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Should the unborn have a right to self-determination?[W:1064]

Bodi

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Oppps... typo .. (F) for Fetus (Z) Zygote (E) embryo :)

I figured... all good. But the point remains. A (Z) is not a ZEF. It is PART of a ZEF.
 

thinkagain

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I figured... all good. But the point remains. A (Z) is not a ZEF. It is PART of a ZEF.

Correct. The poster was claiming that the ZEF was not a zygote. My point was that the Z in ZEF stood for Zygote such that the term at least includes Zygote.
 

Bodi

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Correct. The poster was claiming that the ZEF was not a zygote. My point was that the Z in ZEF stood for Zygote such that the term at least includes Zygote.

Seems pretty obvious and not worth discussing really in the context of the broader scope that note was pointing out, that a ZEF is not a Zygote... but ok. You are correct. The Z stands for Zygote.
 

HangLow

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As I said, I am sure that these events do happen but Etopic pregnancies happen 1 out of 100 times but babies are dying near 99.999 percent. I missed what the numbers are for preeclamsia was. I do have feelings for anybody who suffers. 1 out of 100. No wonder I never saw it, or heard of it until I came here and heard it from you guys.
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weaver2

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As I said, I am sure that these events do happen but Etopic pregnancies happen 1 out of 100 times but babies are dying near 99.999 percent. I missed what the numbers are for preeclamsia was. I do have feelings for anybody who suffers. 1 out of 100. No wonder I never saw it, or heard of it until I came here and heard it from you guys.
1out of 100 is actually frequent. So you never heard of a fairly common pregnancy emergency and yet you think you are quite knowledgable enough to decide exactly what women should and shouldn't be allowed todo about an unwanted pregnancy.

Only someone monstrously insensitive would have the gall to tell women that they do not know, whose situation they can never know, what they should and should not be allowed to do about their private reproductive lives.
 

ChrisIsLeft

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I didn't make this thread into a poll, because any well-thought-out answer would be much more nuanced than a yes or no.

Nor did I say, "do the unborn have a right to [x]?" because legality has nothing to do with this issue. It's strictly a philosophical question.

So what is your position and why?
The unborn covers a formed baby and a clump of cells. So the answer is nuanced.
 

weaver2

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Should the unborn have a right to self-determination? It's strictly a philosophical question. So what is your position and why?
Exactly how would an embryo or a fetus arrive at a position where it has self-determination? And, how would self-determination exhibit itself in a being with no usable brain, no self awareness?

Let's say , for laughs, a fetus has self determination what could it do, where would it go? Out for lunch with the girls? Gather in the bar with the boys. Stand on the street corner preaching against Biden? It's contained in a very confined space with no exit until birth, attached to the mother's body via an umbilical cord and placenta and dependent on her for circulation, respiration, nutrition, elimination.
 

choiceone

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As almost everyone mentioned before, an unborn potential person is not likely to understand the concept of self-determination. However, just for discussion's sake, I would contend that it's safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of the unborn - if they were able to voice an opinion - would choose to live rather than to have their lives terminated. The question is whether and when such a choice should ever outweigh the mother's decision.

If that doesn't help, feel free to ask me any follow up questions.
Would you be selfish enough to demand that a woman continue to be pregnant with you when she doesn't want to, despite your increasing her risk of death and/or serious injury and imposing significant hardship on her body?

That degree of selfishness is so great that you would be a detriment to this world. The woman should decide because she's actually capable of weighing different pros and cons for her, her family, her society, and more.
 

choiceone

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That's a bit vague. Are you claiming that all pregnancies do permanent harm to women's bodies?
The pregnancies that do no permanent harm to women's bodies usually are those for which very unhealthy women who decide to continue them then make efforts to improve their health behavior. In that sense, pregnancy can cause better health. But that is quite rare.

Even when pregnancy does bit appear to harm a woman, it usually screws up various things.

It often screws up a woman's metabolism, making it harder to maintain a healthy BMI.

It tears the skin of her vagina or requires a Caesarian surgery, both of which heal slowly and often not perfectly enough.

Because of pregnancy, women often get varicose veins, which are not just unsightly - they are a health liability.

Pregnancy makes many women suffer serious hair loss and loosening of teeth. It is also likely to make a woman more liable to osteoporosis in her life, etc.

There is one thing that is positive - giving birth makes it less likely that a woman will develop breast cancer. However, many women have a very low chance because breast cancer and cancer generally do not run in their families.

But the truth is that many women have been postponing having kids until the last possible moment precisely because they know about all the health detriments.
 
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