So I Told My Friend He's a Drunk Today

[Crovax]

Sounds like you've got your own issues and having failed to resolve them, want some company for your misery.

And perhaps you could use some AA yourself, because your grammar reads like you've been drinking.

Some time wasted listening to a bunch a idiots that haven’t adapted any new ideas since the 1930s?

That’s what reading some of the DP posts are for

 

[justabubba]

Sounds like you've got your own issues and having failed to resolve them, want some company for your misery.

And perhaps you could use some AA yourself, because your grammar reads like you've been drinking.

his perspective/opinion is a legitimate one

when the arrow fails to hit the target, maybe it is wise to blame the indian and not the arrow

 

[Crovax]

I don't understand the pretty common hostility to AA that's out there. Bottom line is it's a self help group, and they differ from group to group, city to city, sometimes dramatically. I've been to maybe 15 different groups and 10-12 of them weren't for me at all, a few I felt worse coming out than going in, with some real assholes leading them, but others were and are a great source of support for hundreds or thousands of people in my area. I've got a couple dozen good friends through the program, and it's a good thing. eace

Because you are ignorant.

This is a pretty comprehensive article on why AA is just about the worst thing you can do to stop drinking

The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous - The Atlantic

 

[Hari Seldon]

You are seriously a ****ing asshole! Also, welcome to my ignore switch you pathetic human being! Mods, come and get me, this will be worth it!

I agree with you 100%. If you can't say something helpful in a self help thread then just shut the **** up. Even if you think AA is not as helpful as some there are nicer ways to convey the criticism or concern than being a prick. Good luck with your friend.

 

[Kobie]

I've known Cal for well over 20 years. We became friends at work, he went on to a different company but we remained friends. He used to coach our company softball team. He's got an undergrad, an MBA, and 2 PHD's. He's got a lot of knowledge but not as much common sense as I wish he could have. Anyway, he's my friend, and I love him.

Cal got divorced, roughly the same time as I did, 2 years ago. As friends, we stopped hanging out for awhile because his wife (now his ex) didn't like hanging around our kids. When Cal got divorced we started hanging out again. Cal is still not over his divorce. His ex-wife is a malignant narcissist. She had and has zero empathy for Cal. She announced she was dumping him at work, in the lobby of their office building, the day before Cal was going to head on vacation. He fainted. She couldn't wait to do it, in private, after Cal returned. Suffice to say, Cal had a pretty ****ing ****ty time on that vacation. Anyway, that's the kind of horrible person she is.

Anyway, Cal's still not over her, although me, his family and all his other friends tell him he does not want her back. He agrees and says, "keep telling me that". Well, ok. But he's got to realize it himself.

So, mourning the end of his marriage 2 years ago Cal started self-medicating with booze. Hard alcohol. Every time I've seen him the past 2 years he's had some kind of drink goin'.

He hosted me and my brother, and his former nephew Christmas for dinner. Cal passed out in his recliner right after dinner. We all ended up cleaning up, putting the food away, then we just left and locked him in. This is when I realized I had to do what I could do to stop this. I called Cal at work the next day and told him for the first time, "Cal, I'm worried about your drinking". He said, "Yeah, it's a bit of a problem".

Anyway, he lives between where my kids' mom lives and where I live. After dropping off the kids, I usually stop by and visit with Cal. Tonight I became a real asshole. When Cal let me in tonight, I said, "Hi, Cal! How's the drinking going?". He joked "it's still going, ha, ha, I'm still doing it!, ha ha". Then later this evening he said, "ha ha, a few hours into work I get the shakes, ha, ha".

And I just ****ing lost it. I said, "So Cal! You're a drunk!". He said, "Yeah, I'm a drunk". So I told him, "we're going to find a meeting by your house, when I get back Saturday you and I are going to an AA meeting". And he agreed. So we're going to Cal's first AA meeting this Saturday. It's a good start!

I'm hopeful!

I'm glad that worked out in this case, but I've found that being mega-confrontational about a friend's issues can only make them worse or lead them to shut you out.

 

[Kobie]

You are seriously a ****ing asshole! Also, welcome to my ignore switch you pathetic human being! Mods, come and get me, this will be worth it!

While Crovax was kinda of a dick there, I also question AA's effectiveness. I know more people who washed out from AA than those it helped.

 

[justabubba]

I agree with you 100%. If you can't say something helpful in a self help thread then just shut the **** up. Even if you think AA is not as helpful as some there are nicer ways to convey the criticism or concern than being a prick. Good luck with your friend.

actually, his comments should have been helpful
AA can be successful, but possibly not for the OP's friend
AA is unregulated and unscientific. alcohol abuse is a disease. a medical approach might be a better formula for recovery

 

[Kobie]

I don't understand the pretty common hostility to AA that's out there.

I do. It essentially tries to force God on you, and its success rate is awful compared to other rehabilitation programs.

I don't understand the idea that AA is the best thing out there for all drunks, especially with so many other options out there, except for the fact that it's essentially free.

 

[Hari Seldon]

actually, his comments should have been helpful
AA can be successful, but possibly not for the OP's friend
AA is unregulated and unscientific. alcohol abuse is a disease. a medical approach might be a better formula for recovery

No he was being a dick as evidenced by your post.

 

[JasperL]

Because you are ignorant.

This is a pretty comprehensive article on why AA is just about the worst thing you can do to stop drinking

The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous - The Atlantic

What's your expertise?

But it doesn't really matter, because you don't know me or know what I think about treatment and AA versus other options. And I know you're ignorant on the subject, so it's a waste of time engaging you. I'll just leave it for everyone else in this thread that I'm not an AA cultist, I don't believe AA is the only option, and it's not the best option for lots of people. I'm a big believer in treating alcoholism on a number of fronts, because it's a physical disease for some because chronic abuse changes the way our brain produces and reacts to the compounds that keep us centered and content, and that can't be wished away with slogans or meetings. I'm a big believer in some of the newer drugs that are available, and hope they get more widespread use in the U.S. For my own case I vigorously addressed my overall health, exercise, diet, supplements and more based on my reading, a couple of the more than a dozen books I read on addiction and alcoholism.

And I go to meetings because the support is invaluable to me and many others.

The point is alcoholism is a problem that's pretty unique to each individual, who often have lots of different needs, different mental and/or physical and medical problems that need addressing. That doesn't make AA a BAD option for the millions who find a lot of help and support in AA, either as a primary treatment option or as a support group following or alongside other approaches. If you weren't ignorant, you'd know that and recognize it. So take your crap elsewhere.

 

[justabubba]

No he was being a dick as evidenced by your post.

however one may choose to characterize his post, his caution about the reliance on AA as THE method of recovery is a legitimate one
there is little data which shows AA to be particularly effective
there may be better alternatives, preferably science/medicine based, to use instead

 

[Hari Seldon]

however one may choose to characterize his post, his caution about the reliance on AA as THE method of recovery is a legitimate one
there is little data which shows AA to be particularly effective
there may be better alternatives, preferably science/medicine based, to use instead

That may very well be. I have no idea either way. Doesn't mean you need to be a douchebag.

 

[Kobie]

Because you are ignorant.

This is a pretty comprehensive article on why AA is just about the worst thing you can do to stop drinking

The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous - The Atlantic

We generally don't get along, but I thank you for posting this. AA and other 12-step programs are pseudoscience. If they work, it's by chance.

AA, NA and the "get with god and quit cold turkey or you're a failure" programs are garbage and should be treated as such.

 

[justabubba]

That may very well be. I have no idea either way. Doesn't mean you need to be a douchebag.

how was i a douchebag

 

[Hari Seldon]

how was i a douchebag

Not you. Your comments were civil and empathetic even if you believe AA is not very helpful.

 

[JasperL]

I do. It essentially tries to force God on you, and its success rate is awful compared to other rehabilitation programs.

I don't understand the idea that AA is the best thing out there for all drunks, especially with so many other options out there, except for the fact that it's essentially free.

It actually doesn't force God on people, or doesn't have to. Some groups are "Higher power" based, and that's a big part of the program, and other groups function more like agnostic support groups. Knoxville has about 50 different groups, and there is a VAST difference between them. Each group takes the character of regular attendees, which will...vary, like any other 50 groups of people. My local group is downtown and it's full of professionals, and a bunch of just off the street types, and it's informal and as varied in approaches as you can imagine such a group would be.

And I don't know what's the best approach, and I certainly recognize that AA definitely isn't for everyone. I'm a big believer in whatever works, and if it was my friend I'd never suggest ONLY AA, and the guy in the OP has professional support outside AA, which is good so I won't pretend to offer advice to someone getting it from professionals.

Part of the problem I think is there are some people I call 'true believers' who are essentially cultists or ideologues and they drive a lot of the public discussion, just like the same kind of people are who we hear about when it comes to religion. But like the perhaps 100s of thousands of churches, it's a mistake to stereotype them all as anything, because on the local level they're nothing more than a gathering of a few people, from maybe 4 or 5 for some groups on a regular basis to 50 for a couple of big meetings.

 

[JasperL]

We generally don't get along, but I thank you for posting this. AA and other 12-step programs are pseudoscience. If they work, it's by chance.

AA, NA and the "get with god and quit cold turkey or you're a failure" programs are garbage and should be treated as such.

I don't know why you don't listen to people who tell you your stereotyping of AA is wrong, actually. You're essentially attacking a straw man. The best people I know in the treatment arena take a more "all the above" approach to addiction than either/or. AA isn't incompatible at all with medical treatment, or whatever other better and unspecified option you have in mind.

And one big problem with treating AA and NA as 'garbage' is there aren't a lot of options for lots of people. Most family doctors are more or less completely ignorant about addiction and how to address it, and if you're not fairly well off, you cannot spend a month and $20,000 or more to check yourself into a medical facility two cities over or two states over, with the newest treatment options. So what do you suggest for someone who's got a family to feed, a job, and whose insurance if they have it doesn't cover the treatment, and if it did can't take the month off?

If the idea is the medical community ought to catch up to the many OTHER options out there that aren't AA based, fine, I agree 100%. But crapping on the only option available to lots of people AS WE SIT HERE IN THIS REALITY doesn't appear to me all that helpful.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

He's seeing 2 different counselors, one I think who prescribes his meds (which I'm sure are being rendered ineffective by all his ****ing drinking) and a psychologist. He also speaks with his brother in San Francisco every night. Now he just needs to stop drinking.

Not sure that the meds prescribed by his therapist (are they opiates?) are that great of an idea when he's already self medicating with the booze.
I'm conflicted because I am not sure if this is really alcoholism or his grief and stress over his dead marriage, but of course the key to whether or not it's alcoholism is whether one's life has become unmanageable, which it sounds like might be the case for Cal, or soon to be.

Anyway, it would be better if he could find a therapist who won't prescribe meds, except for maybe a wee bit of Zoloft and nothing else.

I carried a torch for my very first really serious live-in girlfriend for a very long time. I was ready to marry her but it never worked out. I even went back to Minnesota a couple of times to try and get her to come with me, no luck.
I did fall in love with a couple of other women, even married* one, but every once in a while Diane would creep into my thoughts again.

But it was never a factor in my addiction, my work stress and my toxic first marriage* were. The moment my toxic first marriage was over, I didn't quit right away but it wasn't long after. Once I finally dealt with my grief over that first failed toxic marriage I was able to deal with stopping my drug use.
Thoughts of Diane haunted me again but I didn't fall off the wagon. And that's odd because looking back, I think I loved Diane more than I loved my first wife, and I did love my first wife a great deal, but not the same way I loved Diane.

I do know guys who have sunken into addiction over failed relationships. We're supposedly tough, right? Yeah maybe, but not necessarily in the ways people might think. Many of us do fall hard for someone, and it eats us up inside.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

:rofl: AA meetings, the group that has the same success rate as gay conversion therapy. AA just trades one addiction for another although doesnt sound like your friend is addicted hes just depressed

And you base this opinion on what?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Lighten up man, sounds like you need a drink :cheers:

That's seriously ****ed up.

 

[Kobie]

I don't know why you don't listen to people who tell you your stereotyping of AA is wrong, actually. You're essentially attacking a straw man. The best people I know in the treatment arena take a more "all the above" approach to addiction than either/or. AA isn't incompatible at all with medical treatment, or whatever other better and unspecified option you have in mind.

And one big problem with treating AA and NA as 'garbage' is there aren't a lot of options for lots of people. Most family doctors are more or less completely ignorant about addiction and how to address it, and if you're not fairly well off, you cannot spend a month and $20,000 or more to check yourself into a medical facility two cities over or two states over, with the newest treatment options. So what do you suggest for someone who's got a family to feed, a job, and whose insurance if they have it doesn't cover the treatment, and if it did can't take the month off?

If the idea is the medical community ought to catch up to the many OTHER options out there that aren't AA based, fine, I agree 100%. But crapping on the only option available to lots of people AS WE SIT HERE IN THIS REALITY doesn't appear to me all that helpful.

Read the Atlantic article that Crovax posted. It's quite insightful.

One main problem is that AA is often court-mandated; another is that medical treatments for alcohol abuse are rarely explored. The problem is that AA shouldn't be the only option available to anyone, yet by and large it is. That's yet another failure in our medical and mental health systems.

 

[Keridan]

Might be coming to you for some guidance. Thanks, friend!

Please feel absolutely free! I did a little research on different programs when I was trying to find help. AA/NA didn't work for me, but it has for friends and is a great program. There are a few others out there that are less religious or focus on different character traits. I'm more than happy to share my experience and knowledge. Feel free to either DM me or follow up on this thread as needed.

Again, I think it's a great thing you are doing for you friend! If there's any way I can help, I'm more than happy to do so.

 

[Kobie]

And you base this opinion on what?

It's Crovax; he's an asshole and really doesn't know what he's talking about. That said, he's not entirely wrong and he did post a decent link for once.

 

[Kobie]

Lighten up man, sounds like you need a drink :cheers:

Also on board with the idea that this was a dick post.

 

[lurchadams]

That is a good start, and I think you know you weren't being an asshole but a good friend. A friend did that for me a few years ago and I'll always be in his debt for it. Best of luck. It's a tough thing all around. eace

I'll just edit to add that in my experience each group has a pretty distinct personality and way that it's run. There are no rules, really, so it's a reflection of the people in the group, and like any other gathering, will vary a lot depending on the people. Point is if your friend is serious, he should really try go to to a number of different meetings, different places and different times and different days. After a little while he'll know which ones suit him better than others. It makes a big difference, or it does for me.

Just for example, there are some 'purists' or ideologues out there (think self righteous religious people and you know what I'm talking about - there is only ONE way!!), and they sometimes try to run the meeting like little dictators, and I cannot stand it. Some are 'speaker' meetings, with formal talks, and an enforced structure, others are really informal, more like a gathering of friends in your living room. Whatever works.... Those I attend now tend to the latter, informal structure, with lots of leeway depending on what's going on with someone, etc...

Great advice thank you. I'll tell Cal and make sure to observe what happens in the meeting. Thanks again!