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- Sep 9, 2011
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I always worry about people who are so concerned to designate others differently than others designate themselves Trans-people don't hurt you at all. Your hostility seems rather excessive. You sound like you picked someone up at a bar and found out later they were a man. `
You are free to pretend you are a woman if you want. I will not stop you. But i will not go along with your pretending. Sorry. I was raised not to tell lies, not even trivial ones for comfort. And if I catch you in the same bathroom as my future daughter I will treat you as a perverted man. Sorry you werent [sic] born as a girl. Its not my fault.
Im [sic] sorry that I dont [sic] think you are a pretty little lady and want to breed with you. But you dont [sic] need to try to make me feel guilty. Life is hard.
“What a sad era when it is easier to smash an atom than a prejudice.”
― Albert Einstein
Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves.”
― George Gordon Byron
“Someone has said that it requires less mental effort to condemn than to think.”
― Emma Goldman
“Our love of lockstep is our greatest curse, the source of all that bedevils us. It is the source of homophobia, xenophobia, racism, sexism, terrorism, bigotry of every variety and hue, because it tells us there is one right way to do things, to look, to behave, to feel, when the only right way is to feel your heart hammering inside you and to listen to what its timpani is saying.”
― Anna Quindlen
“Bigotry dwarfs the soul by shutting out the truth.”
― E.H. Chapin
“The imagination is truly the enemy of bigotry and dogma.”
― Ursula K. Le Guin
“The scientist believes in proof without certainty, the bigot in certainty without proof.”
― Ashley Montagu, Science and Creationism
“But why should he be open-minded when he thinks he’s right?”
― Johnny Rich, The Human Script
“A bigot is a stone-deaf orator.”
― Kahlil Gibran, Sand and Foam
“Fear and bigotry don’t need explaining. They simply are, like traffic jams and taxes.”
― Eileen Wilks, Death Magic
Of course id handle it the same for a son. And where did I threaten anything? Why do you demonize people who dont agree with you. I meet lots of perverted people and I never threaten them. I never mentioned sexual assualt. THAT i would kill for. Now that is a threat.
I think it should be noted that there are varying degrees of bodily dysphoria in transgender individuals.
You said that would treat a transwoman in the same restroom as your daughter as a perverted man. How exactly are you supposed to determine whether she is a transferable or a cis female?
I guess my doubts are really rooted in the terminology and how it's applied. For example, for the vast majority of people (who would be labeled as "cis") I'm not convinced that they "have" a gender in the way that transgender people typically describe gender - as some deep rooted sense of self and identity that can be described in terms of femininity, masculinity, or something in between. When "cis" guys say they feel like men, I don't see any evidence that what they really are referring to isn't either the social constructs surrounding gender and gender roles or the physical aspects of having "male" labelled body parts and hormones. Some guess that because there isn't an incongruence in cis people, they don't have anything to notice, but it's important to notice that that's just a theory I guess is what I'm saying. We know that a lot if not all of the dysphoria is directly or indirectly related to trans people not being perceived and referred to as what they feel, I'm just not entirely sure of what it is that they're feeling and how that should actually be defined.An excellent post, Zom. Thank you. I indicated in my last post that I would not respond except to people of good intent and here you are!
I was prepared to respond to people who doubt or even deny the existence of transgenderism. I did not think I would get serious argument about the existence of gender dysphoria which, as you say, does vary widely. I was not prepared for the flat declarations of a conclusion - you are male. Period. End of discussion. No consideration given even to what it means to be male or female or the difference between biological sex and gender identity which is embedded in the DSM-V's treatment of GD.
I respect your questions regarding the existence of gender identity, that internal sense we have of being male or female. I feel mine deeply but I wonder if that ability to feel a disconnect between gender identity and sex assigned at birth is open to the cis-gender population. I do not think there is much question that trans people feel a different gender identity compared to their biological sex at birth - that is a rough definition of gender dysphoria.
Do your doubts relate more to the etiology of gender dysphoria?
I appreciate your thoughtful and kind approach to this topic.
Allie
An excellent post, Zom. Thank you. I indicated in my last post that I would not respond except to people of good intent and here you are!
I was prepared to respond to people who doubt or even deny the existence of transgenderism. I did not think I would get serious argument about the existence of gender dysphoria which, as you say, does vary widely. I was not prepared for the flat declarations of a conclusion - you are male. Period. End of discussion. No consideration given even to what it means to be male or female or the difference between biological sex and gender identity which is embedded in the DSM-V's treatment of GD.
I respect your questions regarding the existence of gender identity, that internal sense we have of being male or female. I feel mine deeply but I wonder if that ability to feel a disconnect between gender identity and sex assigned at birth is open to the cis-gender population. I do not think there is much question that trans people feel a different gender identity compared to their biological sex at birth - that is a rough definition of gender dysphoria.
Do your doubts relate more to the etiology of gender dysphoria?
I appreciate your thoughtful and kind approach to this topic.
Allie
I guess my doubts are really rooted in the terminology and how it's applied.
Interesting to see you disregard my need to classify things on my own term. Yet i leave your classification of yourself alone. You are a 1 way street yourself. Seems hypocritical and you are resorting more to pity and guilt tripping. Accusing others of ignoring yet you ignore. Then go and try to shove it in people you ignored faces by including stipulations of praise to those who jumped through your hoops.
Why am I wrong for wanting to catagorize individuals as "effiminate males" and "masculine females" and you are right for wanting to catagorize them as "men trapped in a womans body" and "women trapped in mens bodies". When all i want is for me to be able to classify things on my own term without you trying to guilt trip and always pull the victim card.
Its seems like you want me to agree to everything on your part or I am a monster. Which makes me think you dont want to educate and debate, you just want to rub peoples face in ****.
In an earlier post you said my nature was "pretend" and a "lie." If you caught me in a bathroom with your daughter you would "treat me as a perverted man." You expressed faux sympathy for me being born a man. You were sorry that you did not think I was a "pretty little lady" or that you did not want to "breed" with me.
You ended with the assertion of a "right to classify and categorize stuff on my own terms."
Being that "stuff" which you are "classifying and categorizing," I do not see you as having any significant rights in play. I also do not see us having intercourse in any form.
I do not care if you do not think I am a pretty little lady and do not think of myself in those terms on most days. (Hint: Most women never think of themselves in these terms. We always find fault no matter our size. This has been a huge epiphany now that most of my friends are cis-women. Welcome to the beauty culture!)
You assume I want to "breed" with you. Assuming you mean have sex, I do not breed indiscriminately and never with men. I am dating a very nice lesbian who is amazing.
Even though I am lowly "stuff," I do have to go to the bathroom. Looking far more female than male, having female hormones, a vagina, breasts and an F on my driver's license, I go to the female bathroom. I think you, and those like you, would "treat me as a perverted man" whichever bathroom I entered. FYI, there has never been a case of a trans person harming anyone in a bathroom. Men with fully functioning organs and a sex-drive powered by male hormones are far more likely to commit acts of sexual abuse against women in any setting than my population.
[/insert sarcasm font]I am sorry you felt ignored [/end font] but I do not feel we have a basis on which to have a reasonable discussion.
Do you think that maybe some people fantasize about being a woman? And they think they will be more desired if they were a woman? Like say a guy who wants to date other guys. Specifically a guy who wants to date guys who want vaginas. Is it possible that their "fantasy" gets construed with social man vs woman norms? Back since before i went through puberty I wanted to be a pretty woman that attracted. I felt like vaginas were more powerful and I fantasized and wish I had one. Can an effiminate guy who feels like a woman ALSO let their fantasies convelute their state of being in their plight to feel desired? As in maybe some guys just really really really wish they had a puss and they are allowing their sincere side and their "perverted" side to merge into a conveluted mess for the exact type of attention they crave?
Back around puberty I used to see how much girls enjoyed sex in porn. All the moaning and stuff. And then id see the guys just going at it without an expression on their face. And it used to make me wish I was female, because they obviously have more pleasure and attention. But then I learned to moan as a guy.
I think i used to mix my effeminate psyche with my sexual desire and fantasies. But then I unconfused myself by thinking outside of societies classifications.
If you dont have a penis then I dont care about you entering the womens bathroom what so ever. Have fun in there. Hope it all comes out alright.
No, no penis but, again, there has never been a case of a trans person attacking anyone in a bathroom. Ever. Anywhere. This is a fear based concocted non-issue.
Just so you know, sexual desire goes way down when you take t-blockers and estrogen. Alan Turing was sentenced to this kind of "chemical castration" for the crime of being gay. Within a month ejaculate looks like preseminal fluid. By six months, most cannot get an erection and, if they could climax, it will be a few drops of this preseminal fluid. We also get emotional quite a bit but that is not relevant here...
Will you add those who dress 24/7 female and have been "chemically castrated?" Just curious....
Thats where I have issues. If the penis exists there should be bathroom segregation. I guess every place open to public will either have to have 1 person occupancy gender neutral bathrooms or 3 different bathrooms for Male, Female, and Omni.
**** you.As a matter of objective, undeniable, biological and scientific fact, you are, and will always be, male, not female. All the politically-correct crap that has been built around your condition does not change the solid truth. You are male, and to think that you are or can become female is delusional, perverse, and insane.
And you have no legitimate business going into women's dressing rooms, locker rooms, restrooms, or similar facilities.
You are not any more female than this guy is a lizard.
**** you.
Succinctly expressing my opinion of a post?What an amazingly helpful contribution to the thread.
Thats where I have issues. If the penis exists there should be bathroom segregation. I guess every place open to public will either have to have 1 person occupancy gender neutral bathrooms or 3 different bathrooms for Male, Female, and Omni.
part of me being a libertarian is allowing someone else to determine what they consider themselves to be
There's a big push on the left to have gender removed from birth certificates. The left seems to think we should all have the option to fill in the blank however we are "feeling" on any day.
Scientifically, it is impossible to erase your birth sex. One can alter their appearance with surgeries, hormones, makeup and wigs but at the end of the day genetically they are the sex they were born. Hence the push to have it removed from birth certificates. And because of this fact, I do not know how one could justify in law a person born a male at birth but looks like a woman to be a woman by law.
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