• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Sieg Heil! Donald, Mein Fuhrer

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,407
Reaction score
52,292
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
A glimpse at just how easily it comes to be.

The Dangerous Acceptance of Donald Trump - The New Yorker

One by one, people who had not merely resisted him before but called him by his proper name—who, until a month ago, were determined to oppose a man they rightly described as a con artist and a pathological liar—are suddenly getting on board. Columnists and magazines that a month ago were saying #NeverTrump are now vibrating with the frisson of his audacity, fawning over him or at least thrilling to his rising poll numbers and telling one another, “We can control him.’

No, you can't.
 

eohrnberger

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
44,264
Reaction score
28,819
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Surprising really that the far left 'The New Yorker' tries Godwin Trump?
No, not really.
Is it going to be effective in the least?
No, not really. They are preaching to their choir.

/thread
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
107,992
Reaction score
51,927
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
godwin.jpg

No, srsly, can we stop it with the Nazi **** for awhile. As bad as Trump is, he is not a ****ing nazi.
 

American

Bier Meister
Bartender
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
89,631
Reaction score
28,492
Location
SE Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
It was totally different with Hillary. Everyone that's supported her knew UP FRONT she was a conniving, corrupt, lying sack of **** that exposed government secrets and allowed four men to die without trying to help.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,407
Reaction score
52,292
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Brownshirts are out in force, I see.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
View attachment 67201755

No, srsly, can we stop it with the Nazi **** for awhile. As bad as Trump is, he is not a ****ing nazi.

According to Godwin himself:

You know … sure. American history has its own flirtations with fascism and racism and militarism, and people have believed in any and all of these things, so with certain individuals it has to come up from time to time. So it’s not the case that the comparison is never valid. It’s just that, when you make the comparison, think through what you’re saying, because there’s a lot of baggage there, and if you’re going to invoke a historical period with that much baggage you better be ready to carry it.

In other words, if there's enough crap to make the comparison valid, the comparison IS valid.
 

brothern

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
3,921
Reaction score
2,768
Location
Chicago, IL
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
It was totally different with Hillary. Everyone that's supported her knew UP FRONT she was a conniving, corrupt, lying sack of **** that exposed government secrets and allowed four men to die without trying to help.
Whereas the Trump supports didn't know "up front" that Trump is a volatile, narcissistic prick who can't do an interview without (1) exaggerating, (2) insulting someone or (3) acting like a spoiled, bratty child?
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
66,533
Reaction score
33,901
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
View attachment 67201755

No, srsly, can we stop it with the Nazi **** for awhile. As bad as Trump is, he is not a ****ing nazi.

To the extent that you can tease out a consistent philosophy of Trumpism, it is indeed proto-fascism.


Jonah Goldberg wrote this article about the shift of formerly "principled" people to support power two months ago.



Concur with this author's broad statements - Trump isn't an entertaining, boisterous political outsider. He's a thin-skinned authoritarian narcissist with zero interest in being restrained by the Constitution (which is part of what makes some people's insistence that he would nominate judges who would then restrain him so sad).
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
107,992
Reaction score
51,927
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
According to Godwin himself:

You know … sure. American history has its own flirtations with fascism and racism and militarism, and people have believed in any and all of these things, so with certain individuals it has to come up from time to time. So it’s not the case that the comparison is never valid. It’s just that, when you make the comparison, think through what you’re saying, because there’s a lot of baggage there, and if you’re going to invoke a historical period with that much baggage you better be ready to carry it.

In other words, if there's enough crap to make the comparison valid, the comparison IS valid.

I addressed this in the very post you quote. Here, let me help you:

As bad as Trump is, he is not a ****ing nazi.

Did you notice it this time?
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
66,533
Reaction score
33,901
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It was totally different with Hillary. Everyone that's supported her knew UP FRONT she was a conniving, corrupt, lying sack of **** that exposed government secrets and allowed four men to die without trying to help.

Trump hasn't hidden who he is. Everyone who supports him had ample ability to find out who and what he was (a serial liar, a corrupt self-aggrandizer, a liberal authoritarian who seeks power for the sake of power to exercise, confusing Power with the Ends, rather than the Means).
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
66,533
Reaction score
33,901
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I addressed this in the very post you quote. Here, let me help you:

As bad as Trump is, he is not a ****ing nazi.

Did you notice it this time?

Yes. And (respectfully) you are not fully accurate - Trump and Trumpism is indeed comparable to Nazism.

Perhaps you are conflating "Nazi" with "Final Solution", and that explains the discrepancy.
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
107,992
Reaction score
51,927
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
To the extent that you can tease out a consistent philosophy of Trumpism, it is indeed proto-fascism.


Jonah Goldberg wrote this article about the shift of formerly "principled" people to support power two months ago.



Concur with this author's broad statements - Trump isn't an entertaining, boisterous political outsider. He's a thin-skinned authoritarian narcissist with zero interest in being restrained by the Constitution (which is part of what makes some people's insistence that he would nominate judges who would then restrain him so sad).

He is a populist and celebrity. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I addressed this in the very post you quote. Here, let me help you:



Did you notice it this time?

In the beginning, Hitler wasn't as bad as Hitler would one day become.

That said, do we really need to elect a guy who wants everyone of a certain religion to register with the government, who wants to ban the people from the same religion from crossing our borders? Do we really need to go down this road?
 

LowDown

Curmudgeon
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
14,185
Reaction score
8,767
Location
Houston
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian

Trump is supposedly a racist, as fascist, a Nazi, etc.. Why? Because he opposes illegal immigration and is worried about importing terrorists among refugees.

Some of the rhetoric coming from the right is no better. "The Democratic Party is a criminal organization," says one pundit. "'Despicable is too good a word for them." and why did he say this? Because the Democratic Party is following the election rules that they, the Democratic Party, voted on some time back.

Then there was the repeated refrain coming from the Trump campaign about the nomination process being "rigged". Why? Because the Republicans were following the rules they all voted on some time back.

If we don't all rein in this over-the-top rhetoric we'll be sorry.

Besides which, it doesn't do a damn bit of good. That sort of talk just convinces people that the speaker is a fruit loop.
 

Jack Fabulous

Friend Zone
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
Messages
15,508
Reaction score
5,651
Location
midwest
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
In the beginning, Hitler wasn't as bad as Hitler would one day become.

That said, do we really need to elect a guy who wants everyone of a certain religion to register with the government, who wants to ban the people from the same religion from crossing our borders? Do we really need to go down this road?
In the beginning Hitler had not yet had the opportunity.

He was evil long before he ever assumed power.
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
66,533
Reaction score
33,901
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
He is a populist and celebrity. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sadly that is incorrect.

From Paxton:

Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a massed-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

"Hey you, Mr non-College White Guy whose salary has dropped in the last decade, and who has been effectively abandoned by both parties? You know how we're getting screwed - we're getting screwed by China, we're getting screwed by Mexico - America used to be Great, and now we get screwed, and we need to be Great Again. Your concerns about wage competition and losing jobs are being ignored by the Right when you aren't being called a racist and a gun/sky-god clinger by the Left. You need a third way. So check out this Strong Leader who is a Yuuge Winner, this guy who's totally dominating everyone. We're gonna wreck this crap system, get rid of all these illegals, we're gonna tamp down on the press, and then we're gonna win again. We're gonna make deals with the Establishment, but on our terms, because we're gonna be Winners. We're gonna win so much you'll get tired of winning. We're gonna get rid of all these illegals, we're going to get rid of all these loser idiots (or they'll do what we tell them to), and then we're gonna kick the crap out of Mexico, and China, and ISIS, and all those other tough guys out there because now we're Winners, and then we'll be Great Again because Winning."


That's about the Trumpism Spiel. Do you need me to color-code the relevant parts to point out where they mirror?
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
66,533
Reaction score
33,901
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
"We can control him?" I thought one of his greatest appeals among his followers was that nobody could control him.

It's the deal-making part of acceptance.
 

Cardinal

Respected on both sides
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
79,934
Reaction score
59,256
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
View attachment 67201755

No, srsly, can we stop it with the Nazi **** for awhile. As bad as Trump is, he is not a ****ing nazi.

No, he is not literally a Nazi. He has simply built his rise to power on his demagoguery against specific ethnicities and religions, which is one of the primary things Hitler is infamous for. This is not a "Hitler drank coffee, therefore you're like Hitler" type of situation here. The problem with the concept of calling "Godwin's Law" is that it automatically makes the assumption that no comparison to Nazis/Hitler can be valid. As the Hitler comparison is such low hanging fruit and requires no imagination, 99 out of a 100 times that will be true. However, this is that hundredth time. Trump's extreme nationalism and vilification of specific demographics is "Hitler" as all git out.
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
66,533
Reaction score
33,901
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Trump is supposedly a racist, as fascist, a Nazi, etc.. Why? Because he opposes illegal immigration and is worried about importing terrorists among refugees.

Nope. Lots of people oppose increased immigration, illegal immigration, and bringing in large numbers of refugees without appropriate and thorough security checks.

Trump is considered a fascist because (...drumroll...) his political philosophy falls within the ideological boundaries of fascism.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
In the beginning Hitler had not yet had the opportunity.

He was evil long before he ever assumed power.

I'm not so sure about that. Was he evil when he was a corporal and was decorated for retrieving his commander's body under heavy enemy fire? I don't know.

As far as I can tell, he was not evil in the beginning, but he was so bitter not just at Germany's loss in WWI, but particularly at the humiliation forced on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles...and it was this bitterness, compounded by the demands for reparations during the worst economy in living memory during the Weimar Republic, that made him evil.
 
Top Bottom