Should Men Have a Say?

[Caedon]

Thats why the potential daddy should end the life of the zygote in the womans belly. Simple assault charges...no real harm...and no need for 18 years of child support.

Wow, and I was disgusted with the guys that thought not paying child support would be a good idea.

Their selfish notions look saintly next to this trash.

 

[VanceMack]

Wow, and I was disgusted with the guys that thought not paying child support would be a good idea.

Their selfish notions look saintly next to this trash.

Why is that a bad idea? Its a simple assault...a quick kick to the stomach. And dont get me wrong...the guy should be charged...but wouldnt it solve the problem?

And besides, it should be every mans human right to NOT be a father.

 

[ricksfolly]

On the issue of whether men should be allowed to voice their opinions re: abortion policy and vote on laws like everyone else, of course. >>

Husbands should be concerned, yes, but definitely not other nosy men who have no personal stake in it. It's none of their f**ken business.

ricksfolly

 

[Jerry]

On the issue of whether men should be allowed to voice their opinions re: abortion policy and vote on laws like everyone else, of course. >>

Husbands should be concerned, yes, but definitely not other nosy men who have no personal stake in it. It's none of their f**ken business.

ricksfolly

There's general policy which everyone has to obey, and then there's individual cases.

The OP doesn't clarify which one it's asking about.

 

[VanceMack]

On the issue of whether men should be allowed to voice their opinions re: abortion policy and vote on laws like everyone else, of course. >>

Husbands should be concerned, yes, but definitely not other nosy men who have no personal stake in it. It's none of their f**ken business.

ricksfolly

You COULD say that about EVERY 'murder' tho.

 

[Marilyn Monroe]

And as I've said multiple times, that's why I support the notion of child support. As I've also said multiple times, I will still use the example of child support to point out how the system is not fair.

Women pay child support, also.

1 guy in a 1000 will actually want the kid? Proof please. Furthermore, I've heard something that should solve that.... wait a minute... wait a minute. Ahh yes, perhaps then the woman should not have had sex.

It was like 27% of young men in 2002. Read article below;

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/27/1035683304863.html

See what I did... again? This argument boils down to two sides: Side A says 'we can sleep around and get abortions if we don't want kids' but then says to Side B, 'hey, if you don't want kids, don't sleep around.' It's an entitlement mentality that women, in the context of pregnancy, are a special class of citizen and should have the right and power to control a man's property [his paycheck] for the next 18 years should she choose to have the child.

Flip this over and we see that the injustice and inequality is exacerbated in the other direction: a couple wants children. The woman gets pregnant. The man wants her to deliver. She decides she doesn't want the child, even though they've agreed in the past to try to have children. She can get an abortion and he's out of luck, with no choice in the matter, even though he was directly responsible for conception of the child. Again, we see that the modern justice system has decided to give all rights to the women and no rights, only responsibility, to the men.

That's unjust.

The woman bears all the burden? Just what the hell is 18 years of child support payments if not a burden? :2wave:

You sound like you got burned with child support. I understand your anger whether you got burned or not. It does seem unfair for men to have to support children they don't want, but at the very least, today, you can have DNA done to make sure the kid is yours. Years ago, many a man paid for kids that weren't his. Women have the choice in the abortion issue because their bodies are the incubator's for 9mos. Any woman can tell you, it's no picnic, going through labor, it is one of the most painful things a human can endure, plus it permanently alters the woman's body, and can cause death with or without an abortion. Then after the kid is born you have to do a lot of work to keep it healthy and happy, many, many things. The child support is the easy part.

 

[Goshin]

Women work to provide for their children too. Only women typically don't get paid as much as men do. So there's unfairness in that.

Also, men should be just as careful of their reproductive rights as women should be. If a man doesn't want to get a woman, then they should take precautions. And also lobby for a male birth control pill.

Said it before, I'll say it again: women do get paid less on average "at the same job" than men do, and the main reason is because, on average, women work fewer hours than men do.

Yes, of course there are exceptions, but after 30 years in the wonderful world of work, I've seen it over and over: most men work more hours. If you work more hours you get paid more, and if you're available for overtime or weekends when they need you, well by gosh they may just give you a better raise than the gal who can't work over because she needs to pick up her kids, and who is out 3 days a month due to something relating to her kids.

I've been a single father for 12 years, and I've been in that boat... don't think I have not missed out on raises and promotions because I've had to decline OT and be out for my son's sake. I know what I'm talking about. Well, that's life... you choose your priorities and you deal with it.

Also, m'friend, I've been around and known lots of people... and for every "deadbeat Dad" who doesn't keep up his child support, I can name a "deadbeat Mom" who spends half the support she gets on herself, while her kids go without things.

This whole big issue is not all one-sided as some seem to think... well actually it is one-sided, in that the ladies get to make virtually all the decisions while the men pay 50-80% of the cost of those decisions.

The argument that men "should be just as careful as women" doesn't wash either. If the woman was being careful we wouldn't have 1.2 million abortions a year.

As I've said, turn that statement around and make it "women shouldn't have unprotected or inadequately protected sex if they don't want to deal with 9 months of pregnancy" and the pro-choice crowd has a screaming hissy fit.

 

[Caedon]

Women pay child support, also.

Women financially support the baby only if they choose to do so. They can avoid that choice by aborting or adopting. Men have no such recourse.

It was like 27% of young men in 2002. Read article below;

More men don't want children: study - theage.com.au

So we've gone from your silly claim that it is 1 in a 1000 to 27%. That's a significant jump. :2wave:

Regardless, your point is still irrelevant, even if the percentage were .1%. The fact remains that women can exert authority over the property rights of men without any input from the man. That's unjust.

You sound like you got burned with child support.

Nope, happily married with 3 kids. And I love the notion of child support. I think guys that ditch it are scumbags who ought to have their entire lives repossessed to pay for the needs of their children.

It does seem unfair for men to have to support children they don't want, but at the very least, today, you can have DNA done to make sure the kid is yours.

Thank you, that's my point.

Women have the choice in the abortion issue because their bodies are the incubator's for 9mos.

Funny you bring up 9 mos, because if the woman's body is the incubator for 9 months, the man's paycheck is often the child's intubator for 18 years.

Any woman can tell you, it's no picnic, going through labor, it is one of the most painful things a human can endure, plus it permanently alters the woman's body, and can cause death with or without an abortion.

Agreed.

Then after the kid is born you have to do a lot of work to keep it healthy and happy, many, many things. The child support is the easy part.

Agreed.

 

[rivrrat]

Insofar as having a legal say as to whether or not a specific woman can or must have an abortion, no... a man should have no say whatsoever. Only the pregnant woman should be able to choose if she will have an abortion or not.

Should they have a say in our political system via voting, etc? Well duh, of course.

Also, there should be something in place to allow men to opt out of parental and therefore financial responsibility should he voice his objection to the birth of a child during the time period that a pregnant woman can still have a legal abortion. There should be some way for a man and woman to stand before a judge while she can still legally abort and the father state unequivocally that he does not want a child and thereby be granted a 'pass' on financial responsibility. Then the woman can decide for herself -with full knowledge of the father's feeling and lack of obligation. If she chooses to have the child, that burden is on her entirely.

 

[1069]

Insofar as having a legal say as to whether or not a specific woman can or must have an abortion, no... a man should have no say whatsoever. Only the pregnant woman should be able to choose if she will have an abortion or not.

Should they have a say in our political system via voting, etc? Well duh, of course.

Also, there should be something in place to allow men to opt out of parental and therefore financial responsibility should he voice his objection to the birth of a child during the time period that a pregnant woman can still have a legal abortion. There should be some way for a man and woman to stand before a judge while she can still legally abort and the father state unequivocally that he does not want a child and thereby be granted a 'pass' on financial responsibility. Then the woman can decide for herself -with full knowledge of the father's feeling and lack of obligation. If she chooses to have the child, that burden is on her entirely.

I am not inclined to concern myself with how society could make things easier on men's wallets, when men's only effort to address the perceived "unfairness" appears to be to whimper ineffectually about how they'd like to abrogate women's human rights by stripping them of their bodily sovereignty.

I'm sure I don't need to point out to anyone with half a brain that parents with primary custody receive child support, regardless of their gender. Child support is not a "men's" issue.

Abortion, however, is a women's issue.

 

[Caedon]

I am not inclined to concern myself with how society could make things easier on men's wallets, when men's only effort to address the perceived "unfairness" appears to be to whimper ineffectually about how they'd like to abrogate women's human rights by stripping them of their bodily sovereignty.

I'm sure I don't need to point out to anyone with half a brain that parents with primary custody receive child support, regardless of their gender. Child support is not a "men's" issue.

Abortion, however, is a women's issue.

The ostrich approach is strong in this one.

---

Tell me, do you really believe it to be fair that a man can have his paycheck significantly reduced for 18 years should he choose to have sex? While at the same time the woman can choose either abortion or adoption, both without his input?

You really find it to be fair that the woman controls whether or not the man will have to pay child support, regardless of his wishes, stated intentions, or previous communications on whether or not he intended to procreate?

If so, wave that burning bra just a little bit harder.

 

[rivrrat]

I am not inclined to concern myself with how society could make things easier on men's wallets, when men's only effort to address the perceived "unfairness" appears to be to whimper ineffectually about how they'd like to abrogate women's human rights by stripping them of their bodily sovereignty.

I'm sure I don't need to point out to anyone with half a brain that parents with primary custody receive child support, regardless of their gender. Child support is not a "men's" issue.

Abortion, however, is a women's issue.

In the case of a woman paying child support, she CHOSE to have the child. Thus, it is a non-issue. A man has no choice in the matter and the law should reflect that when it comes to child support. If a woman chooses to have a child, while knowing full well that the father does not want it, she should expect no financial support from the man and the law should back him up on that.

That stand in no way limits a woman's right to choose.

 

[1069]

The ostrich approach is strong in this one.

---

Tell me, do you really believe it to be fair that a man can have his paycheck significantly reduced for 18 years should he choose to have sex? While at the same time the woman can choose either abortion or adoption, both without his input?

You really find it to be fair that the woman controls whether or not the man will have to pay child support, regardless of his wishes, stated intentions, or previous communications on whether or not he intended to procreate?

If so, wave that burning bra just a little bit harder.

If those things were true, I might care, but they're not.
Child support isn't specific to men.

If I thought you actually cared, I might feel sorry for you.
But your only proffered solutions to the alleged problem seem to be that women, collectively, should be forbidden by law to abort, or that men should have input into whether or not specific women abort.

And those ideas would do nothing to mitigate this problem that you claim exists. They'd just hurt women. They'd reduce women to subhuman status in the eyes of the law. They wouldn't help you any, though, because- by your own reckoning- they'd just result in even more unwanted children being born, and even more men having to pay even more money.

So your rants seem akin to a person born with facial deformities whining that it's not fair that the government won't pass a law forcing others to disfigure their faces as well. it's not fair, it's not fair, it's NOT FAIR!!

I really have no sympathy for this. I find it tedious and childish.

 

[Jerry]

If those things were true, I might care, but they're not.
Child support isn't specific to men.

If I thought you actually cared, I might feel sorry for you.
But your only proffered solutions to the alleged problem seem to be that women, collectively, should be forbidden by law to abort, or that men should have input into whether or not specific women abort.

And those ideas would do nothing to mitigate this problem that you claim exists. They'd just hurt women. They'd reduce women to subhuman status in the eyes of the law. They wouldn't help you any, though, because- by your own reckoning- they'd just result in even more unwanted children being born, and even more men having to pay even more money.

So your rants seem akin to a person born with facial deformities whining that it's not fair that the government won't pass a law forcing others to disfigure their faces as well. it's not fair, it's not fair, it's NOT FAIR!!

I really have no sympathy for this. I find it tedious and childish.

Wow, that's exactly how I feel about gay marriage.

 

[spud_meister]

Wow, that's exactly how I feel about gay marriage.

that it reduces women to sub-human status?

 

[1069]

that it reduces women to sub-human status?

No; he means "it would result in even more unwanted children being born".

:lol:

 

[Jerry]

that it reduces women to sub-human status?

That it's just a bunch of people with facial deformities running around crying "that's not fair" :2wave:

 

[Marilyn Monroe]

Women financially support the baby only if they choose to do so. They can avoid that choice by aborting or adopting. Men have no such recourse.

Men and women have the choice whether to have or not to have sex. I think it's as just as it can be.

There are many things that can be considered unjust, but once there's a human life all parties involved in the creation become responsible. The woman has the choice cause her body and judgment are involved. It's her body one way or the other. Abort or not, it's still her body going through the process. The man has zero involvement.

So we've gone from your silly claim that it is 1 in a 1000 to 27%. That's a significant jump. :2wave:

I was just guessing, so I looked it up.

Regardless, your point is still irrelevant, even if the percentage were .1%. The fact remains that women can exert authority over the property rights of men without any input from the man. That's unjust.

They can go to court. Good luck on that one.:2wave:

 

[misterman]

Women financially support the baby only if they choose to do so. They can avoid that choice by aborting or adopting. Men have no such recourse.

Sure they do. They can not have sex.

 

[misterman]

Tell me, do you really believe it to be fair that a man can have his paycheck significantly reduced for 18 years should he choose to have sex? While at the same time the woman can choose either abortion or adoption, both without his input?

No, it's not fair. It's not fair that men can pee standing up either.

Get over it.

 

[Panache]

I am not inclined to concern myself with how society could make things easier on men's wallets, when men's only effort to address the perceived "unfairness" appears to be to whimper ineffectually about how they'd like to abrogate women's human rights by stripping them of their bodily sovereignty.

I'm sure I don't need to point out to anyone with half a brain that parents with primary custody receive child support, regardless of their gender. Child support is not a "men's" issue.

Abortion, however, is a women's issue.

Being forced to support unwanted children is a men's issue though, and that is what we are talking about.

Women can avoid paying child support on an unwanted child by aborting it. It seems to me, that if she is going to choose to rear a child that she knows the dude has no interest in, she should expect to raise it on her own, without help from any unwilling participants.

And its not like guys got screwed by biology here, since guys could naturally just choose not to pay for the kid. The women in our society can use the government to force them to pay for kids they don't want. That isn't some biological facial deformity that men are whining about. That is an unfair and one sided system.

 

[Panache]

No, it's not fair. It's not fair that men can pee standing up either.

Get over it.

Women are allowed to pee standing up too. We aren't talking about biology here. Biologically, things are fair. The woman chooses whether to keep the kid, and the guy chooses where or not he wants to pay for the kid.

The problem here is that the women are using the government to force the guys to pay for unwanted children against there will. The government never passed a law prohibiting women from peeing standing up.

 

[misterman]

Being forced to support unwanted children is a men's issue though, and that is what we are talking about.

Women can avoid paying child support on an unwanted child by aborting it. It seems to me, that if she is going to choose to rear a child that she knows the dude has no interest in, she should expect to raise it on her own, without help from any unwilling participants.

Sorry, but a dude can't just declare he has no interest in raising a child and walk away, just because the mother has the right and physical ability to do so.

 

[misterman]

Women are allowed to pee standing up too.

And men are allowed to have abortions too, when they get pregnant.

The problem here is that the women are using the government to force the guys to pay for unwanted children against there will.

Tough.

Don't want unwanted kids? Don't get a woman pregnant. Really simple.

 

[Panache]

Sorry, but a dude can't just declare he has no interest in raising a child and walk away, just because the mother has the right and physical ability to do so.

Why not? The dude has the physical ability to do so, why doesn't he have the right?