Should the tipped employee exemption to minimum wage be repealed?

[EMNofSeattle]

This is an issue I have changed my mind on in recent times, but to summarize the current situation and why I changed my mind let’s start with US Federal law, Federal Law specifically the Fair Labor Standards Act (or maybe fair standards of labor act? I always forget the order of the words) allows an establishment which permits employees to collect gratuities to pay a lower amount then the federal minimum wage, I think 2.13 an hour, if the employee makes enough in tips to cover the difference between that amount and minimum wage. If the employee does not make at least minimum wage then the employer must make up the difference.

in some states like mine the law makes no such exemption, the employer must pay the minimum wage regardless of tips or not.

I think the Federal FLSA should be amended to prohibit this exemption, and failing that the states that do not currently mandate minimum wage should mandate it.

why?

first off, the majority of tipped workers are women, and while they are entitled to at least minimum wage, women are measurably more agreeable and less likely to demand their full rights. Anyone who spends a little time reading Facebook posts about this topic finds many waitresses talk about being afraid for theif employment if they ask for the difference.

secondly, it should not be the customer’s responsibility to pay for employees. Yes some libertarian goober is thinking right now “lol you dumb commie we all pay for a businesses employees through the price, haven’t you ever read <insert obscure libertarian/neoliberal economist here”> that may be true, but it’s irrelevant, I should just be able to pay the cost of the meal so the server can get the minimum wage and a tip can be on top of that. I shouldn’t have to guess whether my server or her kid will eat today if I tip 25 versus 15 percent today.

thirdly, there is no right for a restaurant owner to make profit stiffing employees.

fourth, the very fact the law mandates that employers should make up the difference between tips and the minimum wage is a recognition this system is bogus to start with. If we’re going to acknowledge that the servers shouldn’t have to make a seperate demand for the wages they are owed.

fifth, it is an anti-family policy, America needs more families and keeping sectors of the economy in poverty does not forward this goal.

sixth, it is not fair to industries that actually have to follow the minimum wage law.

Finally for the right, it is literally cost free policy that will grow the base. No one except a narrow set of special interests wants this exemption, there will be zero electoral kickback for eliminating this exemption. The lack of a strong constituency that actually wants this means that it should be a no brainer.

 

[bluesmoke]

I think every worker in America has a right to a living wage determined by COL for the area they live in, regardless of whether they get tips or not, which tips are personal gesture and should not be reported as income or deducted by whomever gives the tip as an expense. If LW + tips is better than what college grads are getting, let them fight for waiting tables and then the employers that want college grads can raise wages to attract college grads or hire those formerly waiting tables. That'll stimulate the "free" market.

 

[noonereal]

This is an issue I have changed my mind on in recent times, but to summarize the current situation and why I changed my mind let’s start with US Federal law, Federal Law specifically the Fair Labor Standards Act (or maybe fair standards of labor act? I always forget the order of the words) allows an establishment which permits employees to collect gratuities to pay a lower amount then the federal minimum wage, I think 2.13 an hour, if the employee makes enough in tips to cover the difference between that amount and minimum wage. If the employee does not make at least minimum wage then the employer must make up the difference.

in some states like mine the law makes no such exemption, the employer must pay the minimum wage regardless of tips or not.

I think the Federal FLSA should be amended to prohibit this exemption, and failing that the states that do not currently mandate minimum wage should mandate it.

why?

first off, the majority of tipped workers are women, and while they are entitled to at least minimum wage, women are measurably more agreeable and less likely to demand their full rights. Anyone who spends a little time reading Facebook posts about this topic finds many waitresses talk about being afraid for theif employment if they ask for the difference.

secondly, it should not be the customer’s responsibility to pay for employees. Yes some libertarian goober is thinking right now “lol you dumb commie we all pay for a businesses employees through the price, haven’t you ever read <insert obscure libertarian/neoliberal economist here”> that may be true, but it’s irrelevant, I should just be able to pay the cost of the meal so the server can get the minimum wage and a tip can be on top of that. I shouldn’t have to guess whether my server or her kid will eat today if I tip 25 versus 15 percent today.

thirdly, there is no right for a restaurant owner to make profit stiffing employees.

fourth, the very fact the law mandates that employers should make up the difference between tips and the minimum wage is a recognition this system is bogus to start with. If we’re going to acknowledge that the servers shouldn’t have to make a seperate demand for the wages they are owed.

fifth, it is an anti-family policy, America needs more families and keeping sectors of the economy in poverty does not forward this goal.

sixth, it is not fair to industries that actually have to follow the minimum wage law.

Finally for the right, it is literally cost free policy that will grow the base. No one except a narrow set of special interests wants this exemption, there will be zero electoral kickback for eliminating this exemption. The lack of a strong constituency that actually wants this means that it should be a no brainer.

OMG, what a horrific post.

Why not just say that your family has many food servers in it and you want them to get a raise rather than concoct such nonsensical bullet points?

You want a solution? Let the establishment keep all tips and pay the servers minimum wage.

The servers lose but your silly points become mute.

 

[noonereal]

I think every worker in America has a right to a living wage determined by COL for the area they live in, regardless of whether they get tips or not, which tips are personal gesture and should not be reported as income or deducted by whomever gives the tip as an expense. If LW + tips is better than what college grads are getting, let them fight for waiting tables and then the employers that want college grads can raise wages to attract college grads or hire those formerly waiting tables. That'll stimulate the "free" market.

Good grief. And I thought the OP misguided.

This thread just gets better and better.

God Bless.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

OMG, what a horrific post.

Why not just say that your family has many food servers in it and you want them to get a raise rather than concoct such nonsensical bullet points?

I think only one of my relatives is in the food industry.

You want a solution? Let the establishment keep all tips and pay the servers minimum wage.

not really relevant to what I posted.

[/QUOTE]

moot

 

[noonereal]

not really relevant to what I posted.

It's very relevant.

Wait staffs makes some serious bucks. Enough is enough. They don't need your pennies.
Oh yeah, your idea of wait staff is the Denny's waitress, my idea of wait staff is the maitre d' at The Polo Bar.

 

[Helix]

Should the tipped employee exemption to minimum wage be repealed?

yes. i absolutely support this. my tip should be something extra, not part of their minimum wage. if i wanted to tip the owner, i would.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It's very relevant.

Wait staffs makes some serious bucks. Enough is enough. They don't need your pennies.
Oh yeah, your idea of wait staff is the Denny's waitress, my idea of wait staff is the maitre d' at The Polo Bar.

Depending upon the area and the establishment they can. That is not universal. I was watching a documentary the other day where in some states waitresses have to give half their tips to the bussers and end up making almost no money.

 

[noonereal]

Depending upon the area and the establishment they can. That is not universal. I was watching a documentary the other day where in some states waitresses have to give half their tips to the bussers and end up making almost no money.

I thought this was common, that or collecting all tips and splitting it with the entire staff and kitchen. (not with management)
My buddy, one of the great NYC restaurateurs did just this.

 

[noonereal]

yes. i absolutely support this. my tip should be something extra, not part of their minimum wage. if i wanted to tip the owner, i would.

You'd make it very difficult for new restaurants to be birthed.

This conversation is a bit narrow in scope. It is not just wait staffs who receive below minimum wage.
This is also a common practice in sales.

 

[Helix]

You'd make it very difficult for new restaurants to be birthed.

This conversation is a bit narrow in scope. It is not just wait staffs who receive below minimum wage.
This is also a common practice in sales.

$2.13 an hour base salary in 2020 is just ****ing ridiculous. that was set in 1991.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You'd make it very difficult for new restaurants to be birthed.

This conversation is a bit narrow in scope. It is not just wait staffs who receive below minimum wage.
This is also a common practice in sales.

Sales is fundamentally different than serving at a restaurant. Now I don’t think there would be anything wrong with mandating sales people receive minimum wage. However sales people are able to drum up their own business. If I am a sales person I can aggressively look for people to sell to. A waitress is not typically able to go directly solicit business for their establishment

 

[noonereal]

$2.13 an hour base salary in 2020 is just ****ing ridiculous. that was set in 1991.

It' s of no relevance. They make there money on tips. They are still guaranteed minimum.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It' s of no relevance. They make there money on tips. They are still guaranteed minimum.

Well if that is the case, why have the 2.13 an hour at all? If that is the logic then a waiter or waitress should make zero dollars an hour minimum wage and get all their compensation from tips.

 

[noonereal]

Sales is fundamentally different than serving at a restaurant. Now I don’t think there would be anything wrong with mandating sales people receive minimum wage. However sales people are able to drum up their own business. If I am a sales person I can aggressively look for people to sell to. A waitress is not typically able to go directly solicit business for their establishment

No. A retail sales person is subject to the same constrains as is a waitress.
In fact, one can make a case that a waitress enjoys an advantage as it's common for people to go to a store and not buy but I don't know of people going to a restaurant and not eating.

 

[noonereal]

Well if that is the case, why have the 2.13 an hour at all? If that is the logic then a waiter or waitress should make zero dollars an hour minimum wage and get all their compensation from tips.

I agree, there is no need of a minimum.

Just a guarantee of minimum is ample.

 

[Helix]

It' s of no relevance. They make there money on tips. They are still guaranteed minimum.

that isn't what my tip is intended for. if restaurants can't pay a 21st century minimum wage, then perhaps we can eat more TV dinners. $2.13 an hour is too ridiculous to even debate.

 

[noonereal]

that isn't what my tip is intended for

and, with all respect, just who are you?

I find it of no relevance what YOUR tip is intended for.

That is nothing but arrogance.

Frankly, I think tipping should fall to the weigh side.

Let restaurant owners charge enough to pay a salary.

I know I'd save money like this and then I don't have to hear silliness like this.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

and, with all respect, just who are you?

I find it of no relevance what YOUR tip is intended for.

That is nothing but arrogance.

Frankly, I think tipping should fall to the weigh side.

Let restaurant owners charge enough to pay a salary.

I know I'd save money like this and then I don't have to hear silliness like this.

Wait so what are we arguing about?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

No. A retail sales person is subject to the same constrains as is a waitress.
In fact, one can make a case that a waitress enjoys an advantage as it's common for people to go to a store and not buy but I don't know of people going to a restaurant and not eating.

Yeah but if you’re selling anything of value like a car you only need to sell a few a week. At a commission rate how many eggs Benedict plates does a wait staff need to sell to make an ok living?

and plus while it is true a good waitress can get repeat customers who leave tips. Most customers do not go to a diner to give commissions to a specific waiter/waitress

 

[noonereal]

Wait so what are we arguing about?

Helix has defined what "his" tip is for regardless of social norms or business prerogatives.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I thought this was common, that or collecting all tips and splitting it with the entire staff and kitchen. (not with management)
My buddy, one of the great NYC restaurateurs did just this.

I’m amazed New York allows this because WA, OR, CA, and Montana all mandate restaurants pay minimum wage period. And oddly enough there is no shortage of good food in these states, well at least not until the governors kicked the restaurants in the nuts with non scientific Covid policies. But regardless.

 

[noonereal]

Yeah but if you’re selling anything of value like a car you only need to sell a few a week. At a commission rate how many eggs Benedict plates does a wait staff need to sell to make an ok living?

and plus while it is true a good waitress can get repeat customers who leave tips. Most customers do not go to a diner to give commissions to a specific waiter/waitress

Then let the egg waitress become a car salesman.

The bottom line here should be what the minimum earning is not what the minimum wage.

I would abolish the minimum wage altogether in sales and food service and replace it with a minimum earning requirement of $15 an hour.

 

[Helix]

and, with all respect, just who are you?

a tipping customer. i tip pretty well.

I find it of no relevance what YOUR tip is intended for.

That is nothing but arrogance.

Frankly, I think tipping should fall to the weigh side.

Let restaurant owners charge enough to pay a salary.

I know I'd save money like this and then I don't have to hear silliness like this.

the $2.13 an hour wage from 1991 is silly. if they even tried to tie it to inflation in another twenty years, we'll still get the same arguments of "oh dear, every restaurant in the country except McDonalds will shut down! woe is me!"

bullshit. the tip should be something extra for the waiters / staff, who would be underpaid even at $7.25.

 

[noonereal]

I’m amazed New York allows this because WA, OR, CA, and Montana all mandate restaurants pay minimum wage period. And oddly enough there is no shortage of good food in these states, well at least not until the governors kicked the restaurants in the nuts with non scientific Covid policies. But regardless.

I don't know if New York does allow this or not. I am just saying how my buddy did it. Not necessarily the same thing, I don't know.
Plus, my knowledge of how it handled tips was from the early 90's.

No one ever quite, I know he was very generous. My guess is that the tips were spilt in addition to a wage far above minimum.

He had zero employee turnover.