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Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.[W:301]

Jaxler

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So... Why? From what I can tell this should be borderline abuse. I mean, after doing my research I've discovered that circumcision doesn't offer any major boons to a person's health, while also lowering a person's ability to feel physical pleasure during intimacy, putting their child though surgery, as well as pain. That being said it's also disfiguring, and the equivalent of ritualistic disfigurement. People are doing this because they think it looks better, and or religious reasons. If lobbing off your arm was a show of religious devotion would your parents be allowed to do this? I know an arm is more important than foreskin, but regardless it's a part of your body. I'm under the impression that as a human I have a right to my body, and my parents shouldn't be allowed to mutilate it because they think it'll look nice, and GAWD wants it. Your not even giving the person the right to make the choice either. Your forcing it upon them, and they are people. Your doing a permanent change to a human being's body that's not needed and actually has lasting effects on them due to someone else's preferences. Explain to me why a person cannot wait until their older, then let their child make the choice? Why does someone's parents get to force this upon someone and literally rob them of intimate pleasure? Why are we allowing people to disfigure their children at birth?
 
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molten_dragon

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

Yes, I think they should be allowed. It doesn't cause any serious harm, and if it's going to be done, it's best done as a young child.


I don't think that parents should circumcise their children, but I think the law should allow it.
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

No, it shouldn't be allowed. But more importantly, even if allowed, parents shouldn't choose to do that to their sons. I wouldn't cuts bits of my sons' bodies off anymore than I would give them tattoos as children. I don't own my children. If they want to be circumcised they can make that decision for themselves when they are old enough to make that decision.

It is no longer recommended by the medical establishment. What few studies show any advantage at all revolve around people living in third world countries without access to clean running water.
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

As far as waiting until you're an adult to get circumcised, ask anyone that's had their tonsils out in adulthood. It's far more invasive, painful and dangerous than doing it to a child.

Judging by the sanitary habits of today's youth, I can't see them taking the necessary steps to cleanliness.
 

Jaxler

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

As far as waiting until you're an adult to get circumcised, ask anyone that's had their tonsils out in adulthood. It's far more invasive, painful and dangerous than doing it to a child.

Judging by the sanitary habits of today's youth, I can't see them taking the necessary steps to cleanliness.

That being said, there is no major bonus to having it done, and one could argue that the act of circumcision it's self should be condemned as it's mutilation of the body, and the only real reason i've seen is either for cosmetic or religious reasons. as for cosmetic, I'm sure your aware of the moral reason's why permanently altering a child's body due to the personal preferences is wrong, as for religious mutilation of human genitalia I'll have you judge weather or not a kid should be cut up because of a religion that they haven't consciously accepted yet.
 
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Captain Adverse

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

So... Why? From what I can tell this should be borderline abuse. I mean, after doing my research I've discovered that circumcision doesn't offer any major boons to a person's health, while also lowering a person's ability to feel physical pleasure during intimacy, putting their child though surgery, as well as pain. That being said it's also disfiguring, and the equivalent of ritualistic disfigurement. People are doing this because they think it looks better, and or religious reasons. If lobbing off your arm was a show of religious devotion would your parents be allowed to do this? I know an arm is more important than foreskin, but regardless it's a part of your body. I'm under the impression that as a human I have a right to my body, and my parents shouldn't be allowed to mutilate it because they think it'll look nice, and GAWD wants it. Your not even giving the person the right to make the choice either. Your forcing it upon them, and they are people. Your doing a permanent change to a human being's body that's not needed and actually has lasting effects on them due to someone else's preferences. Explain to me why a person cannot wait until their older, then let their child make the choice? Why does someone's parents get to force this upon someone and literally rob them of intimate pleasure? Why are we allowing people to disfigure their children at birth?
I think it should be done, and support parents who wish to have their male baby's circumcised. In the first place, medical groups still insist the benefits of circumcision for male babys far outweigh the risks.

Benefits of infant circumcision outweigh risks, top pediatrics group says - CNN.com

and..

"Circumcision of males represents a "surgical vaccine" against a wide variety of infections, adverse medical conditions and potentially fatal diseases over their lifetime, and also protects their sexual partners." CIRCUMCISION: An Evidence-Based Appraisal

I could list more cites, but they pretty much say the same thing. In the second place, among certain religious traditions, it is an important act signifying commitment to their diety and should not be interfered with.

So if a parent does not want to, fine. But forbidding it? No.
 

CLAX1911

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

I think it is to risky just for cosmetic surgery on a newborn. If you ever read up on it, 190 infants die a year due to complications of circumcision. I was a botched circumcision it caused great risk to my life as a young boy. There were times i had fever and serious infection. Although I find the practice barbaric and it will never occur on any of my children, I can't see making a law against it.
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

No, it should be done by a doctor.
 

Kal'Stang

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

So... Why? From what I can tell this should be borderline abuse. I mean, after doing my research I've discovered that circumcision doesn't offer any major boons to a person's health, while also lowering a person's ability to feel physical pleasure during intimacy, putting their child though surgery, as well as pain. That being said it's also disfiguring, and the equivalent of ritualistic disfigurement. People are doing this because they think it looks better, and or religious reasons. If lobbing off your arm was a show of religious devotion would your parents be allowed to do this? I know an arm is more important than foreskin, but regardless it's a part of your body. I'm under the impression that as a human I have a right to my body, and my parents shouldn't be allowed to mutilate it because they think it'll look nice, and GAWD wants it. Your not even giving the person the right to make the choice either. Your forcing it upon them, and they are people. Your doing a permanent change to a human being's body that's not needed and actually has lasting effects on them due to someone else's preferences. Explain to me why a person cannot wait until their older, then let their child make the choice? Why does someone's parents get to force this upon someone and literally rob them of intimate pleasure? Why are we allowing people to disfigure their children at birth?
What do you feel about piercing girl's ears at 3 months? There is even less benefit to that than circumcision. At least with a circumcision you reduce the risk of infections and diseases. With piercing you actually initially increase the chance of infections until it is healed.
 

Sarcogito

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

What do you feel about piercing girl's ears at 3 months? There is even less benefit to that than circumcision. At least with a circumcision you reduce the risk of infections and diseases. With piercing you actually initially increase the chance of infections until it is healed.
I personally am against piercing young children as well, but at least it isn't permanent. Circumcision is. There are no advantages to circumcising first world children.

On the flip side, what is the boy losing when you circumcise? Tens of thousands of nerve endings. Plus, with the foreskin no longer protecting the glans (head of the penis) the glans develops layer of keratin, drying it out, and making it less sensitive than if it didn't have the layers of keratin on it.

Of course, people can always rationalize that away by saying "well, if they get it done as an infant then they will at least never know what they are missing since they have nothing to compare it to". But that justification rings hollow with me.

I'm circumcised. I don't fault my parents for it. They were going with the medical consensus at the time. But that is no longer the consensus and can't be used as an excuse any longer. My sex life is just fine. I DON'T know what I am missing. But I would have liked to have had the opportunity to know. So I left my boys intact.
 

molten_dragon

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

I'm curious what people think about female circumcision too. Many cultural/religious groups regularly practice female circumcision. So why is that a felony, while male circumcision is legal?

Do you support the legality of one but not the other? If so, why?
 

Rainman05

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

I'm not "cut" and when I will have children, I will not "cut" them either. I don't understand why this practice still exists. I mean, I understand why the jews do it, it's a religious thing, and if they still keep on doing it, that's fine, if religion is the motive. But jews who are not religious, which are a lot of them, have no motive to subject their children to circumcision.

I can also understand why people would do it in parts of Africa where STD's are prevalent, same for parts of Asia where this is still a problem. But I don't get why it exists in the developed world.
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

I can't see any particular reason why it should be illegal. It causes no lasting physical harm in the vast majority of cases, and it actually presents certain health benefits for the children who receive the procedure.

You can't even argue that it is particularly traumatizing, as it is performed at such a young age that the child in question will never be able to remember it.

I, for one, can't say that I've ever missed my foreskin. I wouldn't have even known that I'd had a circumcision in the first place if I hadn't been told as much.

I think a lot of people like to make a big deal out of the procedure simply due to the "ick" factor.

Now, that being said, I do think that female circumcision is a bit more questionable.

More moderate forms of the procedure which are really no more damaging than the average labiaplasty are fine as far as I'm concerned, but removing the entire hood (and the clitoris along with it) is simply barbaric.

It causes legitimate harm to the child, and it serves no practical medical purpose whatsoever.
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

I'm curious what people think about female circumcision too. Many cultural/religious groups regularly practice female circumcision. So why is that a felony, while male circumcision is legal?

Do you support the legality of one but not the other? If so, why?
I'm not a female, and don't know if there are any health benefits other than cosmetic for it. As a male I am quite content being circumsized. I'll leave it up to females to decide whats what with them.
 
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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

No, it should be done by a doctor.
I agree ... I tried doing it but the little bugger kept moving and sprayed me a couple of times to boot (so if you insist on doing it, at least wear goggles) ...
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

I agree ... I tried doing it but the little bugger kept moving and sprayed me a couple of times to boot (so if you insist on doing it, at least wear goggles) ...
The doctor? :mrgreen:


It should be allowed because some religions require it, and it's part of a First Amendment right to practice your religion.

I am cut, my son is not. Mostly that's because he was born in Russia, and I didn't get him until he was 6. I wasn't going to do that to a 6 year old.
 

Henrin

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

Yes, I think they should be allowed. It doesn't cause any serious harm, and if it's going to be done, it's best done as a young child.
Why do you people keep spreading this lie?
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

I could list more cites, but they pretty much say the same thing. In the second place, among certain religious traditions, it is an important act signifying commitment to their diety and should not be interfered with.
You are aware that tradition you speak of got started to stop masturbating and to prohibit sex, right? It really had nothing to do with what you're talking about until much much later.
 

Henrin

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

I think it should be done, and support parents who wish to have their male baby's circumcised. In the first place, medical groups still insist the benefits of circumcision for male babys far outweigh the risks.

Benefits of infant circumcision outweigh risks, top pediatrics group says - CNN.com
Did you seriously just use risk of disease to remove a part of the body? Why do people consider the risk of disease a good reason to remove a part of the body? How does that even begin to make sense? It's one thing if it's your body but this is someone else's body and you're basically they don't have the right to risk disease in their lifetime.
 

Captain Adverse

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

You are aware that tradition you speak of got started to stop masturbating and to prohibit sex, right? It really had nothing to do with what you're talking about until much much later.
Ummm...no I don't think you are correct. Let's look at the Jewish Torah:

"(Genesis 17:10-14) 10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant."

That sounds like God commanded it of Abraham and his descendants to me, as a sign of commitment to the covenant. Now I am not an expert on world religions but I can hazard a guess that most other religions which advocate circumcision do so for religious reasons, not to prevent little tommy from masturbating or having sex.

Did you seriously just use risk of disease to remove a part of the body? Why do people consider the risk of disease a good reason to remove a part of the body? How does that even begin to make sense?
Yes I did. Healthy Tonsils are often removed to prevent tonsilitis, healthy Molars have been removed by dentists to prevent certain oral diseases, surgery removes excess body fat from the morbidly obese for health reasons, and I'm sure some medical practitioner can cite other examples.

It's one thing if it's your body but this is someone else's body and you're basically they don't have the right to risk disease in their lifetime.
Parents often do things in the interest of their children's well-being. Just because you don't agree is no reason for them to stop. You do what you want with your own kids. Nobody's arguing with you about how to raise your children, don't presume to dictate what is best for others.
 

Henrin

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

Ummm...no I don't think you are correct. Let's look at the Jewish Torah:

"(Genesis 17:10-14) 10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant."

That sounds like God commanded it of Abraham and his descendants to me, as a sign of commitment to the covenant. Now I am not an expert on world religions but I can hazard a guess that most other religions which advocate circumcision do so for religious reasons, not to prevent little tommy from masturbating or having sex.
History says something entirely different. They would use circumcision as a punishment for masturbating and a prevention technique to prevent masturbating and sexual activity. That is the real history behind the practice in the Jewish faith.

Yes I did. Healthy Tonsils are often removed to prevent tonsilitis, healthy Molars have been removed by dentists to prevent certain oral diseases, surgery removes excess body fat from the morbidly obese for health reasons, and I'm sure some medical practitioner can cite other examples.
Yes, they remove other healthy body parts. What does that prove?

Parents often do things in the interest of their children's well-being. Just because you don't agree is no reason for them to stop. You do what you want with your own kids. Nobody's arguing with you about how to raise your children, don't presume to dictate what is best for others.
Everyone has a right to keep their healthy bodies intact. That obviously includes newborns, children, and adults.
 

CLAX1911

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

What do you feel about piercing girl's ears at 3 months? There is even less benefit to that than circumcision. At least with a circumcision you reduce the risk of infections and diseases. With piercing you actually initially increase the chance of infections until it is healed.
Cutting skin off of the penis increases risk for infection.

THYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies,*Vol. 4, No. 1, Spring 2010, 78-90LOST BOYS: AN ESTIMATE OF U.S. CIRCUMCISION-RELATED INFANT DEATHS- Dan BollingerAbstract: Baby boys can and do succumb as a result of having their foreskin removed. Circumcision-related mortality rates are not known with certainty; this study estimates the scale of this problem.*This study finds that approximately*117*neonatal circumcision-related deaths (9.01/100,000) occur annually in the United States, about 1.3% of male neonatal deaths from all causes. Because infant circumcision is elective, all of these deaths are avoidable. This study also identifies reasons why accurate data on these deaths are not available, some of the obstacles to preventing these deaths, and some solutions to overcome them.

Linked here

Deaths from Circumcision

How many are botched? How many are failed? most guys don't want to talk about their penis being disfigured.

THE DADE COUNTRY MEDICAL EXAMINER DEPARTMENT, Miami, FloridaName....MANKER,.Demetrius.....June.23,1993....11:00am.........Case No. 93-1711EXTERNAL EXAMINATION:**The body is that of a 25-1/2 inch, 15 pound, very pale appearing Negro male appearing consistent with the stated age of 6 months. ... No anomalies are evident.**When initially viewed, a large amount of congealed blood covers the head of the penis. Removal of this disclosed a circumcision site that appears unremarkable along the dorsal surface of the penis. Ventrally, however, a gaping defect of approximately 12 x 14 millimeters is evident with a large amount of extravasated blood in the subcutaneous tissues extending along the shaft of the penis nearly to the scrotal sac....*CAUSE OF DEATH:ExsanguinationDUE TO:penile Circumcision***[signed]Charles V. Wetli, M.D.Deputy Chief Medical Examiner
 

Captain Adverse

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

History says something entirely different. They would use circumcision as a punishment for masturbating and a prevention technique to prevent masturbating and sexual activity. That is the real history behind the practice in the Jewish faith.
So. YOU. Say. I assume you are Jewish and are speaking with the authority of your faith? I admit I am not, but I am stating what was explained to me by Rabbi's and other Jewish freinds when I asked about it. It is also pretty clear in the text I quoted to you.

Yes, they remove other healthy body parts. What does that prove? Everyone has a right to keep their healthy bodies intact. That obviously includes newborns, children, and adults.
It proves (in answer to your prior statement) that it IS being done and by sane and rational people. As for "rights," adults may chose whatever they wish, newborn babies do what their parents decide. Children? I have no experience with children getting circumcisions but I guess it occurs. I guess I'm on the fence about that until I am better informed.
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

So. YOU. Say. I assume you are Jewish and are speaking with the authority of your faith? I admit I am not, but I am stating what was explained to me by Rabbi's and other Jewish freinds when I asked about it. It is also pretty clear in the text I quoted to you.
No, I'm not jewish. I'm just speaking about the history of the practice. It was common practice where the parents would catch the boy masturbating and as punishment and to avoid it from happening again they would drag the boy out of his room and clip it off.

It proves (in answer to your prior statement) that it IS being done and by sane and rational people. As for "rights," adults may chose whatever they wish, newborn babies do what their parents decide. Children? I have no experience with children getting circumcisions but I guess it occurs. I guess I'm on the fence about that until I am better informed.
Yes, children get it done all the time. Doctors regularly decide to remove the foreskin on a small boy when all that is needed is a tiny cut or some adjustment. If you have a boy it's advisable to understand the situation before going in because doctors will recommend removal for little reason.

As for the rights, well, usually speaking parents can do whatever they want to children, but I find the laws assessment of the situation faulty. Instead of saying everything is allowed besides this list they should base what is allowed on medical necessity. Due to the right of the child to have their body intact.
 

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Re: Should parent's be allowed to Circumcise their children.

No, I'm not jewish. I'm just speaking about the history of the practice. It was common practice where the parents would catch the boy masturbating and as punishment and to avoid it from happening again they would drag the boy out of his room and clip it off.
Who's history? What are you, some sort of holdover from the WWII Germany era? Spreading "history" like "they eat and/or sacrifice babies, desecrate churches, and oh yeah, cut off little boys pee-pee's if they are naughty?" Dude, if you have no other proof than some weird claim of "history," to refute what is clearly stated IN THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS TEXTS FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, you have no leg to stand on. PERIOD!

Yes, children get it done all the time. Doctors regularly decide to remove the foreskin on a small boy when all that is needed is a tiny cut or some adjustment. If you have a boy it's advisable to understand the situation before going in because doctors will recommend removal for little reason.

As for the rights, well, usually speaking parents can do whatever they want to children, but I find the laws assessment of the situation faulty. Instead of saying everything is allowed besides this list they should base what is allowed on medical necessity. Due to the right of the child to have their body intact.
Fine, you are entitled to your own opinion, no ones arguing that. I disagree, I believe doctors recommend it because it's benefits outweigh the ills as indicated in the cites I provided. Many parents agree, and are going to continue to act on their determinations regardless of your personal opinions on the matter.
 
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