Should the US take some lessons from Poland, Finland and South Korea?

[Jack Hays]

Education standards

Best and brightest

Only a few countries are teaching children how to think 124

The Smartest Kids in the World: And How They Got That Way. By Amanda Ripley. Simon and Schuster; 320 pages; $28. Buy from Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk
BAMA Companies has been making pies and biscuits in Oklahoma since the 1920s. But the company is struggling to find Okies with the skills to fill even its most basic factory jobs. Such posts require workers to think critically, yet graduates of local schools are often unable to read or do simple maths. This is why the company recently decided to open a new factory in Poland—its first in Europe. “We hear that educated people are plentiful,” explains Paula Marshall, Bama’s boss.

 

[sangha]

If you read between the lines, the article basically states that every right wing idea about education (ex. local control, tracking, emphasizing sports) is wrong

 

[Fisher]

We would be better off following the Irish model, but it will never happen. The idea that kids might be restricted in major shopping or have to redo a year of high school at their own expense to retake the test to expand their fields of choice in college would be unpalatable to those who believe that people should not have to be held personally responsible for or suffer any negative consequence of their own laziness/bad decisions.

 

[Manc Skipper]

The Celtic tiger's a starving kitten now, didn't you notice?

 

[Peter Grimm]

Poland, Finland, and South Korea are homogenous populations. Their challenges and our challenges are completely different.

 

[Cameron]

Poland, Finland, and South Korea are homogenous populations. Their challenges and our challenges are completely different.

Which tactics of those countries would be frustrated by U.S. diversity?

 

[CalGun]

Academia - Government - Media

The worst trilateral union of them all.

Until public employee unions are terminated and banished from reality any dollar put into public education is a wasted dollar.

 

[Peter Grimm]

Which tactics of those countries would be frustrated by U.S. diversity?

You're asking the wrong question. From the ground up, their societies are different from ours. You're comparing apples to oranges. What works in Finland or South Korea will not work in South Chicago.

The US spends more on education than any other country in the world. It's not that we're not putting immense resources in to our kids.

 

[Cameron]

You're asking the wrong question. From the ground up, their societies are different from ours. You're comparing apples to oranges. What works in Finland or South Korea will not work in South Chicago.

Why? Apples and oranges may be different, but both respond well to fertilizer (that may not be true, not a farmer here, but you see what I mean). I don't understand why our diversity is the problem. What techniques that they are using are incompatible with a non-homogenous population, such that what works for them would not work for us?

The US spends more on education than any other country in the world. It's not that we're not putting immense resources in to our kids.

It may be that we are spending it in the wrong ways, or on the wrong kids. The article notes that in some of these other countries, resources are aimed primarily at children who need it most, whereas in the US, public education is funded by property taxes which ensures that the wealthy are better educated than the poor.

 

[Peter Grimm]

Why? Apples and oranges may be different, but both respond well to fertilizer (that may not be true, not a farmer here, but you see what I mean). I don't understand why our diversity is the problem. What techniques that they are using are incompatible with a non-homogenous population, such that what works for them would not work for us?.

I've lived in Scandinavia, so at least on the Finnish side I can tell you from my own experience. You can have national standards and national programs like that in Finland because culturally, they are mostly all in agreement.

Here, you will have arguments like: Should we pray in school? Should we teach evolution? Should we teach sex ed? Should we teach the constitution? How much foreign language should the kids learn? Which one to teach them? Etc etc.

You see, there is not one solution that works for all Americans. In Finland, you go from village to village and the family values, the kids, the culture, they are all in line with each other. That is NOT the case in America.

We need a mixed strategy here, whereas they don't need one over there.

It may be that we are spending it in the wrong ways, or on the wrong kids. The article notes that in some of these other countries, resources are aimed primarily at children who need it most, whereas in the US, public education is funded by property taxes which ensures that the wealthy are better educated than the poor.

I prefer the American system - if you work hard and make good money, you can live in a nice neighborhood, and you take part in your kids education by funding it locally. You can take part in PTA. You are much more hands on as a community.

In Scandinavia, there is no PTA, there is no local school boards, everything is national and very hands-off for the local community and parents.

I think you are looking at reading and maths averages and drawing poor conclusions from it. The problem is not the education system, the problem is cultural. For example, Korean families are known to stress education to the extreme. They have strong nuclear families.

In the case of the United States, our average scores are dragged down in part by the black community. The problem there is not a lack of federal education dollars to mostly black schools, the problem is a lack of emphasis on education in the black community. The incidence of single motherhood is staggeringly high, so often mom is not around to make sure her son is doing his homework, etc.

You have areas in the US where high school graduation rates are far under 50%. That is not due to a lack of funds, but rather to a lack of willingness to complete one's education. Anyone can finish high school if they try... the problem is a lot of those kids don't try. So why is that? That can only be solved from a cultural shift, not by throwing money at the problem.

No, if we were to take money from the middle class schools and give them to the poor schools, that would only serve to drag the middle down, it would do very little to raise the floor.

 

[Peter Grimm]

If you read between the lines, the article basically states that every right wing idea about education (ex. local control, tracking, emphasizing sports) is wrong

You're right, American education is garbage. That's why we crush every other country in the world when it comes to Nobel Prize winners, especially in the sciences.

But you know.... you liberals have it right. Screw Nobel Prizes, what we need to do is dump all our resources in to bringing up the bottom of the pack, so that they go from being really dumb to being only sort of dumb, and so that way our "average" scores go up.

With any luck, our economy can look just like Poland's in a few years. Whoopee.

 

[Boo Radley]

You're right, American education is garbage. That's why we crush every other country in the world when it comes to Nobel Prize winners, especially in the sciences.

But you know.... you liberals have it right. Screw Nobel Prizes, what we need to do is dump all our resources in to bringing up the bottom of the pack, so that they go from being really dumb to being only sort of dumb, and so that way our "average" scores go up.

With any luck, our economy can look just like Poland's in a few years. Whoopee.

Would that change what the article said? You may disagree with the article, but it is odd that often conservatives point to countries that are socialistic as models. After watching a Stossel bit on education, a foreign student laughed and asked if he was so stupid as to not know hose countries were socialist, government run education.

 

[Peter Grimm]

Would that change what the article said? You may disagree with the article, but it is odd that often conservatives point to countries that are socialistic as models. After watching a Stossel bit on education, a foreign student laughed and asked if he was so stupid as to not know hose countries were socialist, government run education.

I think socialistic models have merit, just not in the USA. We're too big and diverse, and we can't agree on anything. For socialism to work, one of two things has to happen. You can have a leader that rules with an iron fist. Nobody wants that. The other option is that the vast majority in the country agree and don't have divergent viewpoints.

That's why socialism is a better idea, IMO, for Sweden than it still for us.

Socialism is a one size fits all solution. It can be good, but everyone better like what they're putting on.

 

[Boo Radley]

I think socialistic models have merit, just not in the USA. We're too big and diverse, and we can't agree on anything. For socialism to work, one of two things has to happen. You can have a leader that rules with an iron fist. Nobody wants that. The other option is that the vast majority in the country agree and don't have divergent viewpoints.

That's why socialism is a better idea, IMO, for Sweden than it still for us.

Socialism is a one size fits all solution. It can be good, but everyone better like what they're putting on.

Not sure I accept that, but I'm not calling for socialism. Only pointing those are the examples many conservatives point to.

 

[imagep]

Academia - Government - Media

The worst trilateral union of them all.

Until public employee unions are terminated and banished from reality any dollar put into public education is a wasted dollar.

Not every state has public employee unions, yet many of the states that don't have those unions have some of the worst educational outcomes. Like my state. I actually agree with you that we should get rid of public employee unions, but that in itself isn't a magic cure for our education woes.

 

[Fisher]

The Celtic tiger's a starving kitten now, didn't you notice?

Yes I have noticed that England, as always, is a poor master, a problem we rectified for ourselves a couple hundred years ago (much to our advantage) :mrgreen:

 

[Mr X]

Not every state has public employee unions, yet many of the states that don't have those unions have some of the worst educational outcomes. Like my state. I actually agree with you that we should get rid of public employee unions, but that in itself isn't a magic cure for our education woes.

Unions do more than just collective bargaining. They mediate in grievance proceedings, act as workers representatives to senior management, help give employees legal advice, advise workers of their rights in disciplinary proceedings.
Why should state workers be denied these important workplace provisions?

 

[CalGun]

It is a good start. Here in CA they are the 3rd biggest lobby, people don't get elected to school boards unless they are union supported in most cases, and the term its for the "children" means really the teachers. I think teachers pay should be increased and teachers defined benefit retirement packages need to be terminated. These are "educated" people (teachers) let them manage their own 401k or IRA like the rest of society.

Not every state has public employee unions, yet many of the states that don't have those unions have some of the worst educational outcomes. Like my state. I actually agree with you that we should get rid of public employee unions, but that in itself isn't a magic cure for our education woes.

 

[Rainman05]

Why? Apples and oranges may be different, but both respond well to fertilizer (that may not be true, not a farmer here, but you see what I mean). I don't understand why our diversity is the problem. What techniques that they are using are incompatible with a non-homogenous population, such that what works for them would not work for us?

It may be that we are spending it in the wrong ways, or on the wrong kids. The article notes that in some of these other countries, resources are aimed primarily at children who need it most, whereas in the US, public education is funded by property taxes which ensures that the wealthy are better educated than the poor.

If you apply the standards of those countries to the USA, you'd have some ethnic groups screaming about culturally biased testing because the culture that breeds performance in one group is not wholly accepted by the other.

... wait a second...

 

[haymarket]

If you read between the lines, the article basically states that every right wing idea about education (ex. local control, tracking, emphasizing sports) is wrong

But it is their right to believe such drivel. Attacking their self imposed belief system is akin to attacking religion since for them there is precious little difference.

 

[Jack Hays]

But it is their right to believe such drivel. Attacking their self imposed belief system is akin to attacking religion since for them there is precious little difference.

Wrong all around.

 

[AristocraticRep]

You're asking the wrong question. From the ground up, their societies are different from ours. You're comparing apples to oranges. What works in Finland or South Korea will not work in South Chicago.

The US spends more on education than any other country in the world. It's not that we're not putting immense resources in to our kids.

First of all, I hate the apples and oranges expression. Of course you can compare the two. Second, as the article states, it's not about how much money we put into it. It's about teaching the students how to think critically, and as a high school student in Florida (not exactly the best state for education) I can testify to the fact that we are not taught to think critically. It's all about quantitative testing and how much we can remember from the unit we just covered. We don't learn how to problem solve or to use the underlying lesson from what we are being taught and apply it to something else, instead we are drilled on one topic and then move onto the next one without gaining much from it. For the most part, kids who are able to think critically either do a lot of reading outside of school or are just very gifted. I personally enjoy reading classical books as well as learning as much as I can from internet resources, and I've probably learned almost as much from those two avenues as I have in school. The issue isn't a demographic one, instead it's the overall approach. Sure, we would have to tweak it for our cultural differences, but not by as much as you are making out.