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So is keeping 30 million people from insurance the best the GOP can do?

Then lets fix it. The right needs to stop bitching and give some real ideas other than defending big pharm and the doctors lobby.

The left isn't fixing it with that abomination called Obamacare. :shrug: and they have no intention of listening to "the right".
 
We still have not heard your ideas to replace the ACA my right wing friends. Is keeping 30 million Americans from health care the best you can do? That sounds like a loser to me and Newt also from what he said at the GOP meeting a few weeks ago. Remember social security was not that popular at first until people saw what good it did. Is the same thing going to happen with the ACA? I think conservatives are afraid of just that yet saying no is the only idea they seem to have.

Because Social Security is working so well........ :roll:
 
Obamacare or the ACA points out what is wrong with American politics. A debate happens in the media and in both houses concerning a piece of legislation, The legislation becomes enacted, an election happens and the party that enacts the legislation is returned to power. Does that end the debate? Does the country move on? No. The debate continues. The party that is against the legislation vows to repeal it when they come to power.


I was watching an episode of West Wing the other day. It could have been filmed last week. Neither party says "we gave it a good fight but lost. - Now onto the next battle" Instead they say "we gave it a good fight but lost, tomorrow we will have the same fight again, and the next day and the next day until we win. Then the day after that the other party starts the same fight waiting for their turn to win.


You never get to the place where everyone says - it is a ****ty solution compared to what we wanted, but its a solution. Lets win on the next issue.
 
The left isn't fixing it with that abomination called Obamacare. :shrug: and they have no intention of listening to "the right".

oh mac, what a weak narrative you cling to. President Obama is/was willing to work with republicans. the problem is the republican agenda was to make President Obama a term president. McConnel told us. and I don't recall President Obama running around shrieking like a spoiled child that

"republicans were born in Kenya"
"republican's BC's are fake"
"dogs and cats living together"
"republicans want to kill old people"


see how I showed that one party wasn't interested in an intelligent and meaningful debate of the issues. And get this mac, the ignorant base of the republican party fell for every lie (I said they were ignorant) and would not tolerate working with President Obama. geez, they mad that republicans didn't destroy the economy by defaulting on our debt (again, I said they were ignorant) . so for you to whine that President Obama wouldn't "listen to republicans" is as hysterical as it is hypocritical.
 
oh mac, what a weak narrative you cling to. President Obama is/was willing to work with republicans. the problem is the republican agenda was to make President Obama a term president. McConnel told us. and I don't recall President Obama running around shrieking like a spoiled child that

Preposterous. The Dems locked the GOP out of all discussion until the bill was passed....and...he's been shrieking like a spoiled child every time something he wanted wasn't done...since 2010.

"republicans were born in Kenya"
"republican's BC's are fake"
"dogs and cats living together"
"republicans want to kill old people"


see how I showed that one party wasn't interested in an intelligent and meaningful debate of the issues. And get this mac, the ignorant base of the republican party fell for every lie (I said they were ignorant) and would not tolerate working with President Obama. geez, they mad that republicans didn't destroy the economy by defaulting on our debt (again, I said they were ignorant) . so for you to whine that President Obama wouldn't "listen to republicans" is as hysterical as it is hypocritical.

Actually, all you did was spew more hyperbole.
 
Actually, all you did was spew more hyperbole.

well the good news is that you at least realize that republicans running around shrieking that
"President Obama was born in Kenya"
"President Obama's BC's is fake"
"dogs and cats living together"
"President Obama wants to kill old people"

is hyperbole. Strangely you dont seem to acknowledge its proof that

A republicans had no intention of working with President Obama on any issue
B their ignorant base would not tolerate them working with President Obama on any issue

But I do find if funny that you can ignore the delusional rhetoric and hyperbole from the right, the stated agenda of making President Obama a one termer, the fact that republicans have voted 40 times (yes, 40 times) to repeal Obamacare to cling to some silly notion that pubs wanted to work with President Obama on Obamacare.

Humor me mac, explain how pubs shrieking that "Obama wants to kill old people" shows you pubs were honestly interested in working with dems on Obamacare. (dont just repeat your narrative. )
 
well the good news is that you at least realize that republicans running around shrieking that
"President Obama was born in Kenya"
"President Obama's BC's is fake"
"dogs and cats living together"
"President Obama wants to kill old people"

is hyperbole. Strangely you dont seem to acknowledge its proof that

A republicans had no intention of working with President Obama on any issue
B their ignorant base would not tolerate them working with President Obama on any issue

But I do find if funny that you can ignore the delusional rhetoric and hyperbole from the right, the stated agenda of making President Obama a one termer, the fact that republicans have voted 40 times (yes, 40 times) to repeal Obamacare to cling to some silly notion that pubs wanted to work with President Obama on Obamacare.

Humor me mac, explain how pubs shrieking that "Obama wants to kill old people" shows you pubs were honestly interested in working with dems on Obamacare. (dont just repeat your narrative. )

Well, first, you're conflating the actions of some extremist ideologues with that of the republican party as a whole, second, I don't remember anyone claiming Obama wants to kill old people...not even the extremists. Third, you are completely ignoring what actually happened in the Obamacare "debate", and last...what you are doing now is no different that what you claim the republicans are doing.
 
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Obamacare or the ACA points out what is wrong with American politics. A debate happens in the media and in both houses concerning a piece of legislation, The legislation becomes enacted, an election happens and the party that enacts the legislation is returned to power. Does that end the debate? Does the country move on? No. The debate continues. The party that is against the legislation vows to repeal it when they come to power.

Actually, the Dems lost the house as a result.
 
You sir are wrong. The right wing hates socialism so bad it has made them blind. The cost of medicene has became too high and that is fact. 30 million people do not have healthcare and that is fact and they are crowding our emergency rooms and we pay their bill anyway. The right needs to start working with the Dem's to fix the ACA because my friend it is here to stay. Once people start getting it they are giong to be for it just like the VA,medicare,medicade and social security and the right knows this. That is why they are fighting so hard now because they know it is their last chance.

Hating socialism has nothing to do with keeping people from healthcare.
 
A republicans had no intention of working with President Obama on any issue

So, nothing the President wanted has been passed since 2009?

B their ignorant base would not tolerate them working with President Obama on any issue

More open-minded liberalism? Demonize the opposition....very enlightened.
 
[snip...]

Strangely you dont seem to acknowledge its proof that

A republicans had no intention of working with President Obama on any issue
B their ignorant base would not tolerate them working with President Obama on any issue

[snip...]

Working with is not the same thing as demanding adherance to the wishes of. Compromise requires concessions be made on both sides, or from both parties, not simply agreeing that item/issue X is "off the table" so negotiations are limitted to only item/issue Y.

When debating whether to PPACA or not to PPACA here are really only two sides to be taken. ;)
 
Well, first, you're conflating the actions of some extremist ideologues with that of the republican party as a whole, second, I don't remember anyone claiming Obama wants to kill old people...not even the extremists. .

What!?!? oh mac, that’s just sad. No con on the planet gets to pretend not to know the republican narrative of “Obama wants to kill old people”. not one. And mac, even if you pretend not to know about the republican lies used to attack Obamacare, you just don’t get to pretend not to know that McConnell said his agenda was to make President Obama a one termer. Well actually, you’ve proven you can.

Third, you are completely ignoring what actually happened in the Obamacare "debate",

well mac, why dont you tell us what happened. I hope your ‘story’ about what really happened is as absurd and laughable as “I don't remember anyone claiming Obama wants to kill old people”. Remember, you said "
Well, first, you're conflating the actions of some extremist ideologues with that of the republican party as a whole, second, I don't remember anyone claiming Obama wants to kill old people...not even the extremists. .

What!?!? oh mac, that’s just sad. No con on the planet gets to pretend not to know the republican narrative of “Obama wants to kill old people”. not one. And mac, even if you pretend not to know about the republican lies used to attack Obamacare, you just don’t get to pretend not to know that McConnell said his agenda was to make President Obama a one termer. Well actually, you’ve proven you can.

Third, you are completely ignoring what actually happened in the Obamacare "debate",

well mac, why dont you tell us what happened. I hope your ‘story’ about what really happened is as absurd and laughable as “I don't remember anyone claiming Obama wants to kill old people”. Remember you said that “republicans were locked out of the debate”. so your 'story' needs to explain all the amendments republicans added to obamacare. Use actual facts, not the magic ‘facts’ you so rely on.



and mac, about your silly delusion that “republicans were locked out of the debate”, can you explain all the amendments republicans added to obamacare. Using actual facts. not the magic ‘facts’ you so rely on.
 
What!?!? oh mac, that’s just sad. No con on the planet gets to pretend not to know the republican narrative of “Obama wants to kill old people”. not one. And mac, even if you pretend not to know about the republican lies used to attack Obamacare, you just don’t get to pretend not to know that McConnell said his agenda was to make President Obama a one termer. Well actually, you’ve proven you can.

Which republican lies? That it will force companies to drop healthcare coverage? That it will force companies to cut back hours? That it will raise costs, premiums and taxes? Those lies?

well mac, why dont you tell us what happened. I hope your ‘story’ about what really happened is as absurd and laughable as “I don't remember anyone claiming Obama wants to kill old people”. Remember, you said "

Were you asleep? Anyone that tries to claim that Republicans were included in the formation of Obamacare is simply delusional.

What!?!? oh mac, that’s just sad. No con on the planet gets to pretend not to know the republican narrative of “Obama wants to kill old people”. not one. And mac, even if you pretend not to know about the republican lies used to attack Obamacare, you just don’t get to pretend not to know that McConnell said his agenda was to make President Obama a one termer. Well actually, you’ve proven you can.

How about you show us a quote of a republican saying "Obama wants to kill old people."?

well mac, why dont you tell us what happened. I hope your ‘story’ about what really happened is as absurd and laughable as “I don't remember anyone claiming Obama wants to kill old people”. Remember you said that “republicans were locked out of the debate”. so your 'story' needs to explain all the amendments republicans added to obamacare. Use actual facts, not the magic ‘facts’ you so rely on.

The only person I heard say anything about killing anyone was Allen Grayson who said the GOP's plan was to have you "Die quickly." Remember that?

and mac, about your silly delusion that “republicans were locked out of the debate”, can you explain all the amendments republicans added to Obamacare. Using actual facts. not the magic ‘facts’ you so rely on.

Exactly which ammendment do you think was added...and is actually in there....due to any Republican influence? It seems that just like the Democrats that passed the bill, you have no idea what's in it.
 
False premise #1 - no alternatives have been provided for Obamacare. In fact, scores of options, alternatives, and a host of changes to the existing system have been around for a long time.

False premise #2 - The GOP favors keeping 30 million Americans from healthcare. Well that's just silly; it is nothing more than a left-wing meme. No one has proposed such nonsense and no one supports it.

False premise #3 - Obamacare is comparable to Social Security. I don't even know where to begin with this - suffice it to say SS has proven itself insolvent and unsustainable (not to mention thoroughly unconstitutional). In those senses anyway are they comparable.

False premise #4 - Saying "no" is the only idea conservatives have. See false premise #1.

well Ed, you're sorta right. It seems that once President Obama accepted the conservative mandate cons couldn't come up with enough ideas fast enough. The problem is that their "ideas"

1 cost more than Obamacare
2 covered fewer people than Obamacare
3 were obviously floated only to kill Obamacare.

And ed, since I numbered them I don't have to back them up. But alas, I'm not a con, I'll back them up. this addresses 1 & 2

"The Democratic bill, in other words, covers 12 times as many people and saves $36 billion more than the Republican plan. And amazingly, the Democratic bill has already been through three committees and a merger process. It's already been shown to interest groups and advocacy organizations and industry stakeholders. It's already made its compromises with reality. It's already been through the legislative sausage grinder. And yet it saves more money and covers more people than the blank-slate alternative proposed by John Boehner and the House Republicans. The Democrats, constrained by reality, produced a far better plan than Boehner, who was constrained solely by his political imagination and legislative skill."

Ezra Klein - Congressional Budget Office Thrashes Republican Health-Care Plan

What proves my point #3 is that republicans have voted 40 times (yes 40 times) to repeal Obamacare. Not replace, repeal.
Well.... Vern, perhaps a little history is in order to provide some semblance of context for why Republicans (and their constituents) are so earnestly seeking to repeal that abortion of a bill.

The progressives have been attempting to usurp for themselves more power via government-run healthcare for over 100 years. Teddy Roosevelt made the first attempt back in 1912. Soundly defeated. FDR followed in 1933 with his version, attempting to get it written into Social Security. Soundly defeated. Truman took up the banner again in 1949. Again, soundly defeated. Not to be deterred, the left continued its push in the early '60's, losing its battle against totally socialized healthcare but succeeded in getting Medicare and Medicaid enacted as feet in the door. In '93 we faced Clinton-care, which was soundly defeated. And now we have Obamacare, the singularly most unpopular legislation ever passed against the American people.

The absurd notion that Republicans, conservatives, et. al. don't want healthcare, or want people to die without it, or [fill in the yada, yada, yada blank] is quickly debunked when the history of socialized medicine is put forth. No argument holds water about our opposition to socialized medicine except.... that we are opposed to socialized medicine. Period. Proponents of socialized medicine have been attempting to get that implemented, as I said, for over 100 years - which, again, debunks all the asinine arguments about how we don't care about people, want grandmothers to die, children to starve, etc. etc. etc.

as far as the rest of your silly points, I can only laugh. What silly website told you SS was "thoroughly unconstitutional" ? honestly you should start a thread with that pearl of wisdom.
Well as they say, Vern - "Laughter is the best medicine."

I suggest you go to Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. Once there, perhaps you can then show me where Social Security is listed as one of the enumerated powers of federal government?
 
You sir are wrong. The right wing hates socialism so bad it has made them blind. The cost of medicene has became too high and that is fact. 30 million people do not have healthcare and that is fact and they are crowding our emergency rooms and we pay their bill anyway. The right needs to start working with the Dem's to fix the ACA because my friend it is here to stay. Once people start getting it they are giong to be for it just like the VA,medicare,medicade and social security and the right knows this. That is why they are fighting so hard now because they know it is their last chance.
I'm not at all wrong, though I do hate and despise socialism with a passion, yes. But blind? Not at all; and it doesn't take 20-20 vision to realize what socialism has done to people whenever and wherever it's been implemented - INCLUDING what it's now doing to this once-great nation.

Please, oh please do stop it with the vain and crass emotional appeals to make the argument for government-run health care. They're all pointless pretenses for allowing the government to usurp more power from the American people --- and have been for the over 100 years your side has been attempting to make it happen. 100 years. Every 15 or 20 years a new proposal has come forth, with new arguments, new rationalizations, new emotional appeals to do one thing - enact government-run health care.

Admit it:
You want the government to run your health care.
You want the government to administer your health care.
You want the government to make your health care decisions for you.
You want the government to pay for your health care.

All the rest is just a bunch of emotional clap-trap designed to tug on the strings of emotional people to get them to make an emotional decision which ultimate - and singular effect is:

To give the government total power over 1/6th of this nation's economy and our health care.

Admit it.
 
We still have not heard your ideas to replace the ACA my right wing friends. Is keeping 30 million Americans from health care the best you can do? That sounds like a loser to me and Newt also from what he said at the GOP meeting a few weeks ago. Remember social security was not that popular at first until people saw what good it did. Is the same thing going to happen with the ACA? I think conservatives are afraid of just that yet saying no is the only idea they seem to have.

The first step is to send 20 million of those 30 million back to their own homeland. 2/3 of the problem solved. Along with 50% of the unemployment problem.
 
We still have not heard your ideas to replace the ACA my right wing friends. Is keeping 30 million Americans from health care the best you can do? That sounds like a loser to me and Newt also from what he said at the GOP meeting a few weeks ago. Remember social security was not that popular at first until people saw what good it did. Is the same thing going to happen with the ACA? I think conservatives are afraid of just that yet saying no is the only idea they seem to have.

Yes you have. You just chose not to listen. And no one is keeping them from anything. They can use their money to go buy insurance if they like.

Best idea, ban comprehensive insurance for high deductible insurance. Allow employers to deposit money into HSA's with no tax implications and let excess amount in an HSA roll over into a retirement account. That way, everyone has the money they need, they aren't paying for Dr's visits they never use and retirement savings goes up. But democrats don't like that plan because it removes the controls they need to keep black and hispanic people enslaved to the government.
 
How about you show us a quote of a republican saying "Obama wants to kill old people."?
again, I find it odd that you are the only person on the planet to be completely unaware of all the “Obama wants to kill old people” lies.

Republican National Committee Chair Revives Death Panel Smear Against Obamacare
“And then he dropped the death panels line — “what people don’t want are government panels deciding whether something’s medically necessary.”
Republican National Committee Chair Revives Death Panel Smear Against Obamacare | ThinkProgress

"On former Sen. Fred Thompson’s radio show, former lieutenant governor of New York Betsy McCaughey said that the House’s proposed health care bill contained a provision that would institute mandatory counseling sessions telling seniors how "to do what’s in society’s best interest … and cut your life short." House Minority Leader John Boehner made a slightly more measured statement, warning that the same provision "may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law."
False Euthanasia Claims


Exactly which ammendment do you think was added...and is actually in there....due to any Republican influence?

remember your hyperbole was “republicans were locked out of the debate”. did they change the locks? Your lack of knowledge on the subject seems endless.

“Almost no one is noting the extraordinary influence Republicans had on the healthcare reform bill crafted by the Senate, as it made its way through the committee process last year. The bill approved by Sen. Christopher Dodd’s Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee, for instance, included 161 amendments authored by Republicans. Only 49 Republican amendments were rejected out of 210 considered. Yet the bill got zero Republican votes when it passed out of the committee.
Fact-checking the GOP on healthcare reform - Salon.com

The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill
6) And finally, we shouldn't forget the compromises that have been the most painful for Democrats, and the most substantive. This is a private-market plan. Not only is single-payer off the table, but at this point, so too is the public option. The thing that liberals want most in the world has been compromised away.
On Sunday, John Boehner and Mitch McConnell responded to Barack Obama's summit invitation by demanding Obama scrap the health-care reform bill entirely. This is the context for that demand. What they want isn't a bill that incorporates their ideas. They've already got that. What they want is no bill at all. And that's a hard position for the White House to compromise with.

Ezra Klein - The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill
 
We still have not heard your ideas to replace the ACA my right wing friends. Is keeping 30 million Americans from health care the best you can do? That sounds like a loser to me and Newt also from what he said at the GOP meeting a few weeks ago. Remember social security was not that popular at first until people saw what good it did. Is the same thing going to happen with the ACA? I think conservatives are afraid of just that yet saying no is the only idea they seem to have.

There are no ideas to replace the ACA because it is not the place of the Government to be involved in Healthcare to begin with.

Likewise, there are many of us who have a desire to do away with Social Security as well, since it has no legitimate mandate either.

Yes, there is a very good chance that like Social Security, Welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, etc.... the sheeple will just accept and embrace the wrongness of the ACA. There will always be a small group of us who stand for what's Right even if the rest of you accept what's Wrong.
 
Well as they say, Vern - "Laughter is the best medicine."

I suggest you go to Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. Once there, perhaps you can then show me where Social Security is listed as one of the enumerated powers of federal government?

er uh ed, you said it was "thoroughly unconstitutional". Is "not specifically mentioned" your deluded version of "thoroughly unconstitutional". Is there anything else you want to add to the list of "thoroughly unconstitutional". remember, laughter is the best medicine.
 
again, I find it odd that you are the only person on the planet to be completely unaware of all the “Obama wants to kill old people” lies.

It isn't a lie. Here is Obama, in his own words, telling a woman her mother can't have a procedure and should be just made comfortable until she dies. He tries to cover it up with the code word "waste".

Obama to Jane Sturm: Hey, take a pill - YouTube
 
er uh ed, you said it was "thoroughly unconstitutional". Is "not specifically mentioned" your deluded version of "thoroughly unconstitutional". Is there anything else you want to add to the list of "thoroughly unconstitutional". remember, laughter is the best medicine.
Aw, c'mon Vern; you can do better than that. Here... here's the link: Article 1, Section 8

Show me where Social Security is enumerated as one of congress' powers.
While we're at it, show me where Obamacare is enumerated as one of congress' powers.

I'll wait....
 
again, I find it odd that you are the only person on the planet to be completely unaware of all the “Obama wants to kill old people” lies.

Republican National Committee Chair Revives Death Panel Smear Against Obamacare
“And then he dropped the death panels line — “what people don’t want are government panels deciding whether something’s medically necessary.”
Republican National Committee Chair Revives Death Panel Smear Against Obamacare | ThinkProgress

"On former Sen. Fred Thompson’s radio show, former lieutenant governor of New York Betsy McCaughey said that the House’s proposed health care bill contained a provision that would institute mandatory counseling sessions telling seniors how "to do what’s in society’s best interest … and cut your life short." House Minority Leader John Boehner made a slightly more measured statement, warning that the same provision "may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law."
False Euthanasia Claims

Ahhh, I see...you're conflating the concern that healthcare will be decided by a panel of govt beancounters with "Obama is trying to kill old people." Hyperbole.

remember your hyperbole was “republicans were locked out of the debate”. did they change the locks? Your lack of knowledge on the subject seems endless.

“Almost no one is noting the extraordinary influence Republicans had on the healthcare reform bill crafted by the Senate, as it made its way through the committee process last year. The bill approved by Sen. Christopher Dodd’s Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee, for instance, included 161 amendments authored by Republicans. Only 49 Republican amendments were rejected out of 210 considered. Yet the bill got zero Republican votes when it passed out of the committee.
Fact-checking the GOP on healthcare reform - Salon.com

The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill
6) And finally, we shouldn't forget the compromises that have been the most painful for Democrats, and the most substantive. This is a private-market plan. Not only is single-payer off the table, but at this point, so too is the public option. The thing that liberals want most in the world has been compromised away.
On Sunday, John Boehner and Mitch McConnell responded to Barack Obama's summit invitation by demanding Obama scrap the health-care reform bill entirely. This is the context for that demand. What they want isn't a bill that incorporates their ideas. They've already got that. What they want is no bill at all. And that's a hard position for the White House to compromise with.

Ezra Klein - The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill

Salon? Lol, really? Name one of these Republican ammendments and who authored it. As for changing the locks, yes, they did that too.
 
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