of over bloated welfare states which would be completely unsustainable if they hadn't happened to ride the coat-tails of American global hegemony for the last half century to where they are today. If our fortunes decline, so will theirs.

Frankly, going by the logic you have elaborated upon above, it could actually be said that authoritarian capitalism is the "most successful" system, as authoritarian governments with laxly regulated economies - like China and India, for instance - are currently set to dominate the global economy for the rest of this century.
There is nothing "relaxed" about China's regulation. Foreign access, especially to markets, is heavily regulated.
 
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Painter

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How's France doing?
One thing about France is that it's infrastructure is state of the art and with only minor repair would last for generations to come.

Compared to our infrastructure, I am extremely embarrassed.
I have recently been to both Manhattan and San Francisco. Our subways and trains are so old it made me remember black and white movies.
What is the number? Something like 70% and a hundred thousand of our bridges do not pass safety inspection?
Our Nation is crumbling and no one wants to fix it.
Our infrastructure will not last for generations, not even with major repair.
Our great grandparents and grandparents gave us the world... and we chose to piss on it.
 

Gathomas88

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There is nothing "relaxed" about China's regulation. Foreign access, especially to markets, is heavily regulated.
True, but this really isn't any different than what the United States or any number of other nations had during the supposed height of "laissez faire" Capitalism during the 19th Century.

Tariffs, even of the extremely draconian variety, alone do not a "socialized democracy" make.
 

Hard Truth

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The simple fact of the matter is that Europe is currently "coasting" of off past glories, and has been doing so for quite some time.
Have you actually been to Europe?

Much of Europe was completely decimated after WWII and very factionalized, then they lost their colonies. I don´t think it is accurate to say that they are coasting off of past past glories.
 

Harshaw

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Yay. Another thread where people claim any government expenditure is "socialism."

I guess you can get anywhere you want as long as you define terms at your convenience.
 

ksu_aviator

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Ah. That title should make a few conservative heads explode.

But the very rules that conservatives say are the cures for all that economically ails us - the almighty Market - prove that socialized democracy is the very best economic system in the world today. Why? Because the market - like evolution - allows that the system that is the strongest and most adaptable is the system that will be the most successful...and what are the most successful systems today? All one need do is to look at what nations are part of the economic First World - they're all socialized democracies, except for a couple (hideously oil-rich) OPEC nations.

And here's the key point: if socialized democracy - with the social safety nets that libertarians decry - are so bad, then the first-world community wouldn't be almost solely comprised of socialized democracies. Even with the Great Recession, the socialized democracies of the world are still on top. Conversely, there's quite a few nations out there that essentially work on libertarian principles: weak government, low taxes (in practice if not on paper), and little or no regulation. And you know what? Every single one of those nations are third-world nations.

So that begs the question: If socialized democracy is SO bad, then why are we still on top after eighty years? And if libertarian small-government/low-tax/little-regulation economics are so good, then why are they all still third-world nations?
Define best? Because my definition of best is freedom, not stats on a sheet of paper. In order to have socialized anything, the public must give up rights. I'd rather keep my rights.
 

Gathomas88

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Have you actually been to Europe?

Much of Europe was completely decimated after WWII and very factionalized, then they lost their colonies. I don´t think it is accurate to say that they are coasting off of past past glories.
I have, as a matter of fact. Germany was pleasant (though I suppose it'd kind of have to be considering how much of the country they had to essentially rebuild from scratch following WW2), but France honestly struck me as being dirty, run down, and highly overrated in general.

Today, Europe only really thrives off of three things, and three things alone; the global reputation it garnered back in its glory days, the close alliances it shares with the United States, and its over-bloated standards of living.

Unfortunately for them, however; the reality of the situation is that the former is rapidly eroding away as the rest of the World passes the continent by, while the latter two might very well prove to be unsustainable if current global economic trends hold.
 
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