Should Public Schooling Go Online?

[nota bene]

More like made a college degree (in anything) become the new certification to help ensure that employees are at least trainable, since a HS diploma no longer does so. I’ve encountered HS ‘graduates’ who can’t read a tape measure.

I've encountered college seniors who can't comprehend an op/ed in a newspaper. Not kidding. I think it was Newsweek back in the late '90's or early aughts that discussed a study indicating that a majority of college seniors couldn't read a bus schedule. The challenge for profs is to teach the students who are actually there. Never mind that your course is intended for graduating seniors and/or grad students but is populated with students whose grasp of, say, history, doesn't even approach the knowledge of their grandparents or great-grandparents who only finished 8th grade. What do you do?

I do think that a 4-year degree, any 4-year degree, is a "certification" for employment (and the reason why history and English majors are able to find employment in the energy industry and then work their way up).

Over the years, I've watched the devaluing of a college education, which wasn't intended to be a trade school but, rather, training in how to think critically and to creatively solve problems. And in my significant experience, a 4-year degree is a colossal waste of time for many students. I am a HUGE fan of the Associate of Applied Science degree and training in systems admin, radiology technology, law enforcement, EMS, and etc.

 

[Josie]

[emphasis added by bubba]

my wife taught high school art
she was amazed to see how many kids were unable to read/use a ruler
she taught her classes how to understand a ruler. high school students!

she even had one student, a junior, who could not read
she had him tested
he was bright, but experienced undiagnosed dyslexia
good, well-behaved kid, got advanced every school year because he caused no problems. could not do the work because he could not read. teachers assumed this smart kid was 'slow'
he was frustrated as hell
once he got help to learn to overcome his reading disability, he thrived

That should’ve been caught back in elementary school.

 

[justabubba]

Oh, good grief.

Lots of social promotion in the elementary schools too --- especially this past year. We had parents who chose remote learning and then literally next-to-nothing all year. Their children were moved to the next grade despite not doing most of the work from the previous year. Now they are 2 grade levels or more behind, but they'll just keep being moved on.

and then we have people who insist we should evaluate the teachers based on how 'well' their students perform
yea, the student could not perform at grade level for the past few years so why not expect the teacher instructing at a higher level be able to overcome that lack of acquired knowlde, skills, and abilities [/s]

 

[nota bene]

Oh, good grief.

Lots of social promotion in the elementary schools too --- especially this past year. We had parents who chose remote learning and then literally next-to-nothing all year. Their children were moved to the next grade despite not doing most of the work from the previous year. Now they are 2 grade levels or more behind, but they'll just keep being moved on.

Precisely.

I've posted about this before, but I have a friend with a Master's in Mathematics who decided that she wanted to teach and was promptly hired by the local high school. She lasted only a year. She was allowed to assign as the lowest grade a "50" to those students who turned in no work at all.

Now some of those students never cared to go on in school, but many did. And found themselves placed in developmental math and English courses. These cost tuition money but were not for credit, and this was when mommies and daddies suddenly began swarming administrative offices, especially when their children flunked those classes and couldn't move on to for-credit courses.

I will stifle myself now because I'm about to go on a rant about helicopter parents and the outrage of mommies and daddies thinking that professors are like their kids' high school and middle-school teachers. They aren't; they're under FERPA constraints.

 

[Slyfox696]

Oh, good grief.

Lots of social promotion in the elementary schools too --- especially this past year. We had parents who chose remote learning and then did literally next-to-nothing all year. Their children were moved to the next grade despite not doing most of the work from the previous year. Now they are 2 grade levels or more behind, but they'll just keep being moved on.

This is a problem...but so is the alternative of holding students back. There's no good answer in the way we current structure K-12 education.

 

[Slyfox696]

I will stifle myself now because I'm about to go on a rant about helicopter parents and the outrage of mommies and daddies thinking that professors are like their kids' high school and middle-school teachers. They aren't; they're under FERPA constraints.

I'm confused at this...who are you saying are not under FERPA constraints?

 

[ttwtt78640]

I've encountered college seniors who can't comprehend an op/ed in a newspaper. Not kidding. I think it was Newsweek back in the late '90's or early aughts that discussed a study indicating that a majority of college seniors couldn't read a bus schedule. The challenge for profs is to teach the students who are actually there. Never mind that your course is intended for graduating seniors and/or grad students but is populated with students whose grasp of, say, history, doesn't even approach the knowledge of their grandparents or great-grandparents who only finished 8th grade. What do you do?

I do think that a 4-year degree, any 4-year degree, is a "certification" for employment (and the reason why history and English majors are able to find employment in the energy industry and then work their way up).

Over the years, I've watched the devaluing of a college education, which wasn't intended to be a trade school but, rather, training in how to think critically and to creatively solve problems. And in my significant experience, a 4-year degree is a colossal waste of time for many students. I am a HUGE fan of the Associate of Applied Science degree and training in systems admin, radiology technology, law enforcement, EMS, and etc.

There seems to be a great deal of truth to the

‘Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.’​

among our ‘certified’ public school K-12 (unionized) teachers and/or school administrators.

I’m not saying that there are not quite a few good teachers, but the tendency to blame the quality of the students for the ‘need’ to accept social promotion is 100% BS. We should never be handing out HS diplomas to folks who can’t master 8th grade material just because they have ‘participated in’ (attended?) higher level classes.

 

[Josie]

There seems to be a great deal of truth to the

‘Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.’​

among our ‘certified’ public school K-12 (unionized) teachers and/or school administrators.

I’m not saying that there are not quite a few good teachers, but the tendency to blame the quality of the students for the ‘need’ to accept social promotion is 100% BS. We should never be handing out HS diplomas to folks who can’t master 8th grade material just because they have ‘participated in’ (attended?) higher level classes.

It’s the administrators who make the decisions to promote to the next grade, not the teachers. Admins need to be well-informed of what is going on in each classroom so they can see if a teacher is fudging the grades of students just to make it look like they passed. Admins need to stop telling teachers they can’t give kids zeros for getting 0% correct.

 

[BirdinHand]

American public schools are failing. Period. And many completely failed at "virtual" education as has been proven during Covid shut downs.

I firmly stand in the "vouchers" camp - enable parents to pick which form of education works best for their child, and allow the funding to follow the student.

The funding will eventually wind up with the best schools and the others will close their doors.

 

[Josie]

American public schools are failing. Period. And many completely failed at "virtual" education as has been proven during Covid shut downs.

I firmly stand in the "vouchers" camp - enable parents to pick which form of education works best for their child, and allow the funding to follow the student.

The funding will eventually wind up with the best schools and the others will close their doors.

Virtual education failed in my district because many parents didn’t have the basic computer skills to get their child online with their teacher. Or they just didn’t care.

 

[Fishking]

Education online is not the same, or equal to, education in the classroom.

 

[BirdinHand]

Virtual education failed in my district because many parents didn’t have the basic computer skills to get their child online with their teacher. Or they just didn’t care.

I watched a half-hearted attempt at "virtual" from March - June 2020. It was poorly planned and executed. I decided to withdraw my son for 2020-2021 because they had a "hybrid" plan which was equally as ridiculous. We went with homeschool and private tutor (and a private speech therapist). I allowed him to return this year to the public but will be sending him to a private school next year. I'm lucky in that we can afford to.

 

[Fishking]

American public schools are failing. Period. And many completely failed at "virtual" education as has been proven during Covid shut downs.

I firmly stand in the "vouchers" camp - enable parents to pick which form of education works best for their child, and allow the funding to follow the student.

The funding will eventually wind up with the best schools and the others will close their doors.

All we have to do is change school from child daycare and indoctrination camps to actual institutes of education. If a student chronically misbehaves, kick them out. Have standards and if a student doesn't pass them, make them repeat the grade. Stop passing sub-par performance. If they put as much effort into teaching math, reading, ect. as they did into diversity and social justice bullshit we wouldn't be in this situation.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Virtual education failed in my district because many parents didn’t have the basic computer skills to get their child online with their teacher. Or they just didn’t care.

How many teachers are trained and certified to become ‘virtual instructors’? Who, if anyone, was responsible for creating and implementing the ‘virtual instruction’ program used in your district? If that ‘virtual’ system depended on having ‘qualified‘ parents then who was tasked with getting those parents ‘up to speed’?

 

[BirdinHand]

All we have to do is change school from child daycare and indoctrination camps to actual institutes of education. If a student chronically misbehaves, kick them out. Have standards and if a student doesn't pass them, make them repeat the grade. Stop passing sub-par performance. If they put as much effort into teaching math, reading, ect. as they did into diversity and social justice bullshit we wouldn't be in this situation.

I agree. But I don't know if we can turn back that tide...or if the teacher unions, etc. would even WANT to turn back that tide.

My solution is one that would enable parents without the financial means of moving their child out of public education to have the financial means to do so.

 

[Josie]

How many teachers are trained and certified to become ‘virtual instructors’?

We all were.

Who, if anyone, was responsible for creating and implementing the ‘virtual instruction’ program used in your district?

Admin.

If that ‘virtual’ system depended on having ‘qualified‘ parents then who was tasked with getting those parents ‘up to speed’?

They got families set up with internet, all the kids had chrome books but if the parents or grandparents didn’t know how to use it, they’d have to call the school to set up a meeting with the teacher to help them navigate. It was a complete and total mess. Parents worked all day and then had to come home and get their child caught up with the schoolwork. Grandparents had not one clue how to even connect to WIFI let alone join a zoom meeting. It’s giving me a headache just thinking about it.

 

[ttwtt78640]

We all were.


Admin.

They got families set up with internet, all the kids had chrome books but if the parents or grandparents didn’t know how to use it, they’d have to call the school to set up a meeting with the teacher to help them navigate. It was a complete and total mess. Parents worked all day and then had to come home and get their child caught up with the schoolwork. Grandparents had not one clue how to even connect to WIFI let alone join a zoom meeting. It’s giving me a headache just thinking about it.

That (bolded above) is my point. Asserting that your district’s administration staff were able to train and certify (all?) teachers in ‘virtual instruction’ is laughable.

 

[Josie]

That (bolded above) is my point. Asserting that your district’s administration staff were able to train and certify (all?) teachers in ‘virtual instruction’ is laughable.

I don’t think so. It’s not difficult to learn how to create and lead a zoom meeting. And we were already using apps like ClassDojo. Of course there were a few of the older teachers who needed extra help, but each grade level worked together well to get their lessons out. It would’ve worked out just fine if we lived in a place where most parents were educated, had the time and knew or were willing to learn basic computer skills.

 

[BirdinHand]

I don’t think so. It’s not difficult to learn how to create and lead a zoom meeting. And we were already using apps like ClassDojo. Of course there were a few of the older teachers who needed extra help, but each grade level worked together well to get their lessons out. It would’ve worked out just fine if we lived in a place where most parents were educated, had the time and knew or were willing to learn basic computer skills.

Zoom is not "virtual education". Zoom is a half-attempt at placing a classroom online. They are not the same.

 

[Josie]

Zoom is not "virtual education". Zoom is a half-attempt at placing a classroom online. They are not the same.

Zoom is what we needed to learn to be able to take what we’ve been doing for years and make it virtual. We already know how to teach. We had to learn how to get our teaching to each kid in their home —zoom.

 

[BirdinHand]

Zoom is what we needed to learn to be able to take what we’ve been doing for years and make it virtual. We already know how to teach. We had to learn how to get our teaching to each kid in their home —zoom.

But that's not "virtual" education. That's attempting to shift in class education onto a virtual platform in a short period of time.

There are ACTUAL virtual education programs on line that are much more comprehensive than Zoom.

And that's the point. The public school system failed at providing ACTUAL virtual education. They went to "zoom" and attempted to simply broadcast the "tradition" in person learning model "online" which was a failure for many students.

Online academies, etc. do much more than "zoom". They have a platform that is successful and has been for years. Parents should have the ability to access those platforms, not these half-hearted zoom measures for their children.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I don’t think so. It’s not difficult to learn how to create and lead a zoom meeting. And we were already using apps like ClassDojo. Of course there were a few of the older teachers who needed extra help, but each grade level worked together well to get their lessons out. It would’ve worked out just fine if we lived in a place where most parents were educated, had the time and knew or were willing to learn basic computer skills.

Yep, but basing any plan on that (small? bolded above) assumption should have been a non-starter. A zoom meeting with 25+ people is not likely to work well even if all 25+ participants had been ‘fully trained’ by the administration staff.

 

[psikeyhackr]

For many of them --- love, nurture, friendship, comfort, safety, a feeling of having a family....

Really?

A nun said to me, "You will get into a good high school but you won't do well."

Of course this was a Catholic elementary school where the nuns carried miniature baseball bats.

 

[ttwtt78640]

For many of them --- love, nurture, friendship, comfort, safety, a feeling of having a family....

That’s a rather sad commentary on the ability of (many?) households to raise minor children (with public subsidies) who would likely not be allowed to adopt a pound puppy.

 

[nota bene]

Education online is not the same, or equal to, education in the classroom.

That depends entirely on the student. I can't speak to lower education, but in higher education, for an institute to be and to remain accredited, it must meet the governing bodies' standards, and those accrediting agencies scrutinize online courses. When I developed the online version of my course in 1998, the directive was that it had to mirror the chalk-and-talk one, and it did. In fact, it was better in some regards.

Again, referring only to higher education, online education works for some but not so well for others. For the mature learner, who is generally employed full-time or otherwise gainfully busy, it can be a godsend.