Should police be allowed to lie in investigations?

[specklebang]

I'm of course sticking my neck out here and iuf my head goes missing, at least I'll know why.

I just can't imagine this circumstance. Anybody who falsely confesses is either nuts or guilty of something worse. I read a lot of fiction and I can suspend disbelief but the police basically have one chance to interrogate you and thats right after they arrest you. Only in the movies do they visit you in prison. At that time, you know perfectly well that you are not connected to this case. So, how gullible do you have to be to buy complete and utter bull**** by the cops? I'd be more amused than frightened if you told me you had a witness to a crime I didn't commit.

Yes, we are a police state and we have given the power of life and death to people who can take advantage of this. But what benefit does this have to the police to completely arrest a person falsely and evoke a confession that can and will be disputed later?

I think many innocent people who are looking at a 10 year sentence if found guilty, plus god knows how many tens or hundreds of thousands in legal fees versus 3 years in a plea deal would seriously think about it.

Cops lie in investigations. It's called good police work. Should they be allowed to? Absolutely not. The government wields far too much police power as it is. The average person, innocent or not, is essentially defenseless against the power of the state.

 

[Gaius46]

I'm of course sticking my neck out here and iuf my head goes missing, at least I'll know why.

I just can't imagine this circumstance. Anybody who falsely confesses is either nuts or guilty of something worse. I read a lot of fiction and I can suspend disbelief but the police basically have one chance to interrogate you and thats right after they arrest you. Only in the movies do they visit you in prison. At that time, you know perfectly well that you are not connected to this case. So, how gullible do you have to be to buy complete and utter bull**** by the cops? I'd be more amused than frightened if you told me you had a witness to a crime I didn't commit.

Yes, we are a police state and we have given the power of life and death to people who can take advantage of this. But what benefit does this have to the police to completely arrest a person falsely and evoke a confession that can and will be disputed later?

Here are a few interesting articles that I found about innocent people taking plea bargains. Sadly it happens.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/When_the_Innocent_Plead_Guilty.php

http://http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plea/faqs/

http://http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judge-h-lee-sarokin/innocent-people-guilty-pleas_b_1553239.html

http://www.economist.com/node/21525840

 

[specklebang]

2 of the 4 links worked and I did look at them. Possibly I have a different image of the original topic. It seems more like prosecutorial conspiracy at work. I think I was imaging a policeman lying after an arrest to see if they could evoke a confession but I didn't assume the police and prosecutors would inject completely fals testimony into the case.

Well, I always say I come here to learn so maybe I learned something today.

Here are a few interesting articles that I found about innocent people taking plea bargains. Sadly it happens.

The Innocence Project - When the Innocent Plead Guilty

http://http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plea/faqs/

http://http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judge-h-lee-sarokin/innocent-people-guilty-pleas_b_1553239.html

False confessions: Silence is golden | The Economist

 

[Gaius46]

2 of the 4 links worked and I did look at them. Possibly I have a different image of the original topic. It seems more like prosecutorial conspiracy at work. I think I was imaging a policeman lying after an arrest to see if they could evoke a confession but I didn't assume the police and prosecutors would inject completely fals testimony into the case.

Well, I always say I come here to learn so maybe I learned something today.

Sorry, I had typos in those URLs. Here are correct links.


http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/When_the_Innocent_Plead_Guilty.php

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plea/faqs/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judge-h-lee-sarokin/innocent-people-guilty-pleas_b_1553239.html

http://www.economist.com/node/21525840


I was responding to your comment that you couldn't see innocent people taking plea deals (i think it was yours) but in truth the same applies to the police. By use of intimidation and lies it isn't hard to see innocent people admitting to crimes they didn't get commit in hopes of getting a break.

 

[specklebang]

You responded correctly and your point is well made.

No doubt it happens and thats quite tragic. Still, its just hard for me to imagine confessing something of which I am fully innocent.

Sorry, I had typos in those URLs. Here are correct links.


The Innocence Project - When the Innocent Plead Guilty

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

Judge H. Lee Sarokin: Why Do Innocent People Plead Guilty?

False confessions: Silence is golden | The Economist


I was responding to your comment that you couldn't see innocent people taking plea deals (i think it was yours) but in truth the same applies to the police. By use of intimidation and lies it isn't hard to see innocent people admitting to crimes they didn't get commit in hopes of getting a break.

 

[Gaius46]

You responded correctly and your point is well made.

No doubt it happens and thats quite tragic. Still, its just hard for me to imagine confessing something of which I am fully innocent.

Truth be told it's hard for me to imagine too. I like to think that if I'm ever in that position I'd have the stones to stand up to the pressure. But when faced with the reality of a couple of years in jail as opposed to possibly the rest of my life.....I just don't know.

 

[specklebang]

I went into this discussion on the presumption that it was about police lying to you, but short term. Like when they arrest you. Sure, if they can keep hammering on you while you sit in jail for weeks o months and they repeat and even more fully detail the li to the point where you become certain you have no hope - yeah, I get that.

That's why I've always wondered about the validity of the Guantanamo prisoner. After a few years and some water-boarding, I'm sure they'll "confess" to anything.

So, I think I'm OK with an initial lie, but not a conspiracy of lies or a background of mistreatment.

Truth be told it's hard for me to imagine too. I like to think that if I'm ever in that position I'd have the stones to stand up to the pressure. But when faced with the reality of a couple of years in jail as opposed to possibly the rest of my life.....I just don't know.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

No. It's a crime for us to lie to the cops, they should not be allowed to tell an outright lie while questioning someone.

The one exception is that I'm okay with undercover cops being able to lie to maintain their cover.

 

[radcen]

No. It's a crime for us to lie to the cops, they should not be allowed to tell an outright lie while questioning someone.

The one exception is that I'm okay with undercover cops being able to lie to maintain their cover.

I make the same distinction.

 

[RanmaMOJ]

I would like to point out that there is a part of the US Constitution that says that whatever the government is allowed to do a United States CITIZEN (Sorry Illegals) is also allowed to do. So, if its illegal for us as citizens to lie to the cops (they use words like 'pergery [sorry bout the spelling] and 'obstruction of justice') then they shouldn't be able to lie to us as well. I was forced about 5 years ago into a plea deal because I was lied to by the DA and told that I could face natural life in prison (for possession of child porn) when in fact the state of Colorado limits the max time for that crime to 6 years (12 with aggravation) If I had taken it to trial I may have won due to legal issues in the case and even if I had lost I would have only faced 6 years of prison, NOT the lifetime the DA lied and said...

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

I would like to point out that there is a part of the US Constitution that says that whatever the government is allowed to do a United States CITIZEN (Sorry Illegals) is also allowed to do.

I'm not familiar with that clause. Could you cite it for me?

So, if its illegal for us as citizens to lie to the cops (they use words like 'pergery [sorry bout the spelling] and 'obstruction of justice') then they shouldn't be able to lie to us as well. I was forced about 5 years ago into a plea deal because I was lied to by the DA and told that I could face natural life in prison (for possession of child porn) when in fact the state of Colorado limits the max time for that crime to 6 years (12 with aggravation) If I had taken it to trial I may have won due to legal issues in the case and even if I had lost I would have only faced 6 years of prison, NOT the lifetime the DA lied and said...

You were talking to the DA and you didn't have a competent defense attorney on hand? Sorry, but the DA's honesty wasn't the biggest problem in that picture.

 

[RanmaMOJ]

The biggest problem in that picture (other than that I was guilty...) was that I had a public pretender... errr... defender...

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

The biggest problem in that picture (other than that I was guilty...) was that I had a public pretender... errr... defender...

So you did it, and your lawyer was a moron (which has nothing to do with the fact that they're with the public defender's office), but you're mad at the DA? Okay, then.

Whenever you get around to pointing me to that part of the Constitution you mentioned, I'd love to read it.

 

[Rainman05]

Yes, they should be allowed to lie. You have 2 defenses:

1. You know you're innocent.
2. You have a lawyer.
3. You can also take the 5th.