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Should NATO Go Into Ukraine?

CaughtInThe said:
don't worry, you won't be the only person in this thread who accidently shows their support for Putin as he slaughters civilians.
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Of course, kapitan
 
Rogue Valley said:
I personally think that with Putin's invasion forces still bogged down by stiff Ukrainian resistence, the Russian military will do what it does best ... kill civilians in massive numbers. The Russians will not distinguish between military and civilian targets. Their artillery and multiple-launch rocket systems are well within range of Kyiv. In a not unexpected development, Belarussian armor columns have also crossed the border in the north. The Russian military will place Kyiv (and other resisting Ukrainian cities) under siege, shelling and bombing them unless/until the Zelenskyy government capitulates. Look for the Russians to destroy power stations, water plants, and especially hospitals and clinics to deny the wounded medical care. Civilian deaths and casualties are about to climb exponentially.

Putin cannot allow himself and the Russian military to appear impotent. I look for Russian bombers, fighter jets, and helicopters to drop/shoot ordanance on cities in massive quantities now. Especially bunker-buster bombs and the horrific fuel-air explosives. I think the carnage may become so terrible that the world begins to demand that the UN and NATO inpose a "no fly zone" over Ukraine. This is where NATO and Russia could militarily collide. How long does the free world sit and watch as genocide is being perpetrated on a modern European nation that did nothing wrong?

Where is the line between conventional war and war-crime annihilation? I fear very dark days lie ahead.
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If Russia does indeed follow this path - then I believe you may be correct.

Thus far, they have not and I pray it does not come to this.
 
I think NATO should build up on the borders to force Russia to have to keep defensive troops ready, which then cannot be committed to Ukraine.

At least as a start.
 
longview said:
Russia was never given a permanent seat on the UN security council, The USSR was, and Ukraine was as much a part of the USSR are Russia.
Perhaps the UN should intervene, and Russia should loose their permanent seat.
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The UN is impotent and basically a symbolic club. They probably couldn't even agree to remove Russia from seat much less do anything regarding this invasion. They do plan nice parties though.
 
BirdinHand said:
The difference is the intention, not the number of dead bodies.

And, at this juncture, involving NATO forces could very well lead to nuclear weapons being launched.

I think the *only* option that NATO/the US/the EU has is to provide support but NOT become directly involved.

It is awful. But, I do not see how any country can become physically involved (ie. send troops/become directly involved) without escalating the situation with the way it stands now.
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OK, but that seems like saying that any nation with nuclear weapons can take over any nation which does not have a mutual defense treaty with the US - for example Taiwan.
 
Juin said:
How is war fought? What was the tally from Iraq and Afghanistan? Were all those tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians dead because the US simply killed them for being "in the goup of" Iraqi civilians?
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Fair enough, what was that number?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
OK, but that seems like saying that any nation with nuclear weapons can take over any nation which does not have a mutual defense treaty with the US - for example Taiwan.
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Yeah…it’s part of the reason why keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of crazy people has been important for the last X decades.

Nuclear weapons change how the world can respond to a nation that has them.

This is pretty basic stuff.
 
BirdinHand said:
Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. There is absolutely zero justification for NATO sending forces into Ukraine.
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What are you talking about, Russia is invading a sovereign and independent country. Ukraine has a fundamental right to exist as it sees fit, to stand by and
watch the slaughter should be troubling for anyone with a conscience.
 
gboisjo said:
What are you talking about, Russia is invading a sovereign and independent country. Ukraine has a fundamental right to exist as it sees fit, to stand by and
watch the slaughter should be troubling for anyone with a conscience.
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No doubt. I completely agree that this is horrific.

But Russia has nuclear weapons and Putin may just use them if NATO gets involved and has basically threatened such.

There is a very careful line to be walked.
 
I do recognize that the "smart guys" with more information than me are weighing the consequences carefully. If Putin gets away with this because he knows we are frightened of the consequences what stops him from pushing further? How much is too much? Believe me I have no answers but watching those poor people fight so hard for democracy and freedom on their own is sad and tragic. When I think of the crap we complain about I am embarrassed and humbled.

Taking Putin out ....literally... would not make me cry in outrage.
 
Artymoon said:
The UN is impotent and basically a symbolic club. They probably couldn't even agree to remove Russia from seat much less do anything regarding this invasion. They do plan nice parties though.
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You mean like the party Saddam Hussein was invited to?
 
BirdinHand said:
Yeah…it’s part of the reason why keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of crazy people has been important for the last X decades.

Nuclear weapons change how the world can respond to a nation that has them.

This is pretty basic stuff.
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That plan has failed - now what?
 
Callen said:
I do recognize that the "smart guys" with more information than me are weighing the consequences carefully. If Putin gets away with this because he knows we are frightened of the consequences what stops him from pushing further? How much is too much? Believe me I have no answers but watching those poor people fight so hard for democracy and freedom on their own is sad and tragic. When I think of the crap we complain about I am embarrassed and humbled.

Maybe taking Putin ....literally... would not make me cry in outrage.
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It is a tragedy and certainly puts our "gripes" into perspective. But at this point, just don't see how NATO gets involved unless things just continue to expand.
 
Callen said:
At first, I was a no but I have changed my mind. I think NATO should go in, drive Russia back and get out. Russia is a serious world threat and Ukraine is unfairly bearing the brunt for all of Europe. It doesn't seem right to me to let this happen to the brave Ukrainian people but is their an appetite to defend them?
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Legally, NATO cannot, but it's clear that for genocide, killing civilians indiscriminately yes, they should break their rules and go in.

genocide
[ˈjenəˌsīd]

NOUN
  1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
    "a campaign of genocide" ·
    [more]
    synonyms:
    racial killing · massacre · wholesale slaughter · mass slaughter · wholesale killing · indiscriminate killing · mass murder · mass homicide · mass destruction · annihilation · extermination · elimination · liquidation · eradication · decimation ·
    [more]
 
longview said:
You mean like the party Saddam Hussein was invited to?
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Don't know the reference but when it comes to World leaders if you have something I want or need, we'll be happy to discuss it over caviar.
 
BirdinHand said:
No doubt. I completely agree that this is horrific.

But Russia has nuclear weapons and Putin may just use them if NATO gets involved and has basically threatened such.

There is a very careful line to be walked.
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Yep, but what is that line worth if it allows Ukraine (or Taiwan?) to be taken by force? If (when?) Iran joins the nuclear nation‘s club then what?
 
Rogue Valley said:
How long does the free world sit and watch as genocide is being perpetrated on a modern European nation that did nothing wrong?
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That's the million dollar question, I'm hoping for a no fly zone ..knock some of those ********ers out of the sky.

images.jpg
 
Artymoon said:
Don't know the reference but when it comes to World leaders if you have something I want or need, we'll be happy to discuss it over caviar.
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United Nations Security Council Resolution 678
Gulf War

The Gulf Warhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#cite_note-28 was an armed campaign waged by a United States-led coalition of 35 nations against Iraq in response to the Iraqi invasion and annexation of Kuwait. ​
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The trick would be to not have Russia Vito the move.
 
gboisjo said:
That's the million dollar question, I'm hoping for a no fly zone ..knock some of those ********ers out of the sky.

View attachment 67377639
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Why would it make sense to help Ukraine fight Russia in the air, yet not on the ground? Either way, it is helping Ukraine directly confront (invading) Russian military forces.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep, but what is that line worth if it allows Ukraine (or Taiwan?) to be taken by force? If (when?) Iran joins the nuclear nation‘s club then what?
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What's the line where the world decides that risking a nuclear holocaust is worth it?
 
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