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Should the NRA be dissolved if they laundered Russian money for Trump?

iguanaman

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McClatchy in January disclosed that Justice Department Special Counsel Robert Mueller was investigating whether Torshin or others engineered the flow of Russian monies to the NRA; the Senate Intelligence Committee is also looking into the matter, sources familiar with the probe have said. The sources spoke on condition of anonymity because the inquiries, which are part of sweeping, parallel investigations into Russia’s interference with the 2016 U.S. elections, have not been publicly announced.

NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam said, however, that the FBI has not contacted the group.

A photograph taken during a 2015 trip to Russia by leaders of the powerful group showed them meeting with Torshin, Rogozin and Rudov, and a source knowledgeable about the visit confirmed the gathering. The source spoke on condition of anonymity to avoid damaging relationships.

The NRA, Trump’s biggest financial backer, spent more than $30 million to boost his upstart candidacy; that's more than double what it laid out for 2012 GOP nominee Mitt Romney, and the NRA money started flowing much earlier in the cycle for Trump.
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/latest-news/article212756749.html

Not only is this illegal but it is anti-American. I believe that if these allegations are proven, the NRA should be dissolved and banned from making political contributions.

The contacts have emerged amid a deepening Justice Department investigation into whether Russian banker and lifetime NRA member Alexander Torshin illegally channeled money through the gun rights group to add financial firepower to Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential bid. Other influential Russians who met with NRA representatives during the campaign include Dmitry Rogozin, who until last month served as a deputy prime minister overseeing Russia’s defense industry, and Sergei Rudov, head of one of Russia’s largest philanthropies, the St. Basil the Great Charitable Foundation. The foundation was launched by an ultra-nationalist ally of Russian President Putin…

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a21273701/russia-nra-trump-brexit-farage/
 

Chillfolks

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Should those guilty be prosecuted and sent to jail if guilty? Yes
Should the government force the NRA to dissolve or some other authoritarian action? No
 

LowDown

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Mycroft

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If someone did something wrong charge them in court. Wild allegations and charges don't mean anything.
The NRA is not going anywhere anytime soon.


Overall, NRA-backed candidates won 106 races and lost 33. (2018)

The NRA spent over $1 million opposing Joseph Donnelly, a Democrat seeking a Senate seat in Indiana, according to data collected by The Trace NRA Campaign Spending Tracker. Donnelly lost to Republican Mike Braun. In Missouri, the group spent about $700,000 in support of Republican Josh Hawley’s Senate bid, who took the seat from incumbent Democrat Claire McCaskill. (The NRA also spent about $667,000 opposing her re-election campaign.)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-07/nra-has-mixed-results-in-midterm-elections
 

Rexedgar

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A pound of flesh isn't enough for the Trump haters.

Certain pounds of flesh are worth more than others..........:2wave:
 

Felis Leo

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https://www.mcclatchydc.com/latest-news/article212756749.html

Not only is this illegal but it is anti-American. I believe that if these allegations are proven, the NRA should be dissolved and banned from making political contributions.



https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a21273701/russia-nra-trump-brexit-farage/

Let us put aside for a moment that you despise the NRA, iguanaman: By what authority could the United States government dissolve a private organization of freely-associating individuals?

And if this is appropriate, can the United States government simply do this to any organization when one of its members uses financial accounts of the organization to commit a crime? For example, if member of a labor union did something similar, funneling money used for an illicit purpose through the union's accounts, should the Federal government be able not merely to arrest and charge the individual committing the crime, but completely dissolve that union outright?
 

iguanaman

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Let us put aside for a moment that you despise the NRA, iguanaman: By what authority could the United States government dissolve a private organization of freely-associating individuals?

And if this is appropriate, can the United States government simply do this to any organization when one of its members uses financial accounts of the organization to commit a crime? For example, if member of a labor union did something similar, funneling money used for an illicit purpose through the union's accounts, should the Federal government be able not merely to arrest and charge the individual committing the crime, but completely dissolve that union outright?

By declaring it a criminal organization? How can we separate the criminals from the organization? How can they be allowed to continue to make political contributions if convicted of this subversion?
 

Felis Leo

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By declaring it a criminal organization? How can we separate the criminals from the organization? How can they be allowed to continue to make political contributions if convicted of this subversion?

And what is your limiting principle when it comes to the definition of a criminal organization? Any member of the organization committing a crime using finances of that organization? I would argue that a member of an organization who commits an illegal act misusing that organization's financial accounts does not make any given organization a criminal organization. A criminal organization is one that has been formed for the express purpose of engaging in criminal activity. Again, using the example of a labor union: a Labor Union that is formed for establishing collective bargaining on behalf of workers; if one of its organizers uses funds or accounts of the organization for illicit purposes, that . Likewise, the NRA is a lobbying group for guns rights activists. If one its members or its leadership commits a crime, even using that organization's accounts, I do not see how that transform the hitherto legitimate organization into a criminal organization.
 

WillyPete

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https://www.mcclatchydc.com/latest-news/article212756749.html

Not only is this illegal but it is anti-American. I believe that if these allegations are proven, the NRA should be dissolved and banned from making political contributions.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a21273701/russia-nra-trump-brexit-farage/

Charge the ones you can prove it of, and throw the book at them. If you can link it to Trump, impeach him and make the GOP vote to keep his sleezy @ss in power.

That said, dissolving and banning entire organizations over the actions of a few would be far more un-American than money laundering or shady international dealings.

Those are both long-standing American traditions, after all.

There is no legal or practical way to do this that doesn't create a worse problem.
 

apdst

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OrphanSlug

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https://www.mcclatchydc.com/latest-news/article212756749.html

Not only is this illegal but it is anti-American. I believe that if these allegations are proven, the NRA should be dissolved and banned from making political contributions.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a21273701/russia-nra-trump-brexit-farage/

As others point out, it takes an actual charge filed and a guilty determination before something can happen. And even it will be impossible to find everyone involved with the NRA guilty, meaning they will probably not be dissolved. All of those supporters of the NRA are not going to go away either, nor will they stop supporting politicians that see things their way even if all those NRA members form up under some other organization.

Best of luck with your dream...
 

iguanaman

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And what is your limiting principle when it comes to the definition of a criminal organization? Any member of the organization committing a crime using finances of that organization? I would argue that a member of an organization who commits an illegal act misusing that organization's financial accounts does not make any given organization a criminal organization. A criminal organization is one that has been formed for the express purpose of engaging in criminal activity. Again, using the example of a labor union: a Labor Union that is formed for establishing collective bargaining on behalf of workers; if one of its organizers uses funds or accounts of the organization for illicit purposes, that . Likewise, the NRA is a lobbying group for guns rights activists. If one its members or its leadership commits a crime, even using that organization's accounts, I do not see how that transform the hitherto legitimate organization into a criminal organization.

Using a non-profit organization to collude with Russia to influence our elections is not really the same as a union boss embezzling funds. It is really sedition or as the DOJ like to say it is collusion to defraud the U.S.
 

apdst

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Using a non-profit organization to collude with Russia to influence our elections is not really the same as a union boss embezzling funds. It is really sedition or as the DOJ like to say it is collusion to defraud the U.S.

It's funny watching you people invent crimes. :lamo
 

iguanaman

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Charge the ones you can prove it of, and throw the book at them. If you can link it to Trump, impeach him and make the GOP vote to keep his sleezy @ss in power.

That said, dissolving and banning entire organizations over the actions of a few would be far more un-American than money laundering or shady international dealings.

Those are both long-standing American traditions, after all.

There is no legal or practical way to do this that doesn't create a worse problem.

We ban charities who have been proven dishonest and the world has not come to an end.

New York’s attorney general filed suit against President Trump and his three eldest children Thursday, alleging “persistently illegal conduct” at the president’s personal charity and saying that Trump had repeatedly misused the nonprofit organization to pay off his businesses’ creditors, to decorate one of his golf clubs and to stage a multimillion-dollar giveaway at 2016 campaign events.

In the suit, Attorney General Barbara Underwood asked a state judge to dissolve the Donald J. Trump Foundation. She asked that its remaining $1 million in assets be distributed to other charities and that Trump be forced to pay at least $2.8 million in restitution and penalties.

Underwood also asked that Trump be banned from leading any other New York nonprofit organization for 10 years — seeking to apply a penalty usually reserved for the operators of small-time charity frauds to the president of the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-york-files-suit-against-president-trump-alleging-his-charity-engaged-in-illegal-conduct/2018/06/14/c3cbf71e-6fc9-11e8-bd50-b80389a4e569_story.html?utm_term=.517ba88811ad
 

iguanaman

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It's funny watching you people invent crimes. :lamo

It is illegal for foreign Govts. to contribute to any candidate in a Presidential election. It'as funny to see clueless people like you posting like they actually know something.


Campaigns are prohibited from accepting contributions from certain types of organizations and individuals. These prohibited sources are:

Corporations, including nonprofit corporations (although funds from a corporate separate segregated fund are permissible)
Labor organizations (although funds from a separate segregated fund are permissible)
Federal government contractors
Foreign nationals
Contributions in the name of another

https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and-committees/candidate-taking-receipts/who-can-and-cant-contribute/
 

apdst

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HumblePi

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Let us put aside for a moment that you despise the NRA, iguanaman: By what authority could the United States government dissolve a private organization of freely-associating individuals?

And if this is appropriate, can the United States government simply do this to any organization when one of its members uses financial accounts of the organization to commit a crime? For example, if member of a labor union did something similar, funneling money used for an illicit purpose through the union's accounts, should the Federal government be able not merely to arrest and charge the individual committing the crime, but completely dissolve that union outright?

I believe that collusion with an foreign adversary in order to affect the outcome of a U.S. presidential election is a pretty damned good reason to prohibit the NRA from entering the Capital to lobby Congressmen. The NRA took $30 million of Russian oligarch money to buy Congressmen to help elect Trump. After the Parkland massacre, multiple companies have pulled their support of the NRA and that literally is the main reason they're in deep financial trouble now. The mass murders of innocent people aren't helping their popularity, 'bad press' and all that. Here's a list of VALID mainstream websites that clearly state that the NRA is in deep financial straits.

https://nypost.com/2018/08/03/nra-says-its-broke-and-on-the-verge-of-collapse/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-other-states-are-targeting-nra-s-bottom-line-n898981

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-nra-is-losing

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/nra-financial-trouble-706371/

NRA spokesperson and Super-Nazi Dana Loesch who has referred to journalists as "the rat bastards of the earth" may soon be looking for other jobs to supplement her NRA salary. She's doing commercials now and has been doing spots for a product called 'SuperBeets' which is a beet juice supplement. It's certainly bizarre to me anyway that a woman that defends anyone's rights to own a dozen assault rifles that murdered 158 people at a concert in Las Vegas should be promoting a beet supplement for 'healthy nutrition'.

 

WillyPete

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We ban charities who have been proven dishonest and the world has not come to an end.

Well, that seem to still be running it's course. Trump apparently tried to dissolve it voluntarily in 2016 (to avoid the investigation, no doubt) and they stopped him. A civil suit making demands is hardly the final word, but let's assume it did happen, and that org is gone forever.

Do you think it made a significant impact on Trump cash flow, or impacted the ability of these shady donors from getting money to the people they wanted to influence?

If you banned the NRA, they would simply reform as one or more other groups, and little changes.
 

iguanaman

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It isn't sedition, though. :lamo

At worst, it's a citation and a fine.

OK not sedition then. When a citizen give aid and comfort to foreign enemy it is TREASON.

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 807; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(2)(J), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381
 

iguanaman

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Well, that seem to still be running it's course. Trump apparently tried to dissolve it voluntarily in 2016 (to avoid the investigation, no doubt) and they stopped him. A civil suit making demands is hardly the final word, but let's assume it did happen, and that org is gone forever.

Do you think it made a significant impact on Trump cash flow, or impacted the ability of these shady donors from getting money to the people they wanted to influence?

If you banned the NRA, they would simply reform as one or more other groups, and little changes.

The point is they can ban him from running any charity for 10 years. We could do the same with the NRA.
 

apdst

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WillyPete

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The point is they can ban him from running any charity for 10 years. We could do the same with the NRA.

And when they start 10 new organizations, and channel the same money through them, you can investigate them, and "ban" them, and then you'll have 110 years worth of bans and still no impact, as they'll just do it again.

Do you want to win a pointless victory, or do you want things to change on the ground?
 
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