Should the KKK Confederate mural on Stone Mountain, Georgia be destroyed?

[jamesrage]

I picked other. Since it is on state land then the citizens of Georgia should vote whether or not to keep it or destroy it.

 

[Tangmo]

America in some ways feels like it is a place run by the Taliban.

American racist wasp Taliban lost in the civil war won by the Union of the States. Neither side was perfect but the traitors were permitted to live to fight another day. You're still losing btw.

Yup. For the American Taliban that dont know how to destroy parts of your history you dont like, here is a short video of how your intellectual`brethren handle such problems.

USA has statues and memorials to heroes and statues to traitors. The Stone Mountain eyesore is one of the latter. So we take our pick and your side chooses the traitors. We see the same kind of choosing up of sides in contemporary times. The Confederacy and the Taliban are the cultural and intellectual brethren of the Putin-Trump Fanboys. They're all hell bent to destroy the Constitution and to defend the indefensible. Nazi Germany failed trying it too hence the exploded swastika which generated the butt hurt Bamyan video.

 

[Felis Leo]

For those that oppose replacing the statues of traitors to the United States with actual heroes, do you think Germany should've kept all of its Hitler statues up? Or was there maybe a time they realized that's not who they should continue glorifying until the end of time?

That is a good question, RabidAlpaca. I personally do not think statues and monuments are necessarily glorifying. What was erected in vainglory can become over time a mark of shameful cruelty, exploitation and brutality which should never be forgotten. When people engage in iconoclasm to try to and erase historical markers, I find that it is an attempt to erase the reminders of the sins of the past. And I have no interest in letting people off the hook. I think people should always be reminded of the wickedness of their past.

I have argued on similar forums that these monuments remain as a mark of shame. And to your question about Nazi monuments, I think they should have remained in place to remind the world what Germany did until the end of time, and left like the Mark of Cain upon the brow of Germany. And I think the monuments to Stalin and Lenin should have remained in place in Russia for the same purposes.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

America in some ways feels like it is a place run by the Taliban.

But not in this case. You're welcome!

 

[Tangmo]

When people start trying to erase history, it's time to start erasing them. Erasing history doesn't change it, it only puts a political party in charge of it.

Ditching statues and memorials to traitors does not erase history. It precludes the public worship of the traitors and their descendants who defend the indefensible, i.e., treason intertwined with their shameless and unrestrained racism.

 

[CaughtInThe]

It depends...

Do we want to continue to honor men who fought against the USA so they could continue to buy and sell children?

 

[joko104]

Yes, but not out of anger, rather because we simply no longer value these men and what they stood for. They were traitors to America and fought to enslave human beings. We should resculpt the faces into faces of people that are worth admiring and remembering.

For those that oppose replacing the statues of traitors to the United States with actual heroes, do you think Germany should've kept all of its Hitler statues up? Or was there maybe a time they realized that's not who they should continue glorifying until the end of time?

So you claim that all structures and statutes honoring the Pharaohs in Egypt and any honoring any Roman Emperor should be destroyed? The slavery they used and how slaves were treated was even worse than in the USA. Why should they be glorified until the end of time?

 

[Fletch]

USA has statues and memorials to heroes and statues to traitors. The Stone Mountain eyesore is one of the latter. So we take our pick and your side chooses the traitors. We see the same kind of choosing up of sides in contemporary times. The Confederacy and the Taliban are the cultural and intellectual brethren of the Putin-Trump Fanboys. They're all hell bent to destroy the Constitution and to defend the indefensible. Nazi Germany failed trying it too hence the exploded swastika which generated the butt hurt Bamyan video.

Thats both wrong and dumb. Nice job.

 

[Felis Leo]

Ditching statues and memorials to traitors does not erase history. It precludes the public worship of the traitors and their descendants who defend the indefensible, i.e., treason intertwined with their shameless and unrestrained racism.

Does it truly preclude the public worship of evil, Tangmo? Do you believe that the monument itself incites to admiration and worship in the same manner that Homer said that the blade itself incites to deeds of violence? That these monuments to men you find evil are literal fonts of evil and they infect society like the One Ring from J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings?

 

[ChezC3]

In 1915 a mural of Jefferson Davis - President of the Confederacy, Robert E Lee - Confederate General, and Stonewall Jackson - also a Confederate general - was carved into Stone Mountain, Georgia. This is considered the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan. Cross burning rituals were performed there from 1915 thru 1958, when the State of Georgia purchased/took the property. The site has been owned by the State of Georgia ever since. In 1965 it was opened as a state park and is the #1 tourist destination in the state.

Should the State Of Georgia continue to operate a state park that markets a memorial to the president and generals of the Confederacy, which fought a war to preserve slavery and establish a permanent slave nation?


[FONT="]STONE MOUNTAIN, Ga. (FOX 5 Atlanta) - Stone Mountain Park will be closed Saturday due to security concerns.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#353E47][FONT="]The Stone Mountain Memorial Association put out a statement late Friday announcing the closure. The release reads:[/FONT]
[FONT="][I]“The Stone Mountain Park Police Department will be closing the park to the public tomorrow, Saturday, February 2, 2019. No vehicles or pedestrian traffic will be allowed into the park. Only hotel and campground guests will be allowed entry and exit through the park gate.”[/I][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#353E47][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]A white supremacist group had petitioned to rally at the park this weekend due to the significance of the site and its proximity to the Super Bowl this weekend. Those permit requests were denied, but rumors lingered there would be a gathering despite those denials.
Police: Stone Mountain Park to close Saturday - Story | WAGA

[/FONT]

Oh dear, lord....Pulaski TN, is considered the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan, because, that's, you know, where it was founded. :roll:

They most certainly should preserve it.


and take a lesson, it's best to leave them long-haired, country boys alone...

 

[VanceMack]

So just to make sure I'm following the retarded logic you two are spewing, any country that has ever removed any kind of statue, mural or carving is basically the Taliban.

Germans removing Hitler statues after the war? Taliban
Cambodia removing statues of Polpot? Taliban
Eastern European countries removing Stalin and Lenin statues from public squares? Taliban

There is no requirement to keep every statue and monument ever made in place until the end of time. All statues will be eventually replaced with new ones, and when it comes to traitors to the US that fought to enslave human beings, sooner is better than later.

Your comparisons to the Taliban are lazy and offensive to veterans that have actually faced the Taliban and seen their horrors first hand.

To emphasize YOUR moronic position...

You advocate for the same actions as these ****ing twats.

 

[Sabre]

Why not? George Orwell's 1984 is just occurring a little bit late.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

That was exactly my point.
Yes, only liberals are allowed to compare people to Nazis. Funny how you dont call out liberals who compare people on the right to Nazis and fascists, but someone on the right does it and you are right there to jump on it.
I dont 'sympathize with southern traitors' thats just you being dishonest. But then again, you are a liberal. It sort of comes with the territory.

Yes, you're demanding we continue to glorify southern traitors, I assume because you ideologically sympathize with them. Show me where it's required for a nation to keep all statues and monuments until the end of time. Change happens, we re-evaluate our priorities. Get over it.

So you claim that all structures and statutes honoring the Pharaohs in Egypt and any honoring any Roman Emperor should be destroyed? The slavery they used and how slaves were treated was even worse than in the USA. Why should they be glorified until the end of time?

I'm not Egyptian or Italian, that's up to them. Also, comparing the pyramids to something that was created in 1965 is ridiculous.

That is a good question, RabidAlpaca. I personally do not think statues and monuments are necessarily glorifying. What was erected in vainglory can become over time a mark of shameful cruelty, exploitation and brutality which should never be forgotten. When people engage in iconoclasm to try to and erase historical markers, I find that it is an attempt to erase the reminders of the sins of the past. And I have no interest in letting people off the hook. I think people should always be reminded of the wickedness of their past.

I have argued on similar forums that these monuments remain as a mark of shame. And to your question about Nazi monuments, I think they should have remained in place to remind the world what Germany did until the end of time, and left like the Mark of Cain upon the brow of Germany. And I think the monuments to Stalin and Lenin should have remained in place in Russia for the same purposes.

It's not a historical marker, it was made in 1965, 100 full years after the traitors lost. You're basically saying that if we manage to get a giant Nancy Pelosi statue erected on top of the White House, we should be barred from taking it down, permanently, until the last star in the universe dies out.

And your second paragraph is too stupid to address.

 

[apdst]

In 1915 a mural of Jefferson Davis - President of the Confederacy, Robert E Lee - Confederate General, and Stonewall Jackson - also a Confederate general - was carved into Stone Mountain, Georgia. This is considered the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan. Cross burning rituals were performed there from 1915 thru 1958, when the State of Georgia purchased/took the property. The site has been owned by the State of Georgia ever since. In 1965 it was opened as a state park and is the #1 tourist destination in the state.

Should the State Of Georgia continue to operate a state park that markets a memorial to the president and generals of the Confederacy, which fought a war to preserve slavery and establish a permanent slave nation?


[FONT="]STONE MOUNTAIN, Ga. (FOX 5 Atlanta) - Stone Mountain Park will be closed Saturday due to security concerns.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#353E47][FONT="]The Stone Mountain Memorial Association put out a statement late Friday announcing the closure. The release reads:[/FONT]
[FONT="][I]“The Stone Mountain Park Police Department will be closing the park to the public tomorrow, Saturday, February 2, 2019. No vehicles or pedestrian traffic will be allowed into the park. Only hotel and campground guests will be allowed entry and exit through the park gate.”[/I][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#353E47][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]A white supremacist group had petitioned to rally at the park this weekend due to the significance of the site and its proximity to the Super Bowl this weekend. Those permit requests were denied, but rumors lingered there would be a gathering despite those denials.
Police: Stone Mountain Park to close Saturday - Story | WAGA

[/FONT]

I think y'all oughta just let it go. If you don't like the monument, don't go see it.

 

[apdst]

Oh dear, lord....Pulaski TN, is considered the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan, because, that's, you know, where it was founded. :roll:

They most certainly should preserve it.


and take a lesson, it's best to leave them long-haired, country boys alone...

They don't care about historical facts.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

To emphasize YOUR moronic position...

You advocate for the same actions as these ****ing twats.

If liberals managed to erect gigantic Nancy Pelosi statues in every major city in America, you'd argue that the statues should never be touched for thousands of years? Removing a bad piece of art does not make everyone the Taliban. You hyperbolize because you know how stupid it is to pretend something some assholes put up in 1965 should be eternal.

 

[Felis Leo]

And your second paragraph is too stupid to address.

Is it your position that erasing physical markers of an evil past helps to erase the possibility of an evil future, RabidAlpaca?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Is it your position that erasing physical markers of an evil past helps to erase the possibility of an evil future, RabidAlpaca?

No, it means I don't want to have a Hitler poster hanging up on the wall of my house. Maybe I'd rather replace it with something better. Just because some asshole decorated something someway doesn't mean we should continue to glorify assholes until the end of time.

 

[AlbqOwl]

In 1915 a mural of Jefferson Davis - President of the Confederacy, Robert E Lee - Confederate General, and Stonewall Jackson - also a Confederate general - was carved into Stone Mountain, Georgia. This is considered the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan. Cross burning rituals were performed there from 1915 thru 1958, when the State of Georgia purchased/took the property. The site has been owned by the State of Georgia ever since. In 1965 it was opened as a state park and is the #1 tourist destination in the state.

Should the State Of Georgia continue to operate a state park that markets a memorial to the president and generals of the Confederacy, which fought a war to preserve slavery and establish a permanent slave nation?


[FONT="]STONE MOUNTAIN, Ga. (FOX 5 Atlanta) - Stone Mountain Park will be closed Saturday due to security concerns.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#353E47][FONT="]The Stone Mountain Memorial Association put out a statement late Friday announcing the closure. The release reads:[/FONT]
[FONT="][I]“The Stone Mountain Park Police Department will be closing the park to the public tomorrow, Saturday, February 2, 2019. No vehicles or pedestrian traffic will be allowed into the park. Only hotel and campground guests will be allowed entry and exit through the park gate.”[/I][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#353E47][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]A white supremacist group had petitioned to rally at the park this weekend due to the significance of the site and its proximity to the Super Bowl this weekend. Those permit requests were denied, but rumors lingered there would be a gathering despite those denials.
Police: Stone Mountain Park to close Saturday - Story | WAGA

[/FONT]

Right, wrong, and everything in between those two extremes, we did have a great war and there were men willing and able to lead a Confederate Army in what they fervently believed was a righteous cause. We may not share their core beliefs or what they stood for or their choice to join the Confederacy, but nevertheless that was a great bloody war in which countless Americans were killed, injured, maimed and it forever changed many things in the United States. It is part of our history and we should not just eliminate or bury it as those in fascist and oppressively totalitarian states do.

Abraham Lincoln was a dedicated racist that couldn't be elected dog catcher in our time. But in his time he made it possible to forever end the unjustifiable practice of slavery and he preserved the union. Should there be no memorials or commemoration of Lincoln because there are serious negatives in his persona and/or core beliefs and/or actions?

George Washington owned slaves, which Lincoln did not, but he led the colonies against the British might and wrested this land from British control making the United States of America possible. Should there be no memorials or commemoration of Washington because there are serious negatives in his personal life?

Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, but his determination to create a country in which the people would enjoy maximum liberty and govern themselves free from authoritarian control of monarchs, popes/archbishops, dictators, etc. gave us first the Declaration of Independence that was the beginning of a new nation and then helped forge the Constitution that made the USA the most free, most prosperous, most innovative, most powerful, most benevolent nation the world has ever known. Should there be no memorials or commemoration of Jefferson because of serious negatives in his personal life?

All American history is striped with good and bad, positive and negative, pluses and minuses. And it should all be studied, noted, recognized, and allowed in our American culture now. Stone Mountain should be protected and preserved just as all other Civil War memorabilia should have a place in our historical memory.

All the commemorative memorials and art work should remain in place as teaching opportunities of the good and bad that we once were and sometimes still are.

 

[ChezC3]

They don't care about historical facts.

No, no they don't...

 

[Cramer]

America in some ways feels like it is a place run by the Taliban.

Fortunately, even though they try very hard, the radical "Christians" who do want America to be more like the Taliban (Christian style of course), have not been able to do so.

Sadly, they do seem to have a firm grasp on many Republicans in (and out of) office. Fortunately, that is changing.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Right, wrong, and everything in between those two extremes, we did have a great war and there were men willing and able to lead a Confederate Army in what they fervently believed was a righteous cause. We may not share their core beliefs or what they stood for or their choice to join the Confederacy, but nevertheless that was a great bloody war in which countless Americans were killed, injured, maimed and it forever changed many things in the United States. It is part of our history and we should not just eliminate or bury it as those in fascist and oppressively totalitarian states do.

Abraham Lincoln was a dedicated racist that couldn't be elected dog catcher in our time. But in his time he made it possible to forever end the unjustifiable practice of slavery and he preserved the union. Should there be no memorials or commemoration of Lincoln because there are serious negatives in his persona and/or core beliefs and/or actions?

George Washington owned slaves, which Lincoln did not, but he led the colonies against the British might and wrested this land from British control making the United States of America possible. Should there be no memorials or commemoration of Washington because there are serious negatives in his personal life?

Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, but his determination to create a country in which the people would enjoy maximum liberty and govern themselves free from authoritarian control of monarchs, popes/archbishops, dictators, etc. gave us first the Declaration of Independence that was the beginning of a new nation and then helped forge the Constitution that made the USA the most free, most prosperous, most innovative, most powerful, most benevolent nation the world has ever known. Should there be no memorials or commemoration of Jefferson because of serious negatives in his personal life?

All American history is striped with good and bad, positive and negative, pluses and minuses. And it should all be studied, noted, recognized, and allowed in our American culture now. Stone Mountain should be protected and preserved just as all other Civil War memorabilia should have a place in our historical memory.

All the commemorative memorials and art work should remain in place as teaching opportunities of the good and bad that we once were and sometimes still are.

Your support of honoring treason and traitors duly noted.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Oh dear, lord....Pulaski TN, is considered the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan, because, that's, you know, where it was founded. :roll:

They most certainly should preserve it.


and take a lesson, it's best to leave them long-haired, country boys alone...

No, it's actually best to exterminate the Klan like the human filth they are.

 

[Cramer]

No.

It should stand as a monument to the Democrat Party history.

I think you mean racist conservatives.

(also, it is the Democratic party.....)

 

[Felis Leo]

No, it means I don't want to have a Hitler poster hanging up on the wall of my house. Maybe I'd rather replace it with something better. Just because some asshole decorated something someway doesn't mean we should continue to glorify assholes until the end of time.

And that is perfectly acceptable, if it is indeed your house and your property.

But I do not think it is an appropriate action for states (by which I mean national governments) to erase the more unsavory (or outright horrific) parts history of their country's history on state property to try engage in some kind of post-hoc moral cleansing. To take the German example, German de-Nazification was a sad joke. The vast, vast, vast majority of willing participants in the Nazi German military and bureaucracy who engaged in aggressive war and genocide were never punished and simply reentered society and some taking the very same positions they had held when they had a swastika arm band. But most people who have only been given a shallow education on the issue thought that it was somehow a grand success. Simply stripping the swastika arm bands and blowing up some Nazi monuments did not erase the wicked actions that so many hundreds of thousands of Germans took, and so many millions more watched on with with a satisfied complicity.

Those same murderers and assistants of murderers helped remake the German state after the War. For all intents and purposes, they may as well have kept the Hitler and Swastika monuments up, because they were mostly the same damn people who looked upon them with adulation. I would have wished them to look on them with shame.