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Socialism is not compatible with democracy. (2 Viewers)

A few months ago I started a thread about capitalism and democracy, and in that thread I quoted this excerpt from an essay by one of the key leaders of the progressive movement, Woodrow Wilson:

Applied in a democratic state, such doctrine sounds radical, but not revolutionary. It is only an acceptance of the extremest logical conclusions deducible from democratic principles long ago received as respectable. For it is very clear that in fundamental theory socialism and democracy are almost if not quite one and the same. They both rest at bottom upon the absolute right of the community to determine its own destiny and that of its members. Men as communities are supreme over men as individuals.

While it may sound plausible, it's completely wrong. How do we know? The historical record speaks for itself. Dozens of socialist states have existed over the past century - the USSR, Cuba, East Germany, Venezuela, North Korea, etc, and not one has maintained free and fair elections. Why? Because they can’t. Socialist regimes concentrate economic and political power in the hands of the state, and once that power is centralized, the first priority becomes self-preservation, not democratic accountability.

In fact, if genuinely free elections were held, socialist politicians know they’d be voted out asap. People don’t want ration lines, economic stagnation, and political repression, especially not today, when the failures of socialism have been so thoroughly documented. Whether it’s the bread shortages in the Soviet Union, the collapse of healthcare in Cuba, or the hyperinflation of Venezuela, the track record is crystal clear: life under socialism is miserable and often deadly.

This is why the idea of "democratic socialism" is inherently contradictory. You cannot have both state control over the economy and a free society, because the former inevitably destroys the latter. Socialism requires coercion to control prices, property, production, and ultimately, people. And you can’t vote your way out of that shit once it takes root.

So while “democratic socialism” may sound like a friendly compromise, in practice it's a bait-and-switch offering democracy up front, but discarding it the moment the state takes over.
 
Do you have any idea how many decisions have to be made in a planned economy every day? How are you possibly going to have "the public" make all of these decisions?


You don't have " the public" make all the decisions, you have democratically elected councils to make those calls. Those council members are or could be subject to instant dismissal for shoddy performances.

You also don't appear to understand that in a capitalist owned world any shift to the Left, whatsoever, is met by that entire world back lash.

So things are most certainly not on an even basis are they?

The thing is, for me at least, that all systems/govts should be mindful of the damage an elite ruling class can engage in, whether that be a rich elite, as in the case of capitalist systems or a Party elite as in some alternative systems.

There are no meaningful/real democracies in the world today, there are polyarchies and/or plutocracies, so your question misses the point about democracy any how imo
 
You don't have " the public" make all the decisions, you have democratically elected councils to make those calls.

But the council still has to vote. There wouldn't be enough time in the day just to vote on raw material allocation. There are over 3000 grades of steel, 100s of different species of wood, chemicals, textiles, fabrics, rare earth elements. Then there are fuels: crude oil, refined products, natural gas variants, and on and on. Also food inputs: different types of grains, oils, sugar, etc. I'm scratching the surface here, and this is just raw materials. Your idiotic "elected council" still has to vote on what will be produced, and how many, and what kind.

The market organizes all of it in real time - with no one in charge.

Those council members are or could be subject to instant dismissal for shoddy performances.

It doesn't matter who's on the council. The results are always going to be shit.

You also don't appear to understand that in a capitalist owned world any shift to the Left, whatsoever, is met by that entire world back lash.

Of course. It's common knowledge that left-wing economics means poverty at best, famine at worst. When the state tries to plan an economy, shelves go empty and people go hungry - just ask anyone who’s lived through it. The only thing socialism distributes equally is misery, and even that’s managed with bureaucratic inefficiency.

The thing is, for me at least, that all systems/govts should be mindful of the damage an elite ruling class can engage in, whether that be a rich elite, as in the case of capitalist systems or a Party elite as in some alternative systems.

Right, because the rich capitalist might offer you a job or to sell you something, whereas a left-wing government will have you dig your own grave before giving you a bullet in the back of the head. Yes, let's watch out for both of those scenarios equally.


There are no meaningful/real democracies in the world today, there are polyarchies and/or plutocracies, so your question misses the point about democracy any how imo

Just like we get "not real socialism" every time it fails, now we can add "not real democracy" when that fails too. It’s the same move - if the results are garbage, then clearly it wasn’t the real thing. Convenient how both systems are supposedly wonderful in theory but shitty (democracy) or catastrophic (socialism) in practice every single time.
 
Just like we get "not real socialism" every time it fails, now we can add "not real democracy" when that fails too. It’s the same move - if the results are garbage, then clearly it wasn’t the real thing. Convenient how both systems are supposedly wonderful in theory but shitty (democracy) or catastrophic (socialism) in practice every single time.

Is there real capitalism?
 
This is why the idea of "democratic socialism" is inherently contradictory.
You based your framing of "socialism" on communist states. You could do the same thing by framing fascist states as "socialism". Its intellectually dishonest.

What bothers you about Wilson and the progs is their view of a living constitution and the de-emphasizing of natural rights.
 
You based your framing of "socialism" on communist states.

"not real socialism"

You could do the same thing by framing fascist states as "socialism". Its intellectually dishonest.

No, it would be accurate and intellectually honest. Mussolini was as left-wing as they come.

There's a ton of evidence for you to ignore.

What bothers you about Wilson and the progs is their view of a living constitution and the de-emphasizing of natural rights.

Yes, they were/are totalitarians and consequently they don't believe human rights exists. There are many left wing posters on this very forum who will tell you human rights do not exist.
 
"not real socialism"
So you can't argue you are describing democratic socialism if you are creating a "fake" premise, duh.
No, it would be accurate and intellectually honest. Mussolini was as left-wing as they come.

Hey....bud, we are talking about your wanting to describe social democracy using a false premise, social democrats in the US progressive vein are not Mussolini or Lenin acolytes. Why do you do this?
There's a ton of evidence for you to ignore.
There are a million ways to smear socialism and social democracy
Yes, they were/are totalitarians and consequently they don't believe human rights exists.
There you go again, I said a de-emphasizing of NATURAL RIGHTS as the founders saw them. If you have to go so far as to label Wilson as a "totalitarian" it smells like desperation, as if your argument has go all extreme all the time. I didn't really like Wilson, but I just don't think this framing is honest.
There are many left wing posters on this very forum who will tell you human rights do not exist.
So what? Am I among them? Is that what I am arguing? Nice nonsequitur.

Rage on, brother, rage on.
 
There are a million ways to smear socialism and social democracy

The best way is to just describe them accurately.

There you go again, I said a de-emphasizing of NATURAL RIGHTS as the founders saw them. If you have to go so far as to label Wilson as a "totalitarian" it smells like desperation, as if your argument has go all extreme all the time. I didn't really like Wilson, but I just don't think this framing is honest.

From the essay in the OP:

‘State socialism’ is willing to act though state authority as it is at present organized. It proposes that all idea of a limitation of public authority by individual rights be put out of view, and that the State consider itself bound to stop only at what is unwise or futile in its universal superintendence alike of individual and of public interests. The thesis of the states socialist is, that no line can be drawn between private and public affairs which the State may not cross at will.

He's saying that the filthy state can do whatever it wants with no limits.
 
The best way is to just describe them accurately.
But your premise is entirely false by your own admission...and...you completely skipped that entire portion of my argument
From the essay in the OP:
He's saying that the filthy state can do whatever it wants with no limits.
As I said from the start, your entire premise is false, you take everything to an extreme conclusion which bears no resemblance to reality. His, and progressive of the day said that the framers obsession with individual natural rights creates barriers to societal issues. Of course you don't like progressives because you are a big natural rights guy.
 
As I said from the start, your entire premise is false, you take everything to an extreme conclusion which bears no resemblance to reality.

I quoted his words verbatim.

His, and progressive of the day said that the framers obsession with individual natural rights creates barriers to societal issues.

Yes, like the "societal issue" of undesirables breeding. Progressives fixed that "societal issue" by passing compulsory sterilization laws. Who needs individual rights when there are good deeds to be done?

Of course you don't like progressives because you are a big natural rights guy.

That's correct. Progressivism is extremely hostile to individual rights, just like Nazism and communism are.
 
That's correct. Progressivism is extremely hostile to individual rights, just like Nazism and communism are.

How free is capitalism? You are inextricably linked to other people, definitionally, and your rights are determined by the capitalist.
 

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