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Should states pay for religious education?

There is nothing wrong with education about religion, because enlightened people who want to function in a pluralistic society are better off when they understand others even when they do not share their beliefs or convictions. The problem is that most places that teach religion do so at the exclusion of other faiths than their own, because after all how can there be other gods than my own and my faith is better than everyone else's...
 
aociswundumho said:
I think H.L. Mencken explained democracy as good as anyone: Democracy is the worship of jackals by jackasses.
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Yes, Mencken delighted in being superior, cynical and disagreeable. Democracy what we've got and it's better to make it work, because we aren't going to get something different, than it is to trash it and make sure it doesn't work.

Somebody wiser than Mencken said, "It doesn't take any talent to tear down something. Any asshole can do it. What's hard is making stuff work in spite of the assholes."
 
aociswundumho said:
Labor unions work just like any other cartel.
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Teacher's unions don't, as you implied run the school. They do not fund the schools, make school policy, hire staff and administrators, determine the curriculum, approve the texts, or establish behavior codes for students. All that is done by the school board the people elected. If the schools are not doing well it is the fault of those who run the schools.
 
weaver2 said:
Teacher's unions don't, as you implied run the school. They do not fund the schools, make school policy, hire staff and administrators, determine the curriculum, approve the texts, or establish behavior codes for students. All that is done by the school board the people elected. If the schools are not doing well it is the fault of those who run the schools.
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Where the hell did I imply that?
 
aociswundumho said:
Where the hell did I imply that?
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OK what were you implying when you posted teachers' unions links below links to schools with dismal achievement scores?
aociswundumho said:
Worse than this:
detroit.cbslocal.com

Report: Nearly Half Of Detroiters Can't Read

According to a new report, 47 percent of Detroiters are "functionally illiterate."
detroit.cbslocal.com detroit.cbslocal.com
Here is their union:

Detroit Federation of Teachers | AFT Stateweb

dft231.mi.aft.org dft231.mi.aft.org
or this:
www.k12dive.com

Several Baltimore schools report 0 students proficient in math, reading

Despite relatively high per-pupil spending, the city's schools continue to struggle.
www.k12dive.com www.k12dive.com
Here is their union:

Baltimore Teachers Union

www.baltimoreteachers.org www.baltimoreteachers.org
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And if you weren't implying that teachers' unions are destroying achievement in all American schools what were you implying by noting only failing schools. We have many many excellent schools in this country. They also have teachers' unions.
 
weaver2 said:
OK what were you implying when you posted teachers' unions links below links to schools with dismal achievement scores?
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Teacher's unions make education worse for the same reasons labor cartels in general make every product or service worse. It's because they are not subject to market forces.

weaver2 said:
And if you weren't implying that teachers' unions are destroying achievement in all American schools what were you implying by noting only failing schools. We have many many excellent schools in this country. They also have teachers' unions.
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Excellent compared to what? If these schools are so "excellent" why is it necessary to force people to pay for them?
 
aociswundumho said:
Teacher's unions make education worse for the same reasons labor cartels in general make every product or service worse. It's because they are not subject to market forces.
Excellent compared to what? If these schools are so "excellent" why is it necessary to force people to pay for them?
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I don't know exactly what job your skill set is good for but if anyone ever needed a sour, misinformed, anti-democratic, pessimist to tell all their employees they were worthless and incompetent you'd get the job hands down.
 
weaver2 said:
I don't know exactly what job your skill set is good for but if anyone ever needed a sour, misinformed, anti-democratic, pessimist to tell all their employees they were worthless and incompetent you'd get the job hands down.
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It's a big surprise that you have no response other than a lame string of personal insults.
 
weaver2 said:
I'm sorry but I just don't have any responses to misanthropy like yours.
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No, you don't have any response to specific claims like these:

aociswundumho said:
Teacher's unions make education worse for the same reasons labor cartels in general make every product or service worse. It's because they are not subject to market forces.
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Nor do you have answers to questions like this:

aociswundumho said:
If these schools are so "excellent" why is it necessary to force people to pay for them?
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There is nothing misanthropic about criticizing government-run schools or labor cartels. In fact, considering the damage both of them do to society, one could argue that not criticizing them is misanthropic.
 
aociswundumho said:
No, you don't have any response to specific claims like these:



Nor do you have answers to questions like this:



There is nothing misanthropic about criticizing government-run schools or labor cartels. In fact, considering the damage both of them do to society, one could argue that not criticizing them is misanthropic.
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There is very little point in discussing anything with surly and bitter people that consider all the institutions that civilization has created as being dishonest, and corrupt. Scathing condemnation is almost impossible to counter. One can always find fault.
 
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States rights activists and fundamentalist religious activists would like to see public funding......but it won't work..... because millions of people don't want their taxes going to support religions they do not follow anymore than those who don't want their taxes going to fund public abortion......one would think that the fundies would see this obvious paradox......but then again, no.....a truly free society must be completely free from government support of any religion
 
Somerville said:
The SCOTUS has accepted a case from the 1st Circuit Court of Appeals. Owing to small populations in some rural areas and on the islands along the coast of Maine, the state's education department pays tuition costs for students to attend not only public but also private schools - as long as the private school does not require all students to study the school's religion. The 1st Circuit agreed with the state and an appeal was filed.

Carson v. Makin


more on the case

Maine Voucher Case to Test Supreme Court’s Shift Toward Religious Freedom​


How does a state government refusing to pay for a religious education impede a person's religious freedom?
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The state pays for religion being taught in all public schools it's just people don't want to call it religion. Public schools are for indoctrination.
 
mrjurrs said:
They are not denying the right. They are denying the funds. Why should they be required to duplicate their efforts (there is already a public education option)? What about parents that want their kids to attend gender-segregated schools?
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In this case, you have a state which is already tendering funds for private schooling per remote locations.
A case could be made under the equal protection Claus that denying funds to that student violates the students equal protection.
 
CLAX1911 said:
The state pays for religion being taught in all public schools it's just people don't want to call it religion. Public schools are for indoctrination.
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Could you inform the ignorant? WHAT religion is being taught in all public schools?

Seems to me that "public school indoctrination" isn't very effective as we have a wide range of opinions and beliefs in the American citizenry at this time.
 
Somerville said:
Could you inform the ignorant? WHAT religion is being taught in all public schools?
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It doesn't have a name.
Somerville said:
Seems to me that "public school indoctrination" isn't very effective as we have a wide range of opinions and beliefs in the American citizenry at this time.
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Not sure about that one. Do you believe carrots are good for your eyes or that recycling makes a difference?
 
Somerville said:
Not unexpected that you wouldn't be able to answer my questions.
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I did. It doesn't have a name. You just didn't like the answer.

It's the religion of public school. I can point out it's beliefs.

Again people believe all sorts of propaganda they were indoctrinated with in school.
 
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Somerville said:
The SCOTUS has accepted a case from the 1st Circuit Court of Appeals. Owing to small populations in some rural areas and on the islands along the coast of Maine, the state's education department pays tuition costs for students to attend not only public but also private schools - as long as the private school does not require all students to study the school's religion. The 1st Circuit agreed with the state and an appeal was filed.

Carson v. Makin


more on the case

Maine Voucher Case to Test Supreme Court’s Shift Toward Religious Freedom​


How does a state government refusing to pay for a religious education impede a person's religious freedom?
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Religion and education in the same sentence. Wrong wrong wrong
 
Yet again...the right does not think it through.

You all understand that if the SC allows taxpayer funding to religious schools....it means that non-Christians religions can take as much of the pie as anyone else.

Congratulations Trumpists, your taxes are going to pay for Islamic-based private schools. Your taxes will now pay for the education of people you hate.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I did. It doesn't have a name. You just didn't like the answer.

It's the religion of public school. I can point out it's beliefs.

Again people believe all sorts of propaganda they were indoctrinated with in school.
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Nope. You did not provide an answer. I am sure that you can "point out" what you believe public schools are teaching. Sadly, your and others' beliefs seem to have little attachment to reality.

Funny thing is, I graduated from a religious high school where my parents paid the fees required, though it was not in the USA. Having lived in several countries with friends in those nations that I stay in touch with, I think I have a better means of comparing public school education than those who have only lived in one place their entire lives. Never mind the 7 years in universities.
 
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