• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a year?

Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a year?


  • Total voters
    23

The Baron

DP Veteran
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
2,803
Reaction score
798
Location
Somewhere in Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

"This is just proof that if you design a program to help this type of people, more and more middle-upper class people will forego paying for their own insurance and just rely on the government dole that should be reserved for the poorest." - RightinNYC

I am going to politely disagree with you and state that even the poorest do not need to be relying on the government.

Please consider what our poor do have...

"46 percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

80 percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

Only six percent of poor households are overcrowded; two thirds have more than two rooms per person.

The typical poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

Nearly three quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or more cars.

97 percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

78 percent have a VCR or DVD player.

62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

89 percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a more than a third have an automatic dishwasher.

As a group, America’s poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100-percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, super-nourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and ten pounds heavier than the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II."

Robert Rector on Poverty on National Review Online

And if you did only want to limit certain welfare benefits to the "poorest of the poor", politicians would slowly lower the bar on who could be covered until everyone was covered in their attempts to stay in power.

And long before everyone was covered by the new welfare scheme, the funds for this program would grow scarce and limitations would have to be placed upon it.

Now even the "poorest of the poor" won't get the orinigal benefits that was intended just for them.

This is why "government help" should be considered an oxymoron.
 

DeeJayH

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,728
Reaction score
1,688
Location
Scooping Zeus' Poop
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

I smell a 'consider the source' post coming ;)
 

The Baron

DP Veteran
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
2,803
Reaction score
798
Location
Somewhere in Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

If you are referring to the source I posted it comes from the Census Bureau (the federal government).

National Review only reported on it.
 

dixon76710

Banned
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
3,659
Reaction score
337
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed

Marilyn Monroe

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2006
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
304
Location
Tennessee
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

LOL...An anonymous freeper, nicked 'icwhatudo', posted what he found about the Frost's on goggle with no fact checking and the cons (including wingnut pundits) swallowed the bait, hook line and sinker.

Here are the facts that the right-wing distorted in order to attack young Graeme:

1) Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year.

2) His sister Gemma attends another private school to help her with the brain injuries that occurred due to her accident. The school costs $23,000 a year, but the state pays the entire cost.

3) They bought their “lavish house” sixteen years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less than safe.

4) Last year, the Frosts made $45,000 combined. Over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined.

5) The state of Maryland has found them eligible to participate in the CHIP program.
What little I could see from the photo they have a pretty nice kitchen. Nicer than my own. Kitchens add tremendous value to a home.

My question is why do these people have four kids if they make so little? You should only have as many kids as you can afford to support. I know there can be circumstances, but still if you don't have the ability to support you shouldn't be having the kids.

I'd want to know how two kids are getting to go to such expensive schools regardless of the scholarship, and the state is paying the other part, and what's the brain damage?

The "lavish" home isn't in a great neighborhood, but where is this neighborhood? If they only paid $55,000 they either got a really good deal, or a family member sold it to them, something. It's hard to find homes that cheap anywhere.

I think $45,000 a year income would make it tough to support that many people, but are they working under the table possibly? Doing stuff for cash?

Just sounds fishy to me, but I don't really care, either. These health programs like all government programs are going to have a certain amount of fraud. That's how they work. People figure out how to beat the system. Also, people who can't get in often wonder why.

I know this is general, but we are all paying for these programs with our taxes, so I don't really care who gets to partake. A millionaire can partake for all I care. I know one thing, healthcare is getting too expensive, and the costs are going to put most of us in the poorhouse if something isn't done. There has to be an answer because people just can't do it any longer. It's getting where only the rich can afford healthcare, and it can't be that way, it just can't. Something's got to give.
 

dixon76710

Banned
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
3,659
Reaction score
337
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

Do you remember Jennifer? Probably not. First Lady Hillary Clinton, who helped turn Jennifer into a national political prop for health care reform in 1994, must be very grateful that we've all forgotten the poor little girl from Coral Springs. Jennifer's story, which took a shocking but largely unnoticed twist last week, is not merely a case of legislation-by-anecdote run amok.

It's poster child abuse.

Six years ago, Jennifer's mother wrote a widely-publicized letter to the White House. "Do you know what it is like to choose between purchasing groceries for the week to feed your family or buying needed medications for your chronically ill child?" Kathleen Bush asked.

Pale and wan, young Jennifer suffered from unidentified chronic digestive problems and myriad ailments from birth. She had her gall bladder, appendix, and fragments of her intestines removed. Those organs were replaced with a tangled cable of feeding tubes that constricted Jennifer's 43-pound frame. Surgeons threaded a catheter into the girl's heart. After 200 hospital visits and 40 operations, the Bush family had racked up medical bills worth more than $2 million.

Puzzled doctors and nurses scratched their heads over Jennifer's 33,000-page medical file. The media ran maudlin profiles of the family. With TV crews in tow, saintly mother and sickly child headed up to Capitol Hill to campaign for Clinton-sponsored health insurance mandates.

......


Independent specialists conducted extensive tests on Jennifer and found no evidence of digestive disorders. When Jennifer was separated from her mother for treatment at a Cincinnati hospital, the starved child feasted mightily on pizza, hot dogs, and chocolate bars. Meanwhile, authorities discovered that while the Bush family claimed poverty because of Jennifer's health problems, they had splurged on trips to the Bahamas and Disney World, house remodeling, and a new Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

Dr. Eli Newberger, a professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School, concluded that nothing in Jennifer's extensive records indicated "that the child has any underlying illness except the suffering she has had to endure as a result of efforts to portray her as needing urgent care." Jennifer was removed from her family in 1996 and has been healthy ever since....
Last week, Kathleen Bush – Hillary Clinton's once-proud and loud sister in arms -- was sentenced to five years in prison on two counts of aggravated child abuse and one count of fraud. She also pled guilty to a separate count of welfare fraud for misrepresenting $60,000 in assets on Medicaid forms.

Michelle Malkin
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

This is hilarious. You attack one poster for making claims about facts that can be verified by a bit of independent research.

To rebut his claims, you provide a blog article that makes 5 claims and provides absolutely no evidence for where it got them.

Why are you believing what the article at ThinkProgress is saying? What evidence do they have that they're right and the other guy is wrong?
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

LOL...An anonymous freeper, nicked 'icwhatudo', posted what he found about the Frost's on goggle with no fact checking and the cons (including wingnut pundits) swallowed the bait, hook line and sinker.

Here are the facts that the right-wing distorted in order to attack young Graeme:

1) Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year.
Source?

2) His sister Gemma attends another private school to help her with the brain injuries that occurred due to her accident. The school costs $23,000 a year, but the state pays the entire cost.
Source? Also, this has nothing to do with the fact that BEFORE the accident, she was attending a private school that cost $40,000 a year.

3) They bought their “lavish house” sixteen years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less than safe.
Source?

Regardless, don't you find it a bit disturbing that someone living in a 3000+ sqft house worth probably $600,000+ is getting public assistance meant to cover the poorest people in society?

4) Last year, the Frosts made $45,000 combined. Over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined.
Source? As the initial "expose" post pointed out, aside from their house, the guy owns his own company including a building probably worth ~$250,000. He also rents out a portion of the building to another tenant. This guy is not in poverty.

5) The state of Maryland has found them eligible to participate in the CHIP program.
Why wouldn't they? The federal government is the one paying for it.
 

BWG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
4,373
Reaction score
1,602
Location
South Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

dixon76710 said:
An anonymous freeper, no nickname, over on Think Progress
LOL...a 'freeper' is from the Free Republic blog.

No need for a nick, they put their real name on an article.
It was posted by Faiz Shakir.
Over at Think Progress they aren't afraid to have their pics and a bio posted.

Pics and Bios
 

BWG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
4,373
Reaction score
1,602
Location
South Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

RightinNYC said:
Why are you believing what the article at ThinkProgress is saying?
Why do you believe an anonymous poster (like you or I)?
Think Progress doesn't hide behind anonymity.
RightinNYC said:
What evidence do they have that they're right and the other guy is wrong?
Your evidence is...an anonymous 'freeper'.
Didn't say 'their' evidence was incorrect, just that 'they' didn't tell the whole story
RightinNYC said:
Also, this has nothing to do with the fact that BEFORE the accident, she was attending a private school that cost $40,000 a year.
I haven't seen a claim that the daughter was attending a private school before the accident, that costs $40,000 a year, much less proof.
RightinNYC said:
don't you find it a bit disturbing that someone living in a 3000+ sqft house worth probably $600,000+ is getting public assistance meant to cover the poorest people in society?
Probably worth?...You don't know?
If they bought it for $55,000, fixed it up and it is now worth more, seems like they're trying to make their lives better, rather than sitting on their butt saying, gimme, gimme. Isn't that the whole idea with assistance? If they sell their house, where would they live, move to another dump and start all over again. Continue the cycle?? That doesn't sound like progress.
RightinNYC said:
the guy owns his own company including a building probably worth ~$250,000.
Another 'probably worth'?
He's a carpenter, how do you know his company isn't HIM. Lots of people incorporate themselves.
RightinNYC said:
He also rents out a portion of the building to another tenant.
How much does he receive? Enough to support a family of 6?
RightinNYC said:
This guy is not in poverty.
You've seen his W-2s?
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

Why do you believe an anonymous poster (like you or I)?
Think Progress doesn't hide behind anonymity.
They don't cite their sources either. I'm confused as to why you think that makes them more authoritative.

Your evidence is...an anonymous 'freeper'.
Didn't say 'their' evidence was incorrect, just that 'they' didn't tell the whole story
Okay. This doesn't disprove the actual facts which that anonymous person turned up.

I haven't seen a claim that the daughter was attending a private school before the accident, that costs $40,000 a year, much less proof.
Here's a link to the school's webpage that shows tuition to be $20,000 a year ($40,000 for two kids, not one, my mistake):

http://www.parkschool.net/admission/index.cfm?type=list&objectid=232

Here's a copy of the school newsletter which identifies both children as students:

Budget deficit leads to personnel changes for ’05-’06

These are demonstrable facts. The tidbits in the ThinkProgress article are not.

Probably worth?...You don't know?
If they bought it for $55,000, fixed it up and it is now worth more, seems like they're trying to make their lives better, rather than sitting on their butt saying, gimme, gimme. Isn't that the whole idea with assistance? If they sell their house, where would they live, move to another dump and start all over again. Continue the cycle?? That doesn't sound like progress.
I say "probably worth $600,000" because a house down the street from them that was 1,000 sqft smaller just sold for $485,000. $600,000 is a very conservative estimate.

My point is that people who own 3,000 sqft, $600,000 homes should not be receiving government assistance equal to tens of thousands of dollars.

Another 'probably worth'?
I say "probably worth $250,000" because he bought the building for $160,000 in 1999. With what happened in the RE market since then, $250,000 is a reasonable estimate.

He's a carpenter, how do you know his company isn't HIM. Lots of people incorporate themselves.
Indeed they do. However, most people don't buy 200 thousand dollar buildings for businesses of 1.

How much does he receive? Enough to support a family of 6?
No clue. Don't see where I claimed he did.

You've seen his W-2s?
He claims to make only $45,000. Even if that's true, that's nearly twice the poverty line. Therefore, my statement of "this guy is not in poverty" is quite factual.
 

dixon76710

Banned
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
3,659
Reaction score
337
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

LOL...a 'freeper' is from the Free Republic blog.

No need for a nick, they put their real name on an article.
It was posted by Faiz Shakir.
Over at Think Progress they aren't afraid to have their pics and a bio posted.

Pics and Bios
I would prefer an anonymous freeper that provides links to his sources, over a Faiz Shakir who doesnt even think he needs to reveal his sources.
 

DeeJayH

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,728
Reaction score
1,688
Location
Scooping Zeus' Poop
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

Do you remember Jennifer? Probably not. First Lady Hillary Clinton, who helped turn Jennifer into a national political prop for health care reform in 1994, must be very grateful that we've all forgotten the poor little girl from Coral Springs. Jennifer's story, which took a shocking but largely unnoticed twist last week, is not merely a case of legislation-by-anecdote run amok.

It's poster child abuse.

Six years ago, Jennifer's mother wrote a widely-publicized letter to the White House. "Do you know what it is like to choose between purchasing groceries for the week to feed your family or buying needed medications for your chronically ill child?" Kathleen Bush asked.

Pale and wan, young Jennifer suffered from unidentified chronic digestive problems and myriad ailments from birth. She had her gall bladder, appendix, and fragments of her intestines removed. Those organs were replaced with a tangled cable of feeding tubes that constricted Jennifer's 43-pound frame. Surgeons threaded a catheter into the girl's heart. After 200 hospital visits and 40 operations, the Bush family had racked up medical bills worth more than $2 million.

Puzzled doctors and nurses scratched their heads over Jennifer's 33,000-page medical file. The media ran maudlin profiles of the family. With TV crews in tow, saintly mother and sickly child headed up to Capitol Hill to campaign for Clinton-sponsored health insurance mandates.

......


Independent specialists conducted extensive tests on Jennifer and found no evidence of digestive disorders. When Jennifer was separated from her mother for treatment at a Cincinnati hospital, the starved child feasted mightily on pizza, hot dogs, and chocolate bars. Meanwhile, authorities discovered that while the Bush family claimed poverty because of Jennifer's health problems, they had splurged on trips to the Bahamas and Disney World, house remodeling, and a new Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

Dr. Eli Newberger, a professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School, concluded that nothing in Jennifer's extensive records indicated "that the child has any underlying illness except the suffering she has had to endure as a result of efforts to portray her as needing urgent care." Jennifer was removed from her family in 1996 and has been healthy ever since....
Last week, Kathleen Bush – Hillary Clinton's once-proud and loud sister in arms -- was sentenced to five years in prison on two counts of aggravated child abuse and one count of fraud. She also pled guilty to a separate count of welfare fraud for misrepresenting $60,000 in assets on Medicaid forms.

Michelle Malkin
i am waiting for this to be countered
 

dixon76710

Banned
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
3,659
Reaction score
337
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

I haven't seen a claim that the daughter was attending a private school before the accident, that costs $40,000 a year, much less proof.
The $40,000 is for two kids.

Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bush’s reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD....
His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school prior to the accident meaning the family was able to come up with nearly $40,000 per year for tuition for these 2 grade schoolers.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1907687/posts
The evidence provided

Tuition for 2007-2008 Lower School $19,530
Middle School $19,530
Upper School $21,080
Park School Admission : Cost & Financial Assistance
Members of the Park Community joined together last Saturday and raised over $4000 for Gemma ’16 and Graeme ’13 Frost, who were seriously in-
jured in a car accident on Hillside Avenue in November....
According to Hoitsma, who teaches Gemma, 80 Park stu-dents entered the Fun Run.
http://64.233.169.104/u/ParkSchool?...5.pdf+gemma&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
 

dixon76710

Banned
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
3,659
Reaction score
337
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

2) His sister Gemma attends another private school to help her with the brain injuries that occurred due to her accident. The school costs $23,000 a year, but the state pays the entire cost.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/08/attacking-graeme-frost/
The Free Republic said she attended the Park Private school BEFORE the accident. The fact she attends a different private school now, doesnt change the fact that her and her brother attended the Park school before the accident. And the fact that the government pays for her Health Insurance AND her expensive private school, doesnt really bolster the arguements supporting increased eligibility for Government health insurance.
 

Marilyn Monroe

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2006
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
304
Location
Tennessee
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

This program was developed in 1997 and seems to be part of Social Security. The states set up the guidelines, but they have to match money so it would seem they ought to be careful how many assets the people have before they let them enter. This is a huge problem with government programs, people hide their money. The IRS can filter through this sort of thing and disallow it, but all these pop-up programs may not have the facilities to sort through fraud so it goes unnoticed, or the clerks handling it don't care.

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/LowCostHealthInsFamChild/01_Overview.asp#TopOfPage
 

BWG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
4,373
Reaction score
1,602
Location
South Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Should the tax payer have to pay for ins for a child whose parents make $83K a ye

RightinNYC said:
Here's a link to the school's webpage that shows tuition to be $20,000 a year ($40,000 for two kids, not one, my mistake)
Tuition rates does not equal what the Frost's paid.

From the schools financial assistance program:

"Park enrolls students based on their talents and capabilities. Families who are unable to meet the full cost of tuition may apply for the Financial Assistance Program, which supplements tuition payments. Financial assistance does not need to be repaid.

In 2007, 18% of Park students in grades 1-12 received over $2 million in financial assistance that ranged from $1,000 per year to full tuition. Tuition remission for children of our faculty brings that total to 25% of the student body."
RightinNYC said:
Here's a copy of the school newsletter which identifies both children as students:
You mean the one about the fundraiser?

"Members of the Park Community joined together last Saturday and raised over $4000 for Gemma ’16 and Graeme ’13 Frost, who were seriously injured in a car accident on Hillside Avenue in November."

Sounds like the school felt like they needed financial assistance.

RightinNYC said:
I say "probably worth $600,000" because a house down the street from them that was 1,000 sqft smaller just sold for $485,000. $600,000 is a very conservative estimate.
Maryland Department of Assessments and Taxation assess the Frost's home at $263,140 on 01/01/2006 and $223,986 on 07/01/2007 and you put it at $600,000. Quite a difference, even given that tax assessments are generally lower than market price. Give it another week and it could be a million...LOL.
RightinNYC said:
These are demonstrable facts. The tidbits in the ThinkProgress article are not.
The selling price and date of the Frost's home is right there on anonymous freeper 'icwhatudo''s link to the Maryland Department of Assessments and Taxation
RightinNYC said:
I say "probably worth $250,000" because he bought the building for $160,000 in 1999. With what happened in the RE market since then, $250,000 is a reasonable estimate.
Again the Maryland Department of Assessments and Taxation puts the commercial property, on which the primary structure was built in 1920, hardly a new, modern site at $160,500 in 2005 and again in 2007, yet you put it at $250,000.
'Owning' a property does not correlate to having complete equity. How much does the Frost's own and how much is mortgaged?
RightinNYC said:
Indeed they do. However, most people don't buy 200 thousand dollar buildings for businesses of 1.
If you need more space than a backyard will allow you, you do.
Besides, the selling price was $160,000. Why do you feel the need to constantly embellish, if your facts are correct?
RightinNYC said:
He claims to make only $45,000. Even if that's true, that's nearly twice the poverty line. Therefore, my statement of "this guy is not in poverty" is quite factual.
The S-CHIP program allows some states, on approval, certain percentages above the poverty line.
You are aware that the families pay premiums, depending on income, right?

dixon76710 said:
The Free Republic said she attended the Park Private school BEFORE the accident. The fact she attends a different private school now, doesn't change the fact that her and her brother attended the Park school before the accident.
I've seen evidence that they attended the school, not how the Frost's paid.
dixon76710 said:
And the fact that the government pays for her Health Insurance AND her expensive private school, doesnt really bolster the arguements supporting increased eligibility for Government health insurance.
If public schools can't accommodate an impaired child they must provide an alternative. It's actually cheaper to 'outsource' than to fully fund a facility that may go unused after the child moves on.

$45,000 a year for a family of 6 would come under my idea of children needing assistance for health care, YMMV
 
Top Bottom