Should the US increase military commitments with the Philippines against China’s growing dominance in the South China Sea?

[RetiredUSN]

So by you USN retired enlisted engine room guy France has better shit than the U.S. does.

Yet as I noted in scrolling, Tokyo and Washington wanted Canberra to buy the superior Japanese Soryu silent and lethal conventional sub instead of the French headline Barracuda sub. And each Tokyo and Washington were severely disappointed by the decision in Canberra to buy subs from France instead of Japan -- in order for Canberra not to piss off the Chinese by buying Japanese superior subs.

As we see in this solid allied agreement among U.S. UK. Australia, China is screwed which is why the Boyz in Beijing are howling so loudly against it.

So when the shit hits the fan it's the end of yet another grandiose Chinese fantasy and delusional dream. Indeed, Chinese history is littered with its a priori failed Chinese grandiose schemes of failed dynasty after failed dynasty -- each and every one of 'em over a succession of thousands of years -- to include the present CCP dynasty in their business suits and Florsheim shoes who as a Chinese dynasty are predestined to fail, fail, fail.

First of all, I never mentioned France's quality vs the US. And secondly, what you know about engineering could fit into a thimble.

The US military is used to delays and huge cost overruns while building ships as we can absorb it easier than the Ozzies. The Australians will learn soon enough that the sub program will cost a hell of a lot more than quoted.

Meanwhile......we can't build a better shitter system that doesn't require 400,000 dollar acid flushes.

The U.S.'s $13 Billion Aircraft Carrier Has a Toilet Problem

It’s yet another headache plaguing America's newest aircraft carrier.

www.popularmechanics.com

I wouldn't trust the American government with building a shoe box, never mind converting my country to nuke boats.

 

[Tangmo]

First of all, I never mentioned France's quality vs the US. And secondly, what you know about engineering could fit into a thimble.

The US military is used to delays and huge cost overruns while building ships as we can absorb it easier than the Ozzies. The Australians will learn soon enough that the sub program will cost a hell of a lot more than quoted.

Meanwhile......we can't build a better shitter system that doesn't require 400,000 dollar acid flushes.

The U.S.'s $13 Billion Aircraft Carrier Has a Toilet Problem

It’s yet another headache plaguing America's newest aircraft carrier.

www.popularmechanics.com

I wouldn't trust the American government with building a shoe box, never mind converting my country to nuke boats.

The Aussies know they will get U.S. nuclear powered subs that are effective and awesome whether critics like it or not.

No shit.

CCP Boyz in Beijing are hysterical against it and the French MIC is busted by it, which means France will need to rely on the U.S. MIC greater than ever before, which is good for democracy, ie, USA.

It all comes back to U.S. technical expertise and global dominance of the seas in accordance with the International Law of the Sea and the extant international order of democracy, liberty, fraternity. The U.S. since Adm. Mahon at the turn of the 20th century has never allowed a regional power to dominate its region. Which in present terms means both Paris and Beijing are ****ed. As for France, this means it is screwed in its DeGaulle compulsion to be independent from the USA.

Indeed, Washington, London, Canberra have put the screws to France to accept U.S. dominance or to suffer the demise of the France MIC which is a most serious issue in France. In other words, the Anglo-American world order has grabbed France by the balls in this one to demand successfully that it submit.

 

[Oozlefinch]

France will simply need to get over it. They should keep their thinking caps on longer to come up with other 'gadgets' for the US to buy. France knows that they need the US as an ally, so they are in no position to slap us around over this nuke deal that the Aussie's got. Plus, it's a good thing to bring a little sunshine to our friends in Australia. imo

France over the last 70+ years has been the most fractious of allies. They helped found NATO, left, rejoined, and there is talk it may leave yet again. They tend to resent the fact that they needed the help from the US to be "liberated" during WWII, and how the French Resistance was romanticized and inflated only added to that.

Myself, I could not honestly care less what France does. Or most other countries on the planet. Each country is independent, and is free to do what they want. Make a deal for equipment with Russia, France, China, the US, England, or anybody else. If other countries get butt hurt about it, then they need to look at why that might have happened. In this case, I bet that it was simply that the US was offering nuclear subs instead of the same Diesel-Electric ones that France was offering that made the difference. D-E is good for local defense, but in the modern era they are not that great for projecting any kind of power. And require a lot more support than nuclear ones while at sea.

 

[beerftw]

The Aussies know they will get U.S. nuclear powered subs that are effective and awesome whether critics like it or not.

No shit.

CCP Boyz in Beijing are hysterical against it and the French MIC is busted by it, which means France will need to rely on the U.S. MIC greater than ever before, which is good for democracy, ie, USA.

It all comes back to U.S. technical expertise and global dominance of the seas in accordance with the International Law of the Sea and the extant international order of democracy, liberty, fraternity. The U.S. since Adm. Mahon at the turn of the 20th century has never allowed a regional power to dominate its region. Which in present terms means both Paris and Beijing are ****ed. As for France, this means it is screwed in its DeGaulle compulsion to be independent from the USA.

Indeed, Washington, London, Canberra have put the screws to France to accept U.S. dominance or to suffer the demise of the France MIC which is a most serious issue in France. In other words, the Anglo-American world order has grabbed France by the balls in this one to demand successfully that it submit.

You just make the united states sound like a mean bully that will eventually get it's ass kicked when everyone it orders around turns against it.

I do not think you come even close to representing what America thinks, but rather some delusional dictatorship fantasy you want to happen that is devoid of reality.

 

[beerftw]

Ooops. Looks like this submarine deal has gotten the French all bent out of shape over it. My response. Too bad. I suggest that the US buys more French wine to soften their butt hurt.

France and China are furious over the U.S.'s new defense pact with Australia and the U.K.

In light of its deal with the U.S., Australia has cancelled its submarine contract with the French, which various media reports have estimated to be worth between $50 billion and $90 billion. One Australian outlet had dubbed it the "contract of the century."

"The American choice to exclude a European ally and partner such as France from a structuring partnership with Australia, at a time when we are facing unprecedented challenges in the Indo-Pacific region ... shows a lack of coherence that France can only note and regret," they added.

Part of the butthurt was that the original deal included not just subs but transfer of tech and manufacturing capabilities, in which training the aussies to build and understand the french subs was not a simple task. This was a big deal but at the same time it would have left australia the capability to produce more subs without having to rely on france to do so.

Granted buying american tech in a faster manner might be more expedient, but at the same time is america handing them everything they need to produce their own stuff entirely in house as well as full tech transfer allowing the auusies to fully modify everything?

To the west it looks like america made a better deal, to the french it looks like the french made the deal of a lifetime and america convinced australia to ditch it in order to buy another nations subs. Yes the french are going to be mad for quite a while, to them this looks less like a alliance thing and more like a backstab your neighbors and friends kind of thing, like it had more to do with selling subs than actually over an alliance.

 

[Fledermaus]

First of all, I never mentioned France's quality vs the US. And secondly, what you know about engineering could fit into a thimble.

The US military is used to delays and huge cost overruns while building ships as we can absorb it easier than the Ozzies. The Australians will learn soon enough that the sub program will cost a hell of a lot more than quoted.

Meanwhile......we can't build a better shitter system that doesn't require 400,000 dollar acid flushes.

The U.S.'s $13 Billion Aircraft Carrier Has a Toilet Problem

It’s yet another headache plaguing America's newest aircraft carrier.

www.popularmechanics.com

I wouldn't trust the American government with building a shoe box, never mind converting my country to nuke boats.

Tangmo tends to strawman and otherwise fib about what others post.

Don't take it personal.

Scorpion and the frog.

 

[Tangmo]

You just make the united states sound like a mean bully that will eventually get it's ass kicked when everyone it orders around turns against it.

I do not think you come even close to representing what America thinks, but rather some delusional dictatorship fantasy you want to happen that is devoid of reality.

Alas, this is a sovereign decision taken by the government of Australia that was reacting to Oz becoming a Department of France because of the submarine deal.

Aussie technicians and engineers who are in France acquiring the knowledge and skills to build high end conventional subs will return home now. The hundreds of French families that have colonized South Australia surely will return to France. Construction of French shipbuilding facilities is now mooted.

Paris has made clear it will pull its new corporate investments from Oz that have been moving into Oz since the sub deal was agreed and announced. French research labs being established in Oz are being pulled as are new agreements between universities in Oz and unis in France. The new teaching of French language in Adelaide schools est finis.

And so on to include the post Brexit FTA Oz is negotiating with EU and that Macron is going to make very difficult for Canberra.

Oz has opted to enable an Anglophone Alliance of itself, UK, USA and become only the second country the U.S., shares its nuclear technology with, in addition to the UK. Each of the three English speaking countries has a multiplicity of multinational agreements and alliances so it's not like this new and high powered alliance is a turn inward, because it's not. To paraphrase Churchill, it's three peoples separated by a common language joining to screw a common foe, China, where the butt hurt exceeds even that of the common ally France.

 

[bomberfox]

China is attacking our shipping?

I’m saying it’s absurd to claim the Chinese committed genocide on the Chinese. They killed lots of their own people. It wasn’t by definition a genocide.

The uighur genocide is very much by definition genocide. Its very much like how canadians treated the indigenous.

 

[bomberfox]

France over the last 70+ years has been the most fractious of allies. They helped found NATO, left, rejoined, and there is talk it may leave yet again. They tend to resent the fact that they needed the help from the US to be "liberated" during WWII, and how the French Resistance was romanticized and inflated only added to that.

Myself, I could not honestly care less what France does. Or most other countries on the planet. Each country is independent, and is free to do what they want. Make a deal for equipment with Russia, France, China, the US, England, or anybody else. If other countries get butt hurt about it, then they need to look at why that might have happened. In this case, I bet that it was simply that the US was offering nuclear subs instead of the same Diesel-Electric ones that France was offering that made the difference. D-E is good for local defense, but in the modern era they are not that great for projecting any kind of power. And require a lot more support than nuclear ones while at sea.

We do better as a team player.

 

[ecofarm]

Really! americans complaining about china converting small islands into a milirtary base. I am guessing it is different because your the ****ing good guys.

No one is that ignorant.

 

[bomberfox]

Also known as "dealing with reality".

I wonder if those who scream about the US "dealing with dictators" would be in support of the US suddenly going on a crusade to "liberate" every nation under a "dictatorship". We actually were like that, once. A lot of Americans cheered as many of the leaders of our ally went back to France after helping us win our War of Independence, and they tried to free their own country from Monarchy.

Then we sat back in horror and watched the French Revolution and its aftermath. And sadly, every century or so we end up repeating that, having forgotten what happened.

Even such individuals who were all for "Liberty" like Jefferson sat back in horror at what happened there. Sometimes, a Dictator is the only way to keep a fractious population in line. Tito is a great example of that. He kept the lid on Yugoslavia for 36 years. Often harsh, but he was harsh equally to any who tried to create strife in the country he helped form. A Croat by birth, he would come down just as hard if a group of Croats tried to cause strife as he would it it was a Serbian or any other group. And we should all know what happened once he died. Sadly, this unity did not last and in less than a decade the entire nation was wracked by horrible civil wars and fragmented.

Generalissimo Francisco Franco (who is still valiantly struggling to stay dead after 46 years) was similar. A Dictator, but also a Monarchist, who mostly was concerned with no groups upsetting the peace he helped pound out after the Spanish Civil War. Staying neutral in WWII, but with rather liberal economic policies that saw Spain rise above many others after WWII. Then finally restoring the Monarchy once he felt the nation was stable enough to hand back over to Constitutional rule.

Then again the monarchy deserved to be beheaded. What happens afterward does not negate the fact the monarchy was abusing the citizenry. Same with the Tsar who made conditions worse than post revolution Russia.

 

[bomberfox]

Actually, it was not. That was never the goal. It was to make Germany and all regions they controlled "Judenfrei". They largely did not care about Jews that lived outside of Germany.

Once again, you distort reality in a way that it fits your own beliefs.

Lol thats why they wouldnt stop invading other countries right? Speak for yourself.

 

[ouch]

To the west it looks like america made a better deal, to the french it looks like the french made the deal of a lifetime and america convinced australia to ditch it in order to buy another nations subs. Yes the french are going to be mad for quite a while, to them this looks less like a alliance thing and more like a backstab your neighbors and friends kind of thing, like it had more to do with selling subs than actually over an alliance.

Again, France will simply have to get over it. True, it's a backstabbing game going on just about everywhere, but going very far back in history, backstabbing has become a way of life. Some may even say backstabbing begets survival. Usually, after a few years, the particular butt hurt will subside, and, or something much bigger somewhere planet Earth (good or bad) happens that erases previous butt hurts. We are well over due now for that 'much bigger' event any time now, so proper alliances are in order. Not only am I appreciative of the Aussies but glad that we're able to further seal our friendship with them today. It's also nice that Australia gets along well with both the Philippines and Indonesia. The South China Sea connected waterways depends on that in the best interest of the West as well.

 

[Questerr]

The uighur genocide is very much by definition genocide. Its very much like how canadians treated the indigenous.

I was addressing the claim that “The Great Leap Forward” was a “genocide”

 

[Oozlefinch]

We do better as a team player.

And when one of the players does not like working with others, is that my problem or theirs?

The US has worked with many partners over the last 7 decades. France has largely often worked by herself. And when help was offered, demanded to be completely in charge.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Then again the monarchy deserved to be beheaded.

And all of the aristocracy? Including at least 20 children under the age of 14? And those are only the ones publicly executed, hundreds of the children of the aristocracy went missing during the Revolution, and were never seen again.

Sorry, I can barely comprehend somebody actually thinking that entire groups of people should be beheaded. This is why I find the entire nonsense of "Class Warfare" is nothing but people wanting to savagely relive the "glory days" where they could behead all those that they see as living over them.

 

[bomberfox]

And all of the aristocracy? Including at least 20 children under the age of 14? And those are only the ones publicly executed, hundreds of the children of the aristocracy went missing during the Revolution, and were never seen again.

Sorry, I can barely comprehend somebody actually thinking that entire groups of people should be beheaded. This is why I find the entire nonsense of "Class Warfare" is nothing but people wanting to savagely relive the "glory days" where they could behead all those that they see as living over them.

The monarchy itself was a detriment to the people to the point starvation. This is oversimplistic garbage. The tsar and his white army was indeed engaging in class warfare. I find your apologism for Franco to be as bad as Prager U cheering on Robert E Lee for defeating John Brown.

 

[bomberfox]

And when one of the players does not like working with others, is that my problem or theirs?

The US has worked with many partners over the last 7 decades. France has largely often worked by herself. And when help was offered, demanded to be completely in charge.

Working as a team player was instrumental in winning WW II as General Marshal’s success showed. This atomized view of the world no longer holds.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Lol thats why they wouldnt stop invading other countries right? Speak for yourself.

Uh, you do know that they never intended on actually invading France, right? Or Italy? Or most of Northern Europe?

I am in no way an apologist for Der Paper Hangar and his band of moronic lunatics. But Germany no more wanted to take control of all of Europe than Japan wanted to fight the US. But once the war got going, they had no real choice. If the Ultimatum had never been made about Poland and the Phony War started, odds are Germany would never have moved West, and would have been perfectly content to just pause, then work it's way East. The Soviets were always their goal, not Western Europe. He only went that direction because the UK and France declared war against him. The same with the Northern nations. That is why they were given a lot of autonomy when compared to the actual nations the Germans wanted to conquer. Most of the NAZI Party (like the Marxists) believed that they were the "wave of the future", and that all eventually would join them voluntarily. And it was not an unreasonable thought, as can be seen in the German-American Bund, and the BUF. Each of those countries invaded was largely turned over to local Fascist groups that often existed a decade before the war even started.

BUF started as the "British Fascist Party", way back in 1923. Both the Nazis and Fascists thought they were the wave of the future.

You are making these silly statements, apparently being completely unaware of what all was going on at the time.

And yes, in the same way Japan never wanted to fight the US. But they had no choice, because the US had a major presence right in between the Home Islands, and the resource regions that they really wanted. And Japan was more then aware that unlike the war in Europe, it would have to be the aggressor and declare war against the UK. Which unlike where the UK declared war against Germany, this would likely start to cause even the Isolationist movement in the US to start demanding their involvement. More of the rapid build-up that was already underway in the Philippines, even more overt aid to the Chinese. And more time to build up their forces in the Pacific.

So it was attack early and fast, or risk the US coming in when they were overextended and trying to absorb their new conquests with a heavily fortified position in the Philippines.

What you said makes sense, if somebody is completely oblivious of the actual conditions involved around the expansion and invasions.

 

[bomberfox]

Uh, you do know that they never intended on actually invading France, right? Or Italy? Or most of Northern Europe?

I am in no way an apologist for Der Paper Hangar and his band of moronic lunatics. But Germany no more wanted to take control of all of Europe than Japan wanted to fight the US. But once the war got going, they had no real choice. If the Ultimatum had never been made about Poland and the Phony War started, odds are Germany would never have moved West, and would have been perfectly content to just pause, then work it's way East. The Soviets were always their goal, not Western Europe. He only went that direction because the UK and France declared war against him. The same with the Northern nations. That is why they were given a lot of autonomy when compared to the actual nations the Germans wanted to conquer. Most of the NAZI Party (like the Marxists) believed that they were the "wave of the future", and that all eventually would join them voluntarily. And it was not an unreasonable thought, as can be seen in the German-American Bund, and the BUF. Each of those countries invaded was largely turned over to local Fascist groups that often existed a decade before the war even started.

BUF started as the "British Fascist Party", way back in 1923. Both the Nazis and Fascists thought they were the wave of the future.

You are making these silly statements, apparently being completely unaware of what all was going on at the time.

And yes, in the same way Japan never wanted to fight the US. But they had no choice, because the US had a major presence right in between the Home Islands, and the resource regions that they really wanted. And Japan was more then aware that unlike the war in Europe, it would have to be the aggressor and declare war against the UK. Which unlike where the UK declared war against Germany, this would likely start to cause even the Isolationist movement in the US to start demanding their involvement. More of the rapid build-up that was already underway in the Philippines, even more overt aid to the Chinese. And more time to build up their forces in the Pacific.

So it was attack early and fast, or risk the US coming in when they were overextended and trying to absorb their new conquests with a heavily fortified position in the Philippines.

What you said makes sense, if somebody is completely oblivious of the actual conditions involved around the expansion and invasions.

They actually did intend to invade poland as well as most other european nations that didnt bend to Hitler’s whim which is why the SS staged attacks against German soldiers to excuse invading Poland. Its why appeasement by Chamberlain didnt work. The allied european powers were forced into war to stop a belligerent Germany that kept making threat after threat against other European countries. Are you seriously not aware of the constant threats Hitler made even towards more neutral countries?
France given autonomy by the nazis? Boy is that a laugh! The nazis actually made strict rules not only about their schedules but also how the conquered French could keep time.

Hitler didnt want to go to war with Italy because they were allies.

Hitler’s war and antisemitism were inseparable. Hell even their war with the soviets the called a war against “judeo bolshevism”. Pretending like Hitler’s war could be in any way separated from his desire to exterminate the jewish people is incredibly ahistorical.

This is again completely ahistorical. British antifascists defeated the BUF and gave Oswald Mosely and his thugs the bloody nose they deserved. What does this have to do with the nazi party making their war a war against world jewry?

 

[Oozlefinch]

I find your apologism for Franco to be as bad as Prager U cheering on Robert E Lee for defeating John Brown.

So you agree with a band of armed people killing others and taking over government property? Who had been responsible for many deaths even before that during the era of "Bleeding Kansas"?

Funny, but the more you say, the more it simply sounds like you approve of the killing of anybody that does not agree with you. And I can see no reasonable person thinking that John Brown was right. Even a lot of the abolition movement was revolted by his actions, and you are saying he was right?

 

[bomberfox]

So you agree with a band of armed people killing others and taking over government property? Who had been responsible for many deaths even before that during the era of "Bleeding Kansas"?

Funny, but the more you say, the more it simply sounds like you approve of the killing of anybody that does not agree with you. And I can see no reasonable person thinking that John Brown was right. Even a lot of the abolition movement was revolted by his actions, and you are saying he was right?

Thats your reading into it. The planter class all deserved to be hung and i believe it is the right of the oppressed to overthrow those who are oppressing them. Those who are not actively engaging in oppression dont.

 

[Oozlefinch]

They actually did intend to invade poland as well as most other european nations that didnt bend to Hitler’s whim which is why the SS staged attacks against German soldiers to excuse invading Poland.

Hitler’s war and antisemitism were inseparable. Hell even their war with the soviets the called a war against “judeo bolshevism”.

And also the Slavs, can't forget them.

But look at a map, they were all to the East of Germany, not West. He had no real interest in Western Europe, nor Northern Europe (he had control of a lot of that already even before the war broke out). Sweden deaired neutrality and stayed out of the war, and Finland was an ally. Remember, his main goal was eliminating Marxism, as well as lebensraum. And that could not be achieved by going into the more heavily populated regions of France and Belgium, Holland, and the rest of Western Europe. But it was found in spades in Eastern Europe.

Plus he had allies to the East. Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, and parts of Yugoslavia (specifically the Croats). Spain was Neutral, the hopes was that France and the UK would just roll over and accept Polish occupation, as they had all the previous German expansions.

I am in no way an "apologist" for the lunatic. I simply am aware of what his plans and goals are, and they were all to the east. So why you keep bouncing back and forth, I have no idea. I know how and why they attacked Poland, but Germany is not the one that declared war against the UK and France. And it is not exactly like he was alone, the Soviets happily jumped in also and gobbled up half the country also. But funny how that is almost never mentioned.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The planter class all deserved to be hung and i believe it is the right of the oppressed to overthrow those who are oppressing them.

OK, so you are a genocidal maniac, that believes entire classes of people should be hung.

Pol Pot would be very proud of you.

 

[soylentgreen]

No one is that ignorant.

Really! Have you met some of the anti china crowd on this thread?