Should hereditarians and race realists be allowed to express their opinions?

[aociswundumho]

White Supremacists should be able to express their opinions, and society should be able to shun them for doing so.

And no, I won't use the politically correct terms the OP wants to use. It's White Supremacy.

So all "race realists" are white supremacists?

That doesn't seem right.

 

[Aurora]

You hit the nail right on the head, excellent post!

'Hiroshima in 1945 was in ashes & ruin at that same time Detroit was the mightiest industrial hub on earth.
70 years later Hiroshima is a gleaming city & Detroit a burnt out shell.' Why? Could it be that the USA
up until that time period practiced nationalism itself before the age of 'diversity' since then our
fortunes have tended downward.

'Reduced to rubble in 1945 & only the size of Montana with fewer resouces than Momtana Japan still can boast of an
economy 1/3 of ours & in some ways our superior in manufacturing & technology.' It rotates with Germany as either
the 3rd or 4th economic power in the world depending on which had the better year.

Maybe we should take a page out of the Japanese playbook. Japan refuses to open up their country to
immigration even though they have a BIRTH RATE that is more accurately described as a death rate.
Has Japan suffered from a lack of diversity?

Japan & China practice economic & ethnonationalism' & we do not. The success of nationalism is there for all to see,
"Pity the nation divided into fragments, each fragment deeming itself a nation' gibran 1934

The Nordic countries many admire had very high standards of living and very low crime. They were very homogenous. That is rapidly changing.

 

[slick]

The Nordic countries many admire had very high standards of living and very low crime. They were very homogenous. That is rapidly changing.

Yes, but their flirtation with 'Diversity' is more recent & less worrisome as ours.
Ours began during the administration of LBJ over 50 years ago.
The most destructive lies ever witnessed in this country were uttered by Ted Kennedy on the Senate floor in 1965.
Until 1965 Immigration laws were written with one goal to preserve the European character of the country.' That year Ted Kennedy
reassured the congress that the new law he & Lyndon Johnson were championing would not alter the nations ethnic character.
'Contrary to the charges in some quarters this bill will not inundate America from the most populated & deprived nations of Africa
& Asia.' Senator Ted Kennedy, asserted that the bill would not affect US demographic mix.

The founders stated the core principle that government exists to establish justice, tranquility, defense, promote the general welfare of the
American people and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, - not to do so for the entire earth's population.

So yes, we should abandon any policy, including immigration, that is not in the interests of the people of the United States,
or their descendants, and that threaten the tranquility, welfare, and blessings of liberty to our people.

 

[ataraxia]

Yes, but their flirtation with 'Diversity' is more recent & less worrisome as ours.
Ours began during the administration of LBJ over 50 years ago.
The most destructive lies ever witnessed in this country were uttered by Ted Kennedy on the Senate floor in 1965.
Until 1965 Immigration laws were written with one goal to preserve the European character of the country.' That year Ted Kennedy
reassured the congress that the new law he & Lyndon Johnson were championing would not alter the nations ethnic character.
'Contrary to the charges in some quarters this bill will not inundate America from the most populated & deprived nations of Africa
& Asia.' Senator Ted Kennedy, asserted that the bill would not affect US demographic mix.

The founders stated the core principle that government exists to establish justice, tranquility, defense, promote the general welfare of the
American people and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, - not to do so for the entire earth's population.

So yes, we should abandon any policy, including immigration, that is not in the interests of the people of the United States,
or their descendants, and that threaten the tranquility, welfare, and blessings of liberty to our people.

George Washington says you are wrong.

“I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong.”
-George Washington

“Our new nation) promises to afford a capacious asylum for the poor & persecuted of the Earth.”
-George Washington

“The bosom of America is open to receive not only the Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations And Religions; whom we shall wellcome to a participation of all our rights and previleges, if by decency and propriety of conduct they appear to merit the enjoyment.”
-George Washington

 

[Schism]

I'll always support legal immigration, a process for seasonal migrants, and a haven for legitimate refugees.

I'll always oppose illegal immigration, exploited people groups, human trafficking, factory and meatpacking slaves, and gang members/drug runners.

There are processes and procedures. Follow the law. Get in line. Wait your turn. Every American needs to be working first.

 

[Moot]

No black run country has done that.

What gets me is why you think having WMDs makes a race more civilized.

 

[Questerr]

So all "race realists" are white supremacists?

That doesn't seem right.

“Race realist” is like “white nationalist”: a politically correct term used to take the edge off of White Supremacy.

 

[PirateMk1]

I'll always support legal immigration, a process for seasonal migrants, and a haven for legitimate refugees.

I'll always oppose illegal immigration, exploited people groups, human trafficking, factory and meatpacking slaves, and gang members/drug runners.

There are processes and procedures. Follow the law. Get in line. Wait your turn. Every American needs to be working first.

Nothing more on the subject need be said.

 

[PirateMk1]

What gets me is why you think having WMDs makes a race more civilized.

If everyone has WMDs then the penalty for not being civilized is quite expensive and self destructive. If only a few have WND's then those that have them can be much less accommodating and uncivilized to those that don't. The armed society tends to be the polite society.

 

[slick]

George Washington says you are wrong.

“I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong.”
-George Washington

“Our new nation) promises to afford a capacious asylum for the poor & persecuted of the Earth.”
-George Washington

“The bosom of America is open to receive not only the Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations And Religions; whom we shall wellcome to a participation of all our rights and previleges, if by decency and propriety of conduct they appear to merit the enjoyment.”
-George Washington

Washington offered those kind words to newly arrived immigrants to NYC from the Kingdom of Ireland who some of the native found upon,
a nice gesture and hardly out of character for the founders! After all only the English had more signers of the founding documents than the Irish.
6 of the founding signers were Irish born or Irish ethnics. I think one Carroll was catholic from Maryland. You can't really have thought
he was interested in recruiting every earthly human. For all practical purposes to the founders Western Europe was the Earth.

When Washington took his oath of office as president the thirteen states were 99% protestant. At that time 1790 US citizenship
was opened up for "free white persons" of 'moral character'. No others need apply. The English ethnics were most prominent along with
Scots, Irish, Welsh & Dutch. When the Germans came shortly afterward Ben Franklin was alarmed.

In Britain the most forward thinking country in Europe at that time the three pillars
of conservatism were 1) the monarchy 2) the established church 3) the aristocracy.

In creating the new nation Washington & the founders:
In a stroke of enlightened progressive genius they managed to eliminate the first two pillars but it did seem that the aristocracy
remained although minus the snobby titals.

In fact in Jefferson's letters to Adams he relates just that:

In Jefferson's letters to Adams he dwells on a natural aristocracy among men.
Thomas Jefferson, on Aristocracy - letter to John Adams
Jefferson as did Adams & their peers saw themselves as the aristocratic elite to whom the new country was best entrusted.

In Jefferson's letters to Lafeyette he doubles down that not only are there superior men but there are
superior peoples ' 'The yeomanry of the US are not the canaille of Paris’

 

[Mithrae]

If everyone has WMDs then the penalty for not being civilized is quite expensive and self destructive. If only a few have WND's then those that have them can be much less accommodating and uncivilized to those that don't. The armed society tends to be the polite society.

"If nukes are outlawed only outlaws have nukes!"

 

[Moot]

Washington offered those kind words to newly arrived immigrants to NYC from the Kingdom of Ireland who some of the native found upon,
a nice gesture and hardly out of character for the founders! After all only the English had more signers of the founding documents than the Irish.
6 of the founding signers were Irish born or Irish ethnics. I think one Carroll was catholic from Maryland. You can't really have thought
he was interested in recruiting every earthly human. For all practical purposes to the founders Western Europe was the Earth.....<snip>....

If Washington had meant just the Irish he would've said so....but he didn't. He clearly meant people of all nations on earth.

Atraxia's post #429....

“I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong.”​

-George Washington​

​

“Our new nation) promises to afford a capacious asylum for the poor & persecuted of the Earth.”​

-George Washington​

​

“The bosom of America is open to receive not only the Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations And Religions; whom we shall wellcome to a participation of all our rights and previleges, if by decency and propriety of conduct they appear to merit the enjoyment.”​

-George Washington​

 

[PirateMk1]

"If nukes are outlawed only outlaws have nukes!"

If they can afford them.

 

[SmartCat]

“Race realist” is like “white nationalist”: a politically correct term used to take the edge off of White Supremacy.

Convinced race realists like me are hated by white supremacists.This is because we enjoy reminding them how intelligent and successful most Jews and Orientals are.

 

[SmartCat]

So all "race realists" are white supremacists?

That doesn't seem right.

A sincere race realist acknowledges that Orientals tend to be more intelligent, law abiding, and monogamous than whites.

 

[SmartCat]

Science says "hereditarians and race realists" are poop.


How Science and Genetics are Reshaping the Race Debate of the 21st Century - Science in the News (harvard.edu)

There's No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label (nationalgeographic.com)

The Ideology of Racism: Misusing Science to Justify Racial Discrimination | United Nations

Assumptions like that can only prevail in an environment where heriditarians and race realists are suppressed. The races differ significantly in average ability levels and behavior. Gene alleles are being discovered for intelligence and criminal behavior. Adopted children resemble their birth parents more than the people who adopt them.

 

[SmartCat]

If that legislation were properly adhered to in all instances and not undermined by many states, and indeed in the Supreme Court it might have had a fighting chance. Unfortunately as the saying goes, rules were made to be broken and a simple law about respecting the civil and voting rights of others has proven too hard to follow by many states and institutions and, coupled with historical economic inequality, it hasn't been given the proper chance to bring millions up out of poverty and crime.

This year marks the 50th anniversary of President Lyndon B. Johnson's launch of the War on Poverty. In January 1964, Johnson declared "unconditional war on poverty in America." Since then, the taxpayers have spent $22 trillion on Johnson's war

The War on Poverty: 50 years of failure

This year marks the 50th anniversary of President Lyndon B. Johnson's launch of the War on Poverty. In January 1964, Johnson declared "unconditional war on poverty in America." Since then, the taxpayers have spent $22 trillion on Johnson's war. Adjusted for inflation, that's three times the cost...

www.heritage.org

 

[SmartCat]

The type of research you’re referencing has been discredited.

It has been condemned and silenced. It has not been refuted.

 

[SmartCat]

They can, but they'd best be prepared for the ridicule and scorn their inhumane and unscientific beliefs attract. I mean, it really is bunkum.

Race is an issue where the more one ignores scientific facts the more enlightened one is said to be.

 

[SmartCat]

Again, what is the point? Why won’t you answer this question? If we find that a particular race is “lesser” when compared to another, how exactly should that be reflected in society?
Why are you so intent on studying this? What are you trying to prove? That you are genetically superior to another race? And then what? Should we give the white supremacist organizations more power to make decisions for society? What’s the bottom line that you are striving for?

As a white Gentile I freely acknowledge have higher IQ averages and incomes than white Gentiles.

 

[Mithrae]

Convinced race realists like me are hated by white supremacists.This is because we enjoy reminding them how intelligent and successful most Jews and Orientals are.

Nonsense; even Hitler expressed admiration for far Eastern civilizations. Perhaps we're about to be told that Hitler was not racist?

Nazi racial theories - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some thoughts in response to questions on another forum...

If a white person also believes Asians are even smarter, does that mean they're not racist?​

I've seen this implied or stated by folk who've presented this data on another forum, that because they are promoting Asians/east Asians as being even smarter than Europeans, that must mean that they're just reporting objective facts. But it's obviously possible to be bigoted against black or hispanic people without being bigoted against Asian people; and it's also possible to be a white nationalist or even a white supremicist believing in overall white superiority while acknowledging a slight Asian advantage in this one area. Believing that a different race from one's own has a higher average intelligence does not prove that a person isn't racist.​

​

Is it ever racist to believe that white people are smarter than black people? If so, when and why?​

I would say that acceptance of facts is never racist. But since intelligence is certainly our most distinctive and almost indisputably our most important characteristic as a species, saying that one 'race' is smarter than another is rather different from saying that they're taller or better runners or more cold-adapted etc.; parroting data or even stereotypes along those lines is obviously not as offensive as doing so in the case of intelligence, true or not. A white (or Asian) person who is racist would more likely embrace information on IQ gaps with little or no hesitation or nuance, whereas one who is not racist would be more reluctant to do so and try to find other ways of explaining or interpreting the reported data. In particular, folk who express it as above, simply that "white people are smarter than black/hispanic people" - rather than emphasizing that these are (at most) averages and that an appreciable fraction of black people would still be smarter than the average white person even blindly taking the data at face value - are quite probably conveying a racist perspective (or perhaps just somewhat below average intelligence themselves!).​

Obviously your 2019 post/s expressing your desire to see more black kids expelled from schools, more black people in prison, abortion and sterilization programs targeted towards black communities and so on don't even have any kind of pretense at all.

 

[Allan]

Race realism is the belief that race is an important biological classification for humans - similar to sub species among other animals - that the races differ significantly in average intelligence, criminal and sexual behavior, and that these differences are the result of evolving in response to different population pressures for thousands of years.

I read about a study that was done many years ago on children of US servicemembers stationed in Germany. What made this study interesting is that the children of Caucasian and Black parents had grown up in the same social/economic conditions. They went to the same schools, had the same standard of living etc.

What the study found is that the children of both races were indistinguishable in test scores, propensity to commit crime and other measures that usually separate races stateside. The conclusion was that environmental factors, and not race, impact development factors.

This...

Race realism is the belief that race is an important biological classification for humans - similar to sub species among other animals

Is scientific garbage.

 

[Mithrae]

I read about a study that was done many years ago on children of US servicemembers stationed in Germany. What made this study interesting is that the children of Caucasian and Black parents had grown up in the same social/economic conditions. They went to the same schools, had the same standard of living etc.

What the study found is that the children of both races were indistinguishable in test scores, propensity to commit crime and other measures that usually separate races stateside. The conclusion was that environmental factors, and not race, impact development factors.

Studies done with Ethiopian immigrant students coming from extraordinarily poor rural circumstances tested in Israel by different IQ tests had, in pre-intervention tests, demonstrated lower test scores than the Israeli norm. However, after a short but intensive teaching process the Ethiopian immigrant children performed at about the same level as the Israeli norm (Tzuriel & Kaufman, 1999; Kozulin, 1998).​

~ https://www.africaresource.com/sci-...ligence-and-iq-are-blacks-smarter-than-whites​

Plenty of other similar studies to be found at that link, including potential cultural biases of IQ testing generally.

A study by Serpell (1979) highlighted this well. Zambian and English children were asked to reproduce patterns using three media alternatives (wire, clay, or pencil and paper). It was found that the Zambian children excelled in the wire medium with which they were most familiar, exceeding the English children in that task; while the English children were best with pencil and paper. Both groups were found to perform equally well with clay. Thus, children performed better with the materials that were more familiar to them from their own environments. A study by Carraher et al (1985) also demonstrated examples of this effect, this time in a group of Brazilian children. The study found that the same children who were able to do the mathematics needed to run their street businesses were often unable to do “the same” mathematics when presented in a more formal (grade schooling) context.​

This...

Is scientific garbage.

It's not scientific at all, just garbage. If humans were sorted into categories based on inter-group genetic differences (intergroup differences themselves representing only about 15% compared to the 85% of variation found within local groups) the resulting races wouldn't be 'black,' 'white' or anything like the term is usually used. If I read this study correctly (Tishkoff et al, The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans; Science 2009 - pdf), there is as much genetic diversity within India as there is in Central Asia, the Middle East and Europe combined (figure 3). More startlingly, there's more genetic diversity within Africa than in the rest of the world combined.

In other words if we imagined there to be an indigenous Oceanic race and a native American race, in terms of actual genetic diversity we'd then need to say that there are 3-5 east Asian 'races,' 6-10 Indian 'races,' and over 30 African races. Obviously that is not the kind of "important biological classification" which self-proclaimed 'race realists' are interested in!

View attachment 67201932

 

[Allan]

Studies done with Ethiopian immigrant students coming from extraordinarily poor rural circumstances tested in Israel by different IQ tests had, in pre-intervention tests, demonstrated lower test scores than the Israeli norm. However, after a short but intensive teaching process the Ethiopian immigrant children performed at about the same level as the Israeli norm (Tzuriel & Kaufman, 1999; Kozulin, 1998).​

~ https://www.africaresource.com/sci-...ligence-and-iq-are-blacks-smarter-than-whites​

Plenty of other similar studies to be found at that link, including potential cultural biases of IQ testing generally.

A study by Serpell (1979) highlighted this well. Zambian and English children were asked to reproduce patterns using three media alternatives (wire, clay, or pencil and paper). It was found that the Zambian children excelled in the wire medium with which they were most familiar, exceeding the English children in that task; while the English children were best with pencil and paper. Both groups were found to perform equally well with clay. Thus, children performed better with the materials that were more familiar to them from their own environments. A study by Carraher et al (1985) also demonstrated examples of this effect, this time in a group of Brazilian children. The study found that the same children who were able to do the mathematics needed to run their street businesses were often unable to do “the same” mathematics when presented in a more formal (grade schooling) context.​

It's not scientific at all, just garbage. If humans were sorted into categories based on inter-group genetic differences (intergroup differences themselves representing only about 15% compared to the 85% of variation found within local groups) the resulting races wouldn't be 'black,' 'white' or anything like the term is usually used. If I read this study correctly (Tishkoff et al, The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans; Science 2009 - pdf), there is as much genetic diversity within India as there is in Central Asia, the Middle East and Europe combined (figure 3). More startlingly, there's more genetic diversity within Africa than in the rest of the world combined.

In other words if we imagined there to be an indigenous Oceanic race and a native American race, in terms of actual genetic diversity we'd then need to say that there are 3-5 east Asian 'races,' 6-10 Indian 'races,' and over 30 African races. Obviously that is not the kind of "important biological classification" which self-proclaimed 'race realists' are interested in!

View attachment 67201932

Excellent post and information.

 

[ataraxia]

Washington offered those kind words to newly arrived immigrants to NYC from the Kingdom of Ireland who some of the native found upon, a nice gesture and hardly out of character for the founders! ...You can't really have thought he was interested in recruiting every earthly human. For all practical purposes to the founders Western Europe was the Earth.

LOL, again George Washington says you are wrong. When recruiting workmen for Mount Vernon, he wrote to his agent:

"If they be good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa, or Europe; they may be Mohammedans [Muslims], Jews, or Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists."
-George Washington

“When Washington took his oath of office as president the thirteen states were 99% protestant. At that time 1790 US citizenship
was opened up for "free white persons" of 'moral character'. No others need apply.”

Really your imagination and ability to just make stuff up and project never ceases to amaze.

But Thomas Jefferson says you are wrong:

“The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. it still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally past; and a singular proposition proved that it’s protection of opinion was meant to be universal. where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the words ‘Jesus Christ’ so that it should read ‘a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion’ the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it’s protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.”
-Thomas Jefferson


————-
You really need to just stop making stuff up and read some history.